Was it right in retrospect to change Moore's personality after TMWTGG?

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  • Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    [q
    I sometimes wonder what novels some people have read here, because I found Fleming's work much more comical, bizarre and larger-than-life than what people say here. I don't recognize Craig's Bond or his films at all when I read Fleming. I've read all the novels many times, and I always feel like I'm watching a Moore film when I read one.

    The giant squid and the Garden of Death were the only really fantastical element of Flemings books. And since the books were now following the films at that point. YOLT was 1963/4. I always thought he had one eye on a cinematic treatment with that book.

    Fleming wrote quite a lot of "absurd" stuff long before the (official) films hit the screen. Dr No, arguably his most absurd book was written four years before the film was made.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited May 2012 Posts: 40,976
    I loved Moore's films and what he brought to the series, and it's nice to see that, within these forums, lots of us have different favorite actors as Bond.

    I'm curious as to if Lazenby is anyone's favorite.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Maybe Bond leaves, to meet somebody or fetch something, and is attacked by Quantum, has a dramatic shootout/fight somewhere (with no/less CGI), and rushes back to find Vesper's corpse with a note on. I think they shouldn't have done the sinking palazzo, too much CGI. I find it intresting that people slag off DAD for using alot of CGI but in CR it's fine.

    Well, yes, the sinking palazzo looked stunning between model, cgi and location filming.

    The cgi in DAD looked like a child scribbling crayon on its face.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2012 Posts: 15,718
    actonsteve wrote:
    Well, yes, the sinking palazzo looked stunning between model, cgi and location filming.

    you are the most biased and predictable member on MI6..... you have to complain about everything Brosnan related and worship everything Craig related.... is the world so black-and-white for you ? you don't even have to post anymore, since we know you are in love with Daniel Craig and hate Pierce Brosnan with a passion. please stop commenting Craig and Brosnan since we already know everything you think about them...... how many times do you have to state your views on PB and DC ? we know everything you think about them, so please let's move on to the other actors....
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2012 Posts: 4,043
    Moore Bond Fleming like? Are we talking about the same actor? The same way some think DC portrayal is all wrong for Bond I feel the same about Moore.

    Moore played Bond like a Playboy and not like a Fleming's spy, he started all that steal a car or plane and wreak havoc with an unlimited budget for mayhem if this is Fleming's Bond I'll eat my hat.

    The Bond we see in the PTS of CR is more IF in one scene than RM is in his whole tenure, seriously that was funny reading Moore is Fleming like, any more jokes?

    GL is not my fav Bond but I prefer him to RM & PB and OHMSS is my no. 1 film of the series.
  • Posts: 1,492
    actonsteve wrote:
    Well, yes, the sinking palazzo looked stunning between model, cgi and location filming.

    you are the most biased and predictable member on MI6..... you have to complain about everything Brosnan related and worship everything Craig related.... is the world so black-and-white for you ? you don't even have to post anymore, since we know you are in love with Daniel Craig and hate Pierce Brosnan with a passion. please stop commenting Craig and Brosnan since we already know everything you think about them...... how many times do you have to state your views on PB and DC ? we know everything you think about them, so please let's move on to the other actors....

    I am not rising to yet another of your tantrums.

  • Posts: 12,837
    actonsteve wrote:
    Maybe Bond leaves, to meet somebody or fetch something, and is attacked by Quantum, has a dramatic shootout/fight somewhere (with no/less CGI), and rushes back to find Vesper's corpse with a note on. I think they shouldn't have done the sinking palazzo, too much CGI. I find it intresting that people slag off DAD for using alot of CGI but in CR it's fine.

    Well, yes, the sinking palazzo looked stunning between model, cgi and location filming.

    The cgi in DAD looked like a child scribbling crayon on its face.

    It looked good, better than DAD I'm not denying that. But I'm just not a fan of too much CGI, no matter how good it looked. The CGI in the Transformers films looks good but it's still way too much.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2012 Posts: 15,718
    actonsteve wrote:
    I am not rising to yet another of your tantrums.

    lol - I see you have no argument..... :)) apart from constantly worshipping DC and hating PB that is..... =)) you are so predictable ! why do you keep giving us your views on DC and PB when we know all about them ?
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    actonsteve wrote:
    [
    Alot of the stuff they "updated" I don't think they needed to. Why change Bonds 2 kills to get double 0 status? And why change Vespers death to that stupid CGI stuff with the sinking house?

    Why change it? Well, a sinking palazzo is more dramatic then just a corpse with a note on it. I love the palazzzo sinking. Its one of my favourite bits. I love the fight with Craig pulling the bolt out of his back and the bystanders gasping as the thing sinks into the canal.

    Maybe Bond leaves, to meet somebody or fetch something, and is attacked by Quantum, has a dramatic shootout/fight somewhere (with no/less CGI), and rushes back to find Vesper's corpse with a note on. I think they shouldn't have done the sinking palazzo, too much CGI. I find it intresting that people slag off DAD for using alot of CGI but in CR it's fine.

    Where do you find any sorts of CGI in the end of Casino Royale? Because everything was done with models or/and in 007 Stage.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Wasn't the falling house somewhat CGI'd out? ;-)
  • Posts: 2,341
    With the exception of Brosnan, all the Bond actors brought their own take to the role.
    The producers and writers were wise to taylor the films and play to Moore's strengths. Leave Fleming behind? Not too much but can't argue with success.
    Moore had the longest tenue and made the most films. He managed to endear himself to audiences worldwide, due in part to the fact the films were taylored and evolved to fit his strengths.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Wasn't the falling house somewhat CGI'd out? ;-)

    I don't know, but it did look a bit 'fakey' at times. not as bad as the parasurfing scene, but still a stain on what was a perfectly shot film (CR)...

  • Posts: 1,082
    actonsteve wrote:
    [
    Alot of the stuff they "updated" I don't think they needed to. Why change Bonds 2 kills to get double 0 status? And why change Vespers death to that stupid CGI stuff with the sinking house?

    Why change it? Well, a sinking palazzo is more dramatic then just a corpse with a note on it. I love the palazzzo sinking. Its one of my favourite bits. I love the fight with Craig pulling the bolt out of his back and the bystanders gasping as the thing sinks into the canal.
    I wish the would have changed it so that the Venedig action scene is happening, but Vesper is somewhere else and survives the movie, just like most of the main Bond girls. Bond kills everyone and takes the suitcase. Then M finds him and Vesper in an awkward situation. No suicide and depressive drama (no drama at all), please!
  • DRESSED_TO_KILLDRESSED_TO_KILL Suspended
    edited May 2012 Posts: 260
    CR 2006 is the only bond movie most similar to any Fleming Book, which in this case would be CR.

    Yes the movie updated many things from the book to keep modern , but all in all its definitely the only film that borrowed and used the actual basis of a Fleming book and fully interpreted it into the film.

    So to say CR 06 is not Fleming oriented is completely absurd.

    CR'06 completly butchered the novel. And the film itself doesn't have the 'Fleming touch', which makes films like DAF and TMWTGG much closer to Fleming than CR'06... Craig's first film is the least Fleming-esque film in the franchise along with QOS and TWINE.

    Fleming's novels were very much different to the Craig films... imo the novels were closer to a Moore/Connery film than anything else.

    even the darkest, most gritty novel, which imo is MR, was nothing like the overly-seriousness and overly-moody Craig films.... remember the army of Drax' men, all with shaved heads and moustaches ? much closer to the Moore-esque bizarre than Craig's overly-realistic films.....

    I sometimes wonder what novels some people have read here, because I found Fleming's work much more comical, bizarre and larger-than-life than what people say here. I don't recognize Craig's Bond or his films at all when I read Fleming. I've read all the novels many times, and I always feel like I'm watching a Moore film when I read one.

    So moonraker had some guards in it with shaved heads and moustaches? so that makes it more Fleming oriented towards the Moore outings than CR 06 which used the whole basis of the book CR as its template for the whole movie practically.

    Im not sure what you're smoking but please tell me what is.


    Moore's films are anything but Fleming. Was a flying stationwagon in the book TMWTGG? TMWTGG (film)is a disgrace to the book.
  • Posts: 12,526
    I neither thought it was right or wrong to be honest. What i did think was however? Was the fact that Moore could have a much harder edge to him if given the material to work with.
  • Posts: 12,837
    CR 2006 is the only bond movie most similar to any Fleming Book, which in this case would be CR.

    Yes the movie updated many things from the book to keep modern , but all in all its definitely the only film that borrowed and used the actual basis of a Fleming book and fully interpreted it into the film.

    So to say CR 06 is not Fleming oriented is completely absurd.

    CR'06 completly butchered the novel. And the film itself doesn't have the 'Fleming touch', which makes films like DAF and TMWTGG much closer to Fleming than CR'06... Craig's first film is the least Fleming-esque film in the franchise along with QOS and TWINE.

    Fleming's novels were very much different to the Craig films... imo the novels were closer to a Moore/Connery film than anything else.

    even the darkest, most gritty novel, which imo is MR, was nothing like the overly-seriousness and overly-moody Craig films.... remember the army of Drax' men, all with shaved heads and moustaches ? much closer to the Moore-esque bizarre than Craig's overly-realistic films.....

    I sometimes wonder what novels some people have read here, because I found Fleming's work much more comical, bizarre and larger-than-life than what people say here. I don't recognize Craig's Bond or his films at all when I read Fleming. I've read all the novels many times, and I always feel like I'm watching a Moore film when I read one.

    So moonraker had some guards in it with shaved heads and moustaches? so that makes it more Fleming oriented towards the Moore outings than CR 06 which used the whole basis of the book CR as its template for the whole movie practically.

    Im not sure what you're smoking but please tell me what is.


    Moore's films are anything but Fleming. Was a flying stationwagon in the book TMWTGG? TMWTGG (film)is a disgrace to the book.

    Was there free running, an airport bomb and a sinking house in the book CR? Back in the 70s, people enjoyed the campy stuff, so the series had to adapt. Just like they had to adapt the CR book to fit in with the modern day world.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I much prefer Moore in his first two films than many of his later ones personally. I know this is not a popular opinion but for me, Moore hitting his 'stride' to me is just going far too camp and a little un-Bond at the same time. I'm not a fan of it.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,425
    I have to say that although I am not the biggest admirer of CR, I thought the sinking Palazzo was brilliantly done. My understanding is that that sequence was done primarily using a model and with some additional effects using CGI. I thought it looked stunning and was a welcome, hyper-dramatic, traditionally cinematic Bondian note in an otherwise often (IMO) slightly dull and overlong film.

    That said, I would prefer if no CGI appeared in Bond at all. Once you know that it has been used somewhere in the film, you are never sure whether what you are watching is CGI'd or not. IMO, this takes away an important level of intensity and believability. Traditionally the films are OTT, but because the stunts were always real, they had a level of realism that compensated. I think the sinking Palazzo just about passes on that level - daft but not so implausible as to ruin the movie. Actually, quite the reverse - enjoyable OTT, as a good Bond sequence often is.

    And yes, I thought the change in Moore's approach with TSWLM was a wise move. Spy is one of my all time favourites.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited May 2012 Posts: 6,304
    I wish the would have changed it so that the Venedig action scene is happening, but Vesper is somewhere else and survives the movie, just like most of the main Bond girls. Bond kills everyone and takes the suitcase. Then M finds him and Vesper in an awkward situation. No suicide and depressive drama (no drama at all), please!

    Vesper dying is the entire point of CR: "The bitch is dead.'

  • Posts: 1,082
    echo wrote:
    I wish the would have changed it so that the Venedig action scene is happening, but Vesper is somewhere else and survives the movie, just like most of the main Bond girls. Bond kills everyone and takes the suitcase. Then M finds him and Vesper in an awkward situation. No suicide and depressive drama (no drama at all), please!

    Vesper dying is the entire point of CR: "The bitch is dead.'

    He could have said that after killing Le Chiffre "The job is done, the bitch is dead".
    I honestly think they should have skipped her death, same with OHMSS. Tracy could have been a normal Bond girl (no marriage) and survives the movie, only to be never seen again.

  • Samuel001 wrote:
    I much prefer Moore in his first two films than many of his later ones personally. I know this is not a popular opinion but for me, Moore hitting his 'stride' to me is just going far too camp and a little un-Bond at the same time. I'm not a fan of it.

    I would agree with a lot of this, but I'd also add FYEO in this mix if we're talking about the first two Moore entries. Definitely one of Moore's darker and more serious efforts. LALD was a great debut and a classic Bond that surpassed Sir Sean's final EON film in many ways. Say what you want about TMWTGG, but I think Sir Roger is great in this one.

    I don't care for the "hitting his stride" term when referring to Sir Roger's 3rd entry. I think he found his distilled interpretation, but to say stride is almost like saying his first two films were warmups, with which I would totally disagree.

    actonsteve wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    Well, yes, the sinking palazzo looked stunning between model, cgi and location filming.

    you are the most biased and predictable member on MI6..... you have to complain about everything Brosnan related and worship everything Craig related.... is the world so black-and-white for you ? you don't even have to post anymore, since we know you are in love with Daniel Craig and hate Pierce Brosnan with a passion. please stop commenting Craig and Brosnan since we already know everything you think about them...... how many times do you have to state your views on PB and DC ? we know everything you think about them, so please let's move on to the other actors....

    I am not rising to yet another of your tantrums.

    Good call Steve. Please allow me. DC, my young friend, do you know what the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" means? After reading the thread, you were the first person to bring up Craig as soon as people starting slagging your hero. I just talked about this with you not even two weeks ago. It's you who almost without fail drags Craig into conversations where he hasn't been brought up. I should ask you the same thing, why do you keep bringing up Craig when everyone knows everything you think about him?

    Wouldn't be surprised to see Disco issuing some more warnings. It's a shame but sometimes people forget to engage their brain before they start typing :(
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I much prefer Moore in his first two films than many of his later ones personally. I know this is not a popular opinion but for me, Moore hitting his 'stride' to me is just going far too camp and a little un-Bond at the same time. I'm not a fan of it.

    I would agree with a lot of this, but I'd also add FYEO in this mix if we're talking about the first two Moore entries. Definitely one of Moore's darker and more serious efforts. LALD was a great debut and a classic Bond that surpassed Sir Sean's final EON film in many ways. Say what you want about TMWTGG, but I think Sir Roger is great in this one.

    I don't care for the "hitting his stride" term when referring to Sir Roger's 3rd entry. I think he found his distilled interpretation, but to say stride is almost like saying his first two films were warmups, with which I would totally disagree.

    I would without doubt add For Your Eyes Only and Octopussy to the list of solid Moore performances, along with the first two. I think he is, in these films stronger than his others. Indeed "hitting his stride" also implies he got better at said point, when I in fact feel he went in a weaker direction, personally I think this is because of a weaker script in The Spy Who Loved Me - again, non a popular opinion.
  • Posts: 224
    BAIN123 wrote:
    It would be interesting to hear from Fleming enthusiasts particularly. Was it a betrayal of Fleming's dictum to make Bond a more charming "Cary Grant-like character" as opposed to this:



    My personal opinion is that it was the right thing to do. The move away from Fleming is something I'd gladly accept. Moore COULD still be serious however but in much smaller, more appropriate doses.

    Just wanted to say that this scene defines Roger's Bond as being a smartass and a lovable rogue.

  • Posts: 3,333
    Intrinsically there was nothing wrong with Moore's performance in Golden Gun, just a poorly structured story that made Bond appear a bit of a bully rather than a conventional spy. That said, I much prefer this incarnation to the foppish dandy of the later Bonds and wish the writers had not abandoned "this incarnation" so willingly and had instead made improvements to the stories rather than alter his character traits.

    The main problem with Moore's 2nd Bond wasn't Moore himself, it was the badly thought through script and it's execution. The Super Secret Agent vs Supreme Assassin is a great idea and was completely wasted. For starters it didn't need the added twist of Andrea Anders sending Bond the golden bullet with his name inscribed on it as it deflated the final showdown between Bond and Scaramanga, nor did it need the super-weapon to give Bond something to blow up at the end, after all this is a hired assassin not Blofeld.

    If the producers and writers had actually followed through with better action set pieces such as the scene after the "kick in the head" at the dojo, a wonderful moment let down by a stupid schoolgirl catfight afterwards, then this movie might have been better recieved by its fans. As it is it's a lightweight James Bond movie with a heavyweight Bond villain that does nothing and goes nowhere. So what do they do next? Cobble all the best bits of the past Bond movies together and turn Bond into a comedy show piece. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you... TSWLM and its comedy twin MR.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I don't see much change in Moore's personality at all tbh. But I think he became much more confident in TSWLM, he pulled it off effortlessly.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Having revisited several of the Moore films recently, my opinion of Moore as Bond has not changed. Whereas Connery always convinced me he was Bond, Moore always appears to be playing Bond.

    As for Moore being compared with Cary Grant, he just didn't have the polish, the comfort in front of the camera, or the comic timing of Grant.

    The series just became silly during the Moore era.
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    Moores Bond did change a lot from TMWTGG to TSWLM. From being a more harder character to be more of a comic character later. Something that wasn't so good. Perhaps for the box office but not so good for us fans who thinks that the original character basis should be kept. I think Moore did his best performances in LALD and TMWTGG.
  • Posts: 4,762
    MrBond wrote:
    Moores Bond did change a lot from TMWTGG to TSWLM. From being a more harder character to be more of a comic character later. Something that wasn't so good. Perhaps for the box office but not so good for us fans who thinks that the original character basis should be kept. I think Moore did his best performances in LALD and TMWTGG.

    He was exceptionally good in his first two. However, I don't think that's where it stopped, because he really pulled off a nice piece of work with FYEO, and even AVTAK. OP was weaker between those two. As for TSWLM, he had a nice blend of about everything. In MR, it was more on the jokey side, but he did it excellently!
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    After TMWTGG, he did a good job in MR and OP. And the rest of his performences wasn't as good.
  • CrabKey wrote:
    Having revisited several of the Moore films recently, my opinion of Moore as Bond has not changed. Whereas Connery always convinced me he was Bond, Moore always appears to be playing Bond.

    I may have agreed with this in the past, but having finally gotten around to watching some Moore films (I could never get through one even at 13 years old - Moore and his movies were too immature for my tastes) I don't think that it's true.

    The only actor that I ever thought was "playing" - or more accurately, "playing *at*" Bond was Brosnan. He was a better actor than Lazenby and had more charm than Dalton but he didn't have the gravity, the toughness, or the presence. He seemed a little like a little boy trying to be tough - pushing that little bit too hard so you can see he doesn't really believe in it himself.

    As for Moore I used to despise him when I was a kid. Who was this wimpy, punning clown who was pretending to be James Bond? But after many years I realized that he was good at his version of Bond - one that I didn't like. But that isn't the same as his performances being bad. Moore *did* eventually convince me that he was Bond, just not the Bond that I wanted to watch.

    After finally having seen TMWTGG I was quite surprised at how Moore was a bit of a bastard in that film - and I mean that in a good way. I found his performance in LALD a little too comic, and TMWTGG was a nice tip towards a tougher, darker Bond (while still being charming). After finally seeing it - just a few weeks ago - I found myself wishing that they had kept this iteration of Bond - I might have actually liked Moore then. But I guess the disastrous box office forced a big change in direction...

    Moore was never going to be the Second Coming of Connery but he certainly could have been a lot closer if he or the producers wanted him to.

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