SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • Posts: 1,917
    I don't know why the SF post was hijacked into another I hate underwater scenes of TB bash fest, but it has.

    For me, the underwater becomes a character central to the film. Just as I've always felt YOLT presented Japan as almost a world apart or the snow in OHMSS becomes a part of its environment or gold becomes a recurrent in GF. It's what makes those early films special.

    For me, TB works because it blends this special environment in with what some called great scenes above the waves but not as a whole and I see it differently as being the right blend of underwater and above water action.

    Another post above mentioned they'd rather see Bond fighting or in ski or car chases. Okay, but haven't those been done to death? The TWINE ski scenes are the worst and the snow action in SP was lame. Let's look again at SP for the latest in Bond car chase action. Give me something that stands out, not just another.

    How many interesting underwater scenes have we had that have topped TB? Some in LTK are fine, but beyond that not much. That's why the film works for me underwater, it stands out.


  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,118
    What is great about the underwater scenes in TB? In a word: atmosphere.
  • Posts: 3,327
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't know why the SF post was hijacked into another I hate underwater scenes of TB bash fest, but it has.

    For me, the underwater becomes a character central to the film. Just as I've always felt YOLT presented Japan as almost a world apart or the snow in OHMSS becomes a part of its environment or gold becomes a recurrent in GF. It's what makes those early films special.

    For me, TB works because it blends this special environment in with what some called great scenes above the waves but not as a whole and I see it differently as being the right blend of underwater and above water action.

    Another post above mentioned they'd rather see Bond fighting or in ski or car chases. Okay, but haven't those been done to death? The TWINE ski scenes are the worst and the snow action in SP was lame. Let's look again at SP for the latest in Bond car chase action. Give me something that stands out, not just another.

    How many interesting underwater scenes have we had that have topped TB? Some in LTK are fine, but beyond that not much. That's why the film works for me underwater, it stands out.


    As you said, the underwater scenes in LTK work well (far better than TB, IMO). The issue I have with them in TB is that they are too lengthy, and far too many. And also underwater scenes in general are not that interesting, unless its something exciting like the shark cage attack in Jaws.

    I never mentioned the ski scenes in TWINE or SP, as I agree with you - they are both lame. Not all action scenes work well - they have to be done properly.

    And like you also said, we are going off topic here from the original thread. Back on topic...
  • Posts: 3,327
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    What is great about the underwater scenes in TB? In a word: atmosphere.

    If I want slow, drawn out beautiful scenes with atmosphere, nice music, and not a great deal more, than I'd stick on Kubrick's 2001 space opera sequences. Now there you can appreciate the artistic measures that's gone into it.

    With TB, it feels more like Kevin McClory just getting his own way, pushing and sabotaging the production so he gets to show off his skills as an underwater photographer, and then exhausting it to death at the expense of the film.

    It was his one, pathetic cheap shot at hanging on the tails of the Bond legacy, until he managed to do it again nearly 20 years later in NSNA.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 17,753
    When watching TB, I sometimes go back and watch the underwater scenes again. Can't see why anyone doesn't find them exciting!

    What's exciting about them, compared to something like the Madagascar chase sequence, or the ski chases in OHMSS, or the truck sequence in LTK, etc.?

    And as a massive John Barry fan, I really don't like much of the TB score. I would go as far as saying its one of his worst. The dreary slow guitar plucking mirrors the slow, treacle pace of the silent `action' of the insipid underwater sequences.

    I like the way they're shot and the atmosphere. I never grow tired of watching them.

    And I absolutely love the score. One of Barry's best, IMO.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Goldfinger has an awful ending on the plane no worse than the speeded up TB end.

    Sue me but I prefer TB to GF as well.

    Skyfall is not the best Bond film but one of the best in my book.

    Over and out.
  • Posts: 1,917
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    What is great about the underwater scenes in TB? In a word: atmosphere.

    If I want slow, drawn out beautiful scenes with atmosphere, nice music, and not a great deal more, than I'd stick on Kubrick's 2001 space opera sequences. Now there you can appreciate the artistic measures that's gone into it.

    With TB, it feels more like Kevin McClory just getting his own way, pushing and sabotaging the production so he gets to show off his skills as an underwater photographer, and then exhausting it to death at the expense of the film.

    It was his one, pathetic cheap shot at hanging on the tails of the Bond legacy, until he managed to do it again nearly 20 years later in NSNA.

    Now you've hit on something with the NSNA underwater scenes. Those are unexciting and uninvolving. Even 18 years later they didn't improve on TB.

    2001 often gets slammed as too slow, but I'm one who appreciates it and any Kubrick. Nobody would ever accuse him of being on a pace but he makes it work to his advantage.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I'll never understand how anyone finds the underwater scenes dull. I don't consider myself easy to please, but I think they're pretty gorgeous to look at, especially on a decent sized screen. And Barry scores them so well.

    I’ll never understand it either. The visuals are really great, you have to appreciate how the filmmakers accomplished it at the time and I’m totally with you on the score. I used to have soundtrack and listening to the lush, atmospheric music on its own was enjoyable. If the underwater scenes had a lesser soundtrack then maybe I’d be underwhelmed by it. This is my favorite John Barry Bond score and during those scenes it enhances the mood spectacularly.

    +1.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited March 2020 Posts: 4,043
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I'll never understand how anyone finds the underwater scenes dull. I don't consider myself easy to please, but I think they're pretty gorgeous to look at, especially on a decent sized screen. And Barry scores them so well.

    I’ll never understand it either. The visuals are really great, you have to appreciate how the filmmakers accomplished it at the time and I’m totally with you on the score. I used to have soundtrack and listening to the lush, atmospheric music on its own was enjoyable. If the underwater scenes had a lesser soundtrack then maybe I’d be underwhelmed by it. This is my favorite John Barry Bond score and during those scenes it enhances the mood spectacularly.

    +1.

    Although OHMSS is my favourite Bond score and favourite score of all time and then it would be YOLT, TB wouldn't definitely be 3rd.

    Much prefer on the whole to GF, it has an epic lushness that Barry built on even more with YOLT, Mountains & Sunsets (just sublime) before truly excelling with the masterpiece that is his OHMSS score.

    The thing about TB that always strikes me is Barry's ability to evoke a setting, the way he gives the sound that feeling of being underwater.

    Barry's Bond scores when it come to seeing appreciation appear to get short shrift (apart from us fans of course) over his more serious output but really why?

    He literally invented a genre itself with his Bond sound and those films he provides the music to would be seriously lacking without his sound, in a number instances he sprinkles gold over visuals that don't really deserve it.

    His best Bond work for me can stand alongside the likes of Lion in The Winter, Out of Africa & Dances With Wolves, I think due to Bond's being more commercial offering it doesn't get the respect those do, yet if anything the sound is much more adventurous and inventive.

    TB is my second favourite Connery film and that score is probably the primary reason that and Connery just at his most suave and assured.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Shardlake wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I'll never understand how anyone finds the underwater scenes dull. I don't consider myself easy to please, but I think they're pretty gorgeous to look at, especially on a decent sized screen. And Barry scores them so well.

    I’ll never understand it either. The visuals are really great, you have to appreciate how the filmmakers accomplished it at the time and I’m totally with you on the score. I used to have soundtrack and listening to the lush, atmospheric music on its own was enjoyable. If the underwater scenes had a lesser soundtrack then maybe I’d be underwhelmed by it. This is my favorite John Barry Bond score and during those scenes it enhances the mood spectacularly.

    +1.

    Although OHMSS is my favourite Bond score and favourite score of all time and then it would be YOLT, TB wouldn't definitely be 3rd.

    Much prefer on the whole to GF, it has an epic lushness that Barry built on even more with YOLT, Mountains & Sunsets (just sublime) before truly excelling with the masterpiece that is his OHMSS score.

    The thing about TB that always strikes me is Barry's ability to evoke a setting, the way he gives the sound that feeling of being underwater.

    Barry's Bond scores when it come to seeing appreciation appear to get short shrift (apart from us fans of course) over his more serious output but really why?

    He literally invented a genre itself with his Bond sound and those films he provides the music to would be seriously lacking without his sound, in a number instances he sprinkles gold over visuals that don't really deserve it.

    His best Bond work for me can stand alongside the likes of Lion in The Winter, Out of Africa & Dances With Wolves, I think due to Bond's being more commercial offering it doesn't get the respect those do, yet if anything the sound is much more adventurous and inventive.

    TB is my second favourite Connery film and that score is probably the primary reason that and Connery just at his most suave and assured.

    I agree whole heartedly with your comments on Barry. He is a genius.

    My rating of the Connery films are:

    1. FRWL
    2. TB
    3. DN
    4. GF
    5. YOLT
    6. NSNA
    7. DAF
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited March 2020 Posts: 4,585
    Getafix wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    As a landlocked American (I'm from Colorado, can't get more landlocked than that), I have a love and fascination with the beach and ocean and those are usually my favorite locations in Bond movies, which partially explains my adoration for CR, TB and DN, with their Caribbean scenes.

    I grew up on the California coast. But that too leads to an allure of the ocean settings. I'm with you: TB is my #2 ranked film, behind SF. The setting is its own character in TB.

    Funny that you group them together. TB is a film I just find really hard to watch these days. I've always found it slightly underwhelming despite some great scenes. It's probably my least favourite of the Connery films. I find DAF more entertaining.

    I remember watching TB for the first time and really disliking the PTS with the jet pack. I think the film feels more like a Guy Hamilton entry as it feels like the franchise has moved far away from DN and FRWL by this point. By contrast, GF feels closer to the first 2 in style, IMO.

    Actually, @Getafix , I find the two films similar in that they're both a slow burn. There is little action in both films, between the PTS and the finale. I like watching Bond "at work," not necessarily "at battle." This doesn't mean I don't like action sequences, just that I don't want them to become the big draw,

    In TB, Largo's plot is preposterous. I admit this, but for some reason, it doesn't detract from my enjoyment. I find that TB has the wittiest dialogue in the series.
    I'll never understand how anyone finds the underwater scenes dull. I don't consider myself easy to please, but I think they're pretty gorgeous to look at, especially on a decent sized screen. And Barry scores them so well.

    I would imagine that back then, those scenes played very well.

    Regardless, who doesn't find Bond's orange swimgear to be one of the most badass things ever? LOL

    james-bond-007-thunderball-6-scale_1_d7b3b29c1a91645800e4b033c72d226c.jpg
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    Barry's one-two-three punch of TB-YOLT-OHMSS is untouchable when it comes to Bond scores.

    And my Connery ranking is:
    1. TB
    2. FRWL
    3. DN
    4. GF
    5. YOLT
    6. DAF

    I never count NSNA, it's not an EON entry, it's not all that good and worst of all, it's a clumsy remake of a far, far, far superior film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2020 Posts: 16,382
    I never count NSNA, it's not an EON entry, it's not all that good and worst of all, it's a clumsy remake of a far, far, far superior film.

    It is, but it adds values in some areas. I think the script is probably better, on the whole.
    The cast is excellent too: I prefer their version of Largo. And Fatima Blush is up with Fiona, I'd say.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    TB is a great use of the locations. You really feel like you are in The Bahamas.

    Much better than SF, IMHO.
  • Posts: 11,425
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I have to be in the right mood to appreciate Thunderball. If I feel just a little impatient or restless, the film's limitations in terms of pacing is a problem. If I am in the right, relaxed mood able to sit back and just revel in the atmosphere of 60's nostalgia and the glorious locations, everything works. Last time I watched I had a blast!

    Its the one Bond film that I have my finger on the forward button of the remote, to skip past the underwater scenes, which are dull, tedious and lethargic to sit through.

    Watching it again I was surprised at the big end battle: there's a bit of fighting, then Bond turns up and he does a couple of cool things like leading the guys into the wreck and blowing them up, and you think, great, we've done a bit of that and Bond's done some cool stuff, let's move the plot on; but then there's yet more underwater fighting, and it's just... bits and pieces.. men fighting here and there... and that drags because it's kind of shapeless. Just footage stuck together.

    And I can never quite get over Bond's reason for wanting to go to the Bahamas. He sees the dead body of Derval in Shrublands, sure, and he has a sister, okay. But why would he think she would be linked to his death? As I remember Never Say Never Again made this a bit easier to swallow but I can't remember why..?

    There can't be another Bond girl who's gone by three different names either! Domino Vitali (book), Domino Derval (TB), Domino Petachi (NSNA) :)

    I think Terence Young found TB really hard going. I believe he struggled to inject excitement into the underwater scenes. They're definitely beautifully shot but TB just doesn't hang together as a whole for me. It's miles away from the taut efficient story telling in DN and FRWL. The first fail of the series.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    mtm wrote: »
    I never count NSNA, it's not an EON entry, it's not all that good and worst of all, it's a clumsy remake of a far, far, far superior film.

    It is, but it adds values in some areas. I think the script is probably better, on the whole.
    The cast is excellent too: I prefer their version of Largo. And Fatima Blush is up with Fiona, I'd say.

    It’s also better than DAF.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Getafix wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I have to be in the right mood to appreciate Thunderball. If I feel just a little impatient or restless, the film's limitations in terms of pacing is a problem. If I am in the right, relaxed mood able to sit back and just revel in the atmosphere of 60's nostalgia and the glorious locations, everything works. Last time I watched I had a blast!

    Its the one Bond film that I have my finger on the forward button of the remote, to skip past the underwater scenes, which are dull, tedious and lethargic to sit through.

    Watching it again I was surprised at the big end battle: there's a bit of fighting, then Bond turns up and he does a couple of cool things like leading the guys into the wreck and blowing them up, and you think, great, we've done a bit of that and Bond's done some cool stuff, let's move the plot on; but then there's yet more underwater fighting, and it's just... bits and pieces.. men fighting here and there... and that drags because it's kind of shapeless. Just footage stuck together.

    And I can never quite get over Bond's reason for wanting to go to the Bahamas. He sees the dead body of Derval in Shrublands, sure, and he has a sister, okay. But why would he think she would be linked to his death? As I remember Never Say Never Again made this a bit easier to swallow but I can't remember why..?

    There can't be another Bond girl who's gone by three different names either! Domino Vitali (book), Domino Derval (TB), Domino Petachi (NSNA) :)

    I think Terence Young found TB really hard going. I believe he struggled to inject excitement into the underwater scenes. They're definitely beautifully shot but TB just doesn't hang together as a whole for me. It's miles away from the taut efficient story telling in DN and FRWL. The first fail of the series.

    I think it’s the first epic Bond, without a drop in quality. Near perfect IMO.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 11,425
    The jet pack and the speeded up boat sequence are absurd. The jet pack equals the invisible Aston Martin in DAD for me. Awful PTS. But there are obviously good scenes in TB.

    I actually think the parallel with SF is quite appropriate. Both hugely commercially successful films, nicely made with some good individual sequences but that overall don't quite hit the spot.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited March 2020 Posts: 8,183
    I'd say TB is more in parallel with SP, being the culmination of the previous three films. Good sequences, but overall a rather bloated fourth installment.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I'd say TB is more in parallel with SP, being the culmination of the previous three films. Good sequences, but overall a rather bloated fourth installment.

    Yes. And I'd say GF and YOLT both do epic big Bond better.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Getafix wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I have to be in the right mood to appreciate Thunderball. If I feel just a little impatient or restless, the film's limitations in terms of pacing is a problem. If I am in the right, relaxed mood able to sit back and just revel in the atmosphere of 60's nostalgia and the glorious locations, everything works. Last time I watched I had a blast!

    Its the one Bond film that I have my finger on the forward button of the remote, to skip past the underwater scenes, which are dull, tedious and lethargic to sit through.

    Watching it again I was surprised at the big end battle: there's a bit of fighting, then Bond turns up and he does a couple of cool things like leading the guys into the wreck and blowing them up, and you think, great, we've done a bit of that and Bond's done some cool stuff, let's move the plot on; but then there's yet more underwater fighting, and it's just... bits and pieces.. men fighting here and there... and that drags because it's kind of shapeless. Just footage stuck together.

    And I can never quite get over Bond's reason for wanting to go to the Bahamas. He sees the dead body of Derval in Shrublands, sure, and he has a sister, okay. But why would he think she would be linked to his death? As I remember Never Say Never Again made this a bit easier to swallow but I can't remember why..?

    There can't be another Bond girl who's gone by three different names either! Domino Vitali (book), Domino Derval (TB), Domino Petachi (NSNA) :)

    I think Terence Young found TB really hard going. I believe he struggled to inject excitement into the underwater scenes. They're definitely beautifully shot but TB just doesn't hang together as a whole for me. It's miles away from the taut efficient story telling in DN and FRWL. The first fail of the series.

    Yeah he might not have been the best director for a really big one. Turns out Hamilton or Gilbert were the guys you wanted.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Getafix wrote: »
    The jet pack and the speeded up boat sequence are absurd. The jet pack equals the invisible Aston Martin in DAD for me. Awful PTS. But there are obviously good scenes in TB.

    Did you see this from last week though? :D



  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'd say TB is more in parallel with SP, being the culmination of the previous three films. Good sequences, but overall a rather bloated fourth installment.

    Yes. And I'd say GF and YOLT both do epic big Bond better.

    LOL...some can't get past the ridiculous effects in TB. My, YOLT has the awful painted screen backdrop during the space craft landing at the volcano. And SC's funny little "pith helmet" in the mini-copter isn't far behind the jet pack, actually.

    Regardless, I still have YOLT ranked pretty high. GF is #3 for me.

    It's funny that GF would be viewed as an epic Bond. Just like TB, it's a slow burn. That film contains very little action, until the very end.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    edited March 2020 Posts: 814
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'd say TB is more in parallel with SP, being the culmination of the previous three films. Good sequences, but overall a rather bloated fourth installment.

    Yes. And I'd say GF and YOLT both do epic big Bond better.

    LOL...some can't get past the ridiculous effects in TB. My, YOLT has the awful painted screen backdrop during the space craft landing at the volcano. And SC's funny little "pith helmet" in the mini-copter isn't far behind the jet pack, actually.

    Regardless, I still have YOLT ranked pretty high. GF is #3 for me.

    It's funny that GF would be viewed as an epic Bond. Just like TB, it's a slow burn. That film contains very little action, until the very end.

    I totally agree. In fact, I’d say DN, FRWL, GF and TB both have long stretches without big action scenes and are, as you said, slow burners, which by the way, is how Ian Fleming’s novels are (so far. I’m reading my fifth Fleming book so far right now). And by the way, someone said the action scenes in TB pale in comparison to the Madagascar action scene in CR. That’s totally unfair, action films have changed considerably in the four decades that span TB and CR. Audiences expect much more thrilling, high octane action today than audiences did back in the ‘60s. And not only that, but the length of shots in CR are way shorter than TB’s. They are pretty different beasts. CR and TB are my actually two very favorite Bond films and the Madagascar sequence in the former is possibly my favorite action sequence of the entire Bond series. But the latter’s underwater battle I have always thought was cool as hell ever since my first viewing when I was 16.

    As far as the obvious and bad rear projection jet pack shots in TB’s PTS, I’m not wild about it either. No matter my rather extreme adoration for the film and ranking it over GF and OHMSS, I’d still say that those two have the best PTS of the ‘60s and TB’s the weakest. Still though, we have to remember the abundance of rear projection shots during DN’s car chase or the skiing scenes in OHMSS. That was just how it was done back then.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Skyfall isn't even close to being the best Bond film. Just to bring this thread back on topic.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Skyfall isn't even close to being the best Bond film. Just to bring this thread back on topic.

    Agreed. It isn’t even top 10 material. The number one is FRWL.
  • Posts: 11,425
    So bored of everyone bashing SF. I found the TB reevaluation more interesting
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Getafix wrote: »
    So bored of everyone bashing SF. I found the TB reevaluation more interesting


    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/118/dont-worry-ill-tell-the-chef-thunderball-appreciation-discussion#latest
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Getafix wrote: »
    So bored of everyone bashing SF. I found the TB reevaluation more interesting

    Yeah, it's certainly one of the best so there's not much more to say! :D I did enjoy rewatching TB a couple of weeks ago but it's not perfect at all.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Getafix wrote: »
    So bored of everyone bashing SF. I found the TB reevaluation more interesting

    I'm bored of everyone bashing SP, making it look like it's the worst film ever made.
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