SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited March 2020 Posts: 13,978
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton isn't Flemings Bond in LTK. 1 out of 2 ain't bad. Craig isn't Flemings Bond in any of his 4 films.

    Craig might be a better actor than Dalton, I haven't seen much of Daltons work outside Bond (I have probably seen more of Craig, than Dalton). but Craig isn't a cinematic actor. Craigs fan club make him out to be some major movie star. What kind of Wonderland is this? He is a character actor that lucked out on Bond, and only Bond.

    Wise words. Pretty much sums up my views on Craig as well. I saw him in Knives Out the other day and wasn't that impressed. I realised halfway through that he was doing a (half decent) impersonation of Kevin Spacey in House of Cards. It all felt a bit wooden and forced. It made me wish they'd cast Spacey himself, who would have relished the role and stolen every scene.

    Yes Craig is a decent character actor. And his string of underperforming big budget movies outside Bond show he doesn't really have the star power himself. He must have sunk more franchises than pretty much any other actor. How he turned TGWTDT into a turkey I will never know, although Fincher must bear some responsibility.

    Now there's an actor, under different circumstances, I wish had been a Bond Villain. A respected career, flushed down the toilet.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I leave this thread yesterday and here I am 106 posts later. And I read them all. Shows me what I get for going to work and now have hardly anything else to do with coronavirus restrictions limiting things.

    To catch up:

    Always found GE overrated from day 1. It gets a lot of goodwill from many, many fans it seems based on it being the first Bond they saw or discovered through the video game or whatever. I don't hate or dislike it, just find it a very mixed bag. Love the bungee jump, but the flying into the plane thing levels off the enthusiasm. They just didn't know when to leave well enough alone.

    I've always considered the tank chase to be like an outtake from The Blues Brothers, destruction for destruction's sake. It's like the creators sat around in a story conference and asked what type of vehicle Bond hadn't been in and somebody suggested that and away they went.

    Somebody compared LTK to being on par with Lethal Weapon and Die Hard and other actioners of the day, but if that is so then GE is the equivalent of the '90s Schwarzenegger era actioners, even taking a scenario of being trapped in the helicopter and escaping through the ejector seat being the same method Bruce Willis used in Die Hard II. And TND gets slammed by a lot because Bond uses a machine gun a lot, but he does so in GE numerous times also.

    Somebody also mentioned Dalton had a lack of swagger. He had his own style of that, not in your face, more subtle: the way he knocks out the thug in the Barrelhead Bar or the cocky look he gives one of Sanchez's henchmen when being told it's very hard to keep up down there. One of Dalton's strengths is an expression on his face that communicates so much, not so much a physical gesture, that's the sign of a good actor. I suggest if somebody wants a fresh take on his films, just focus on Dalton and you'll discover a lot of what made him a special Bond.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Somebody also mentioned Dalton had a lack of swagger. He had his own style of that, not in your face, more subtle: the way he knocks out the thug in the Barrelhead Bar or the cocky look he gives one of Sanchez's henchmen when being told it's very hard to keep up down there. One of Dalton's strengths is an expression on his face that communicates so much, not so much a physical gesture, that's the sign of a good actor. I suggest if somebody wants a fresh take on his films, just focus on Dalton and you'll discover a lot of what made him a special Bond.

    +1 Bond in Fleming's books is more subtle when it comes to swagger. Dalton knew the right way to play him.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    When I say Dalton lacks the swagger of cinematic Bond, I want to make clear that it's not a slight against his performance because he's very much channeling Fleming's Bond who's always been much more of a prickly character than what audiences were accustomed to from cinematic Bond. Us Bond fans, especially those who read the novels, can at least appreciate how Dalton was able to bring that literary character to life. I'm sure Cubby had hoped audiences would warm to Dalton's take once they accepted that he was doing his own thing and doing it very well. At least the hope seemed to be that people would accept him the way they accepted Moore's different take from Connery.

    Unfortunately we'll never know. That third Dalton film would have been the moment of truth, either he would get a milestone hit like GF, TSWLM, and SF, or it would have underperformed more or less like LTK.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I think Fleming Bond, even when he doubted himself, and his role in the world (see CR when he chats with Mathis and GF up at the bar in the airport), still was a hedonist. He enjoyed women, drugs, alcohol and "avocado pears"; I got the sense that Dalton never captured this-- he "got" the spy on the edge, but never "the spy on the edge" who savoured sex and the avocado pear.

    Craig does-- a hedonist and troubled soul mixed into one bag...
  • Posts: 3,327
    peter wrote: »
    I think Fleming Bond, even when he doubted himself, and his role in the world (see CR when he chats with Mathis and GF up at the bar in the airport), still was a hedonist. He enjoyed women, drugs, alcohol and "avocado pears"; I got the sense that Dalton never captured this-- he "got" the spy on the edge, but never "the spy on the edge" who savoured sex and the avocado pear.

    Craig does-- a hedonist and troubled soul mixed into one bag...

    Yes, I kind of agree with this. Fleming's Bond also enjoyed life to the max - eating good food and drink, fast cars, etc. Nobody embodies this more than Connery, and secondly Moore. Like others have said, by Dalton's third film we may have seen a more rounded performance that could have brought this more to the surface.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 11,425
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton isn't Flemings Bond in LTK. 1 out of 2 ain't bad. Craig isn't Flemings Bond in any of his 4 films.

    Craig might be a better actor than Dalton, I haven't seen much of Daltons work outside Bond (I have probably seen more of Craig, than Dalton). but Craig isn't a cinematic actor. Craigs fan club make him out to be some major movie star. What kind of Wonderland is this? He is a character actor that lucked out on Bond, and only Bond.

    Wise words. Pretty much sums up my views on Craig as well. I saw him in Knives Out the other day and wasn't that impressed. I realised halfway through that he was doing a (half decent) impersonation of Kevin Spacey in House of Cards. It all felt a bit wooden and forced. It made me wish they'd cast Spacey himself, who would have relished the role and stolen every scene.

    Yes Craig is a decent character actor. And his string of underperforming big budget movies outside Bond show he doesn't really have the star power himself. He must have sunk more franchises than pretty much any other actor. How he turned TGWTDT into a turkey I will never know, although Fincher must bear some responsibility.

    Craig did not make TGWTDT a turkey!

    Why don't you just admit you don't like him.

    You have real hard on over Skyfall and how not so good Craig is, it's all getting a bit tiring.

    Have you got yourself some kind of bat signal when Skyfall is mentioned that you must chime in once again?

    You are quite pathetic.

    Blimey, you are nothing if not persistent @Shardlake. You remind me a lot of dear old @Germanlady. Wherever I went on these threads, she was always there shouting and pointing from the sidelines constantly reminding me how sad and obsessive I was. There's something almost reassuring about it. Like an online guardian angel, mixed with a judgemental maiden aunt.

    The funny thing though is that scrolling back through the thread for the last few pages all I can see is some rather good natured, sometimes heated, back and forth about the Bond films and actors. Whatever next!?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Bond Fans: “Craig is so good!”
    Dalton Fans: “Pshhh, not THAT good...”
    Bond Fans: “But better than Broz right?”
    Dalton Fans: “SOULLESS AND CORPORATE!”
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Ah, I remember Germanlady...
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    God, whoever open this thread would be wishing why they did :)) .

    Aside from that for me Dalton is the closest to Fleming bond and Craig is the closest to Cinematic Bond after Connery, if he is able to surpass Connery or not is debatable. Although i have to agree that Craig is by far best actor in the series even in his worst moments. Whenever i am in doubt i always look at their worst moments and see how each of them carries those scenes and i get my answer :)
  • Posts: 3,327
    God, whoever open this thread would be wishing why they did :)) .

    Aside from that for me Dalton is the closest to Fleming bond and Craig is the closest to Cinematic Bond after Connery, if he is able to surpass Connery or not is debatable. Although i have to agree that Craig is by far best actor in the series even in his worst moments. Whenever i am in doubt i always look at their worst moments and see how each of them carries those scenes and i get my answer :)

    Agree with all of this.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 11,425
    Cinematic Bond is surely however each actor defines the character on screen. For me I think Sir Rog is being slightly unfairly overlooked right now. I think after Connery, Moore's interpretation is the most definitive. He maybe a little out of fashion right now (although never out of favour) but his performances at his peak are faultless. He might not have been the greatest actor but he follows through on his wonderful interpretation with consistency, professionalism and a lot of skill. To be honest, with Dalton and Craig I do find myself sometimes conscious I'm watching an "actor" on screen. Never have that with Connery and Moore. People dismiss Rog because he makes it all look so easy and effortless but that frankly is the mark of a talented screen actor.

    There's a plausible case to be made that TSWLM is actually the pinnacle of cinematic Bond.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    God, whoever open this thread would be wishing why they did :)) .

    Aside from that for me Dalton is the closest to Fleming bond and Craig is the closest to Cinematic Bond after Connery, if he is able to surpass Connery or not is debatable. Although i have to agree that Craig is by far best actor in the series even in his worst moments. Whenever i am in doubt i always look at their worst moments and see how each of them carries those scenes and i get my answer :)

    Agreed, I can never say Craig didn't impress me for how much he put into those films.

    Even Connery, though I may rank him as my favorite above Craig, was guilty of slacking in parts during his tenure, though for reasons I understood. Craig, like Moore, never seemed to slouch in the role. He always gave it his all, even when he had as thin material as he did in QOS he actually made something there. That's what makes me appreciate him most as Bond.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Yes the great thing about Moore film's is you can play it whenever you want and enjoy it and problem with any other actor is i have to be in the mood for those kind of film's . Sir Roger always wins if we talk about complete entertaining bond film's, they aren't very serious, personal, emotional or depressing. We all are blessed with such variety of bond film's to enjoy and that is what kept it going for almost 60 years.

    Although when i hear that we have to wait at least 5 years for next bond it gives me serious headache :(
    I mean what the hell am i supposed to watch in the meantime doremon?
  • Posts: 11,425
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Moore won our popularity poll just a year or two ago, I believe. He's appreciated by the bulk of our membership.

    The silent majority!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited March 2020 Posts: 7,582
    Shardlake wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    In the same way that SF is regarded overrated because of how the general public perceive it and the acclaim it received that some Bond fans just don't see.

    LTK is very overrated in the Bond fan community, some Dalton fans are willing to let a film with jarring tonal shifts and utter cheese on display off.

    The film never is convinced what it is, a gritty revenge thriller or a standard Bond on a mission film.

    Q turning up while Bond supposedly rogue to deliver the worst bag of tricks of the series totally undermines all the serious intentions beforehand. Bond should have attempted his hit on Sanchez using his wits and expertise rather than an old man helping him out.


    SF is deemed overrated by a small percentage of Bond fans. This isn't an absolute.

    I love SF no problem with me, my issue that LTK is more Fleming like than SF.

    What because Dalton is in it, Dalton is more Fleming like in TLD. LTK is like some knock off Lethal Weapon/Die Hard.

    In the same way that some like to say QOS is a Bourne rip off, the same can be said for LTK it a Lethal Weapon/Die Hard, it even has the same person doing the score.

    To be honest I would say Craig embodies Fleming more in SF than Dalton does in LTK.

    That last sentence of yours is the most ridiculous thing I've read on the internet today (and there is a lot of crazy stuff on the internet right now)!

    Craig's Bond in SF is like a sulky teenager for the first part, then a washed up has-been, then a hen-pecked cuckold of M by the last part. I see very little of Fleming at all in SF, and I'm amazed if anyone sees anything of Fleming in it.

    LTK feels like a modern day take on Fleming in every way possible. It also mirrors a lot of TMWTGG. Dalton's performance in this film is the closest, and I mean absolute closest - we have ever seen to the literary character on screen. I seriously doubt any actor will get that close again.

    I'm not a serial Fleming reader, and haven't read any of the books for a couple of years. The last one I read was Goldfinger, but I've also recently read Casino Royale and Dr No (in the last 2-3 years).
    What struck me was how much of an old fashioned gentleman Bond was. Very respectful
    to women (he used the term 'darling' quite a lot). Quite calm and level headed with a terrific sense of duty.
    Now, I never got any of that from Bond in LTK. I could hear Moore's voice in my head on occassions, Connery on others. Never Dalton.

    Like i say, this is just my observations. Haven't read YOLT or OHMSS (for example) for 20 years, so I can't give an expert opinion on this.
    My question is, why do you see LTK as such a close representation of Fleming's Bond?

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2020 Posts: 16,382
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Have you got yourself some kind of bat signal when Skyfall is mentioned that you must chime in once again?

    You are quite pathetic.

    You're the one who's having a meltdown.

    Grow up.

    Coming into an appreciation thread continuously to slag it off shows what an empty life you must have.

    To be fair, we've all got empty lives for a few months now! :D Let's not throw stones in that glass house :)

    TripAces wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Personally I love TGWTDT.

    The film wasn't a turkey.

    It was made for USD90 million
    It made USD 130 million in NA
    USD 232 million WW.

    It's a well known joke that Sony pushed to release this in the CHRISTMAS SEASON. A dark thriller about a f***** up family and one of their missing kin.

    Yes, Sony expected more money. They screwed up their marketing campaign thinking they could release something this dark as counter-programming for the Holiday season. And then they screwed up again recently by re-casting with lesser talent in front of and behind the lense.

    But that's on Sony. Not on Craig, and certainly not on Fincher!

    Dislike an actor all you want, but this is a well known marketing screw-up. The "feel bad movie of the season" was its tag-line. They were right about that.

    I became a bigger DC fan because of TGWTDT. I went to see it because of Rooney Mara...and did like her in the film. But I was shocked by how good DC was. I think he brought a lot of the inner turmoil from Blomqvist's character to Bond in SF. The two were filmed practically back to back. Similarly, a case could be made that Connery's work in Marnie affected (positively) his work in GF and TB.

    Yeah I thought he was perfect casting in that: I loved the feel of that movie and could have happily taken a couple more of those, even if the plot panned out to be fairly usual ITV murder drama stuff. Shame it didn't happen.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2020 Posts: 16,382
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Somebody also mentioned Dalton had a lack of swagger. He had his own style of that, not in your face, more subtle: the way he knocks out the thug in the Barrelhead Bar or the cocky look he gives one of Sanchez's henchmen when being told it's very hard to keep up down there. One of Dalton's strengths is an expression on his face that communicates so much, not so much a physical gesture, that's the sign of a good actor. I suggest if somebody wants a fresh take on his films, just focus on Dalton and you'll discover a lot of what made him a special Bond.

    +1 Bond in Fleming's books is more subtle when it comes to swagger. Dalton knew the right way to play him.

    The audience rather disagree with that though, clearly. We've seen what they prefer, and playing it as 'Fleming's Bond' or not (which is arguable) is kind of irrelevant.
    He hasn't got the swagger: he looks nervous and shifty most of the time- ask yourself who seems more confident out of his and Craig's Bonds? Don't we all love the bits where Bond grabs a grape from the bowl of the room he's been searching, looks nonchalant as he strolls along a building edge etc.? The closest he gets is probably the "I report in an hour, better make that two" moment, and even then he's giving it intense and aggressive when perhaps Roger's approach (doubtless calmer and suave) would have been more... Bond.
    I enjoy him, Daylights is probably my favourite Bond film, but I can see where he's lacking. He doesn't have his head out above the movie like the other Bonds do: he's lacking the charisma. DAD is huge and rubbish, but Brosnan is still the star of it: he's in charge.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2020 Posts: 16,382
    peter wrote: »
    I think Fleming Bond, even when he doubted himself, and his role in the world (see CR when he chats with Mathis and GF up at the bar in the airport), still was a hedonist. He enjoyed women, drugs, alcohol and "avocado pears"; I got the sense that Dalton never captured this-- he "got" the spy on the edge, but never "the spy on the edge" who savoured sex and the avocado pear.

    Craig does-- a hedonist and troubled soul mixed into one bag...

    I like this, yeah.
    Dalton does get a couple of decent snob moments (the hamper one is probably the best, and he knows his opera, plus he savours a good martini like no other Bond) but you get the feeling from Craig's Bond that he's selfishly enjoying the finer things in a rather cruel way (including women), which is much more Fleming.
    God, whoever open this thread would be wishing why they did :)) .

    Aside from that for me Dalton is the closest to Fleming bond and Craig is the closest to Cinematic Bond after Connery, if he is able to surpass Connery or not is debatable. Although i have to agree that Craig is by far best actor in the series even in his worst moments. Whenever i am in doubt i always look at their worst moments and see how each of them carries those scenes and i get my answer :)

    I guess that's fair. I'd say Connery should be up there, but as you mention 'worst moments' he's not always at 100% (YOLT being the obvious example), and Craig has never given less than his all.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I have revised my opinion of Dalts a bit over the years and see where the detractors are coming from. But I think he has bags of charisma in TLD. That night scene driving with Sanders, he's bloody on fire.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2020 Posts: 16,382
    Getafix wrote: »
    Cinematic Bond is surely however each actor defines the character on screen. For me I think Sir Rog is being slightly unfairly overlooked right now. I think after Connery, Moore's interpretation is the most definitive. He maybe a little out of fashion right now (although never out of favour) but his performances at his peak are faultless. He might not have been the greatest actor but he follows through on his wonderful interpretation with consistency, professionalism and a lot of skill. To be honest, with Dalton and Craig I do find myself sometimes conscious I'm watching an "actor" on screen. Never have that with Connery and Moore. People dismiss Rog because he makes it all look so easy and effortless but that frankly is the mark of a talented screen actor.

    There's a plausible case to be made that TSWLM is actually the pinnacle of cinematic Bond.

    Yeah it always made me sad to see Roger running himself down in interviews*: he may have had a fairly restricted skill set but he was damned good at what he did, and that was to be a hugely warm presence and a top movie star. When you look at something the scale of Moonraker or TSWLM, you can see you need a really big hunk of charisma to stay on top of all that, and even Connery hadn't been given movies that big to be the centre of. But he managed it, and he made it look easy (And I think you can see that when you watch Dalton's films: he's good but he's sort of slightly... absent in a way that Moore never is).
    I certainly agree with your reading of TSWLM, by the way. When I'm watching it I often think "Is this actually the best Bond movie?". I think it might be.

    *To be honest, I'm sure when he looked at his bank account he knew he was doing something right ;)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    When Moore was Bond the media was rather cruel to him, always comparing him unfavourably to Connery. He was the proverbial butt of the joke for every two bit comedian.
    Amazing what time can do. Now, and especially since his death, his legacy has been revalued and everyone seems to remember him with misty eyed fondness.

    @mtm I agree with you whole heartedly. It isn't easy to front a massive film like TSWLM and actually be noticed. Moore really did have big screen charisma to spare. It's a shame his greatest detractor was Roger himself with those self deprecating comments he loved so much.
    A real star, on and off the screen
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Roger was very good at what he did. It's just that what he did was not to my taste.

    Went to see him live at one of those "In Conversation with..." events a year or so before his death and he was a truly fascinating character, though.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Yeah I see his familiar personal assistant Gareth Owen has a book out about his time with Roger; I might have a look at that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    So it's settled: SF is the best Bond film.

    ;)
  • Posts: 7,507
    Roger was very good at what he did. It's just that what he did was not to my taste.

    Went to see him live at one of those "In Conversation with..." events a year or so before his death and he was a truly fascinating character, though.

    This.

    An absolute legend of a man and a great Bond. However he was partly responsible for taking the franchise in the wrong direction.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Sir Rog took the franchise in a direction it needed to go in order to keep going. As much as they deviated from the Fleming novels, they revitalized the franchise, much like how Adam West saved Batman.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Sir Rog took the franchise in a direction it needed to go in order to keep going. As much as they deviated from the Fleming novels, they revitalized the franchise, much like how Adam West saved Batman.

    This is true.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2020 Posts: 16,382
    For me the Roger Moore Bond films are just filled with so much joy that I can't really engage with any sort of in-depth critcism of them. They're just ace and they make me happy.

    As someone said on Twitter today: there can't be anything wrong with any of the Roger Moore James Bond films because they have Roger Moore as James Bond in them. :)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    mtm wrote: »
    For me the Roger Moore Bond films are just filled with so much joy that I can't really engage with any sort of in-depth critcism of them. They're just ace and they make me happy.

    As someone said on Twitter today: there can't be anything wrong with any of the Roger Moore James Bond films because they have Roger Moore as James Bond in them. :)

    Having just watched them all again, I can definitely agree with this. Somewhere on the forum someone posted a gif of Bond and Melina in the chase with the Citroen, when Bond double takes and smiles at the pursuers. There's another part of the chase where Bond makes a quip and Melina visibly laughs along with him about it, and for me it just exemplifies the fun of the Moore era.
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