SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    At least the DB5 hasn’t been brought up...

    Oops!
    The steering wheel is on the wrong side 😉

    Because it’s not the same car from CR. ;)

    There you go, a lapse in logic; it absolutely should be the car from CR 😏

    I thought he dumped that car in the Bahamas?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    We never see what happens to it after the Bahamas, but it is pretty much absent right after. Likely cashed it in.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    At least the DB5 hasn’t been brought up...

    Oops!
    The steering wheel is on the wrong side 😉

    Because it’s not the same car from CR. ;)

    There you go, a lapse in logic; it absolutely should be the car from CR 😏

    I thought he dumped that car in the Bahamas?
    Why make that assumption? He won it , it’s his. I see it more plausible that he would have it shipped to the UK.
    On top of that what do we hear when we first see it? Arnold’s music from CR. Intentional or not it connects the car to that film.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,547
    It’s Arnold’s music from CR because it’s the Bond Theme. He just happened to compose both films. Skyfall has as much to do with CR as Dr. No does.
    Bond was in the middle of a mission, when would he have had time to arrange for its transport to the UK? And you say it yourself, it simply isn’t the same car. If anyone is making assumptions, it’s you.
    It’s the car from Goldfinger. It was a nod to a classic Bond film for the fans, and nothing more. Skyfall is filled with nods to classic Bond films because it was the 50th anniversary of Bond, which is why you don’t hear anything about Quantum or Vesper.

    The car from CR, he parked it at Nassau airport and carried on with his life, as we all did. Part of Bond is that everything is disposable to him.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,183
    If Bond kept the left seated DB5, he wouldn’t have come to Q for the right seated one at the end of SPECTRE. That tells me he likely got rid of the left seated vehicle after the Bahamas.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    If Bond kept the left seated DB5, he wouldn’t have come to Q for the right seated one at the end of SPECTRE. That tells me he likely got rid of the left seated vehicle after the Bahamas.

    I think the theory is that he had Q re-equip the CR DB5 as a right hand drive.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Which is debunked since we learn that Q actually lended it to Bond, as opposed to being a personal vehicle that he requested to have equipped by Q branch.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    This just proves how convoluted the inclusion of this car is. Having it be the car he won would have provided a continuity for which the Craig era strived.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Yeah, that line is a little dissonant...
    That’s the main problem with the Craig era, and a lot of the Bond films: they just seem one foot in and one foot out on continuity between films.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,183
    talos7 wrote: »
    This just proves how convoluted the inclusion of this car is. Having it be the car he won would have provided a continuity for which the Craig era strived.

    Sure, but it wouldn’t have felt as special if it was just a plain DB5 with none of the doodads. It’s not worth nitpicking IMO.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,382
    TripAces wrote: »
    If a movie is your fave, then it's your fave. There is no debating the matter, from that standpoint. So, the question that heads this thread is unfair. Given there are 24 official Bond films to choose from, that means there are 23 other films, aside from SF, from which to partake and find wonderful. Which film is best is purely subjective, of course.

    Only a handful of Bond fans will say SF is the best. Likewise, only a handful would say it's GF. Or FRWL. Or CR.

    While I am on board with SF being the best of the series, I can see serious validity in DN, FRWL, GF, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, LALD, TSWLM, and CR receiving heavy consideration.

    Back in 2016, @Gustav_Graves did an extensive poll. The results are pretty much in line with what I would expect (LALD being as low as it is being the only true shocker for me):

    ulwawkg.jpg


    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/16631/bond-polls-2016-the-top-10-james-bond-007-film-ranking-contest-results-winner-on-page-60/p60

    Interesting, thanks. I'm pleasantly surprised to see CR on top actually, I'd have thought it would be Goldfinger. It shows Bond fans are a bit more open to the newer stuff than these boards give one the impression of! :)

    There's quite a lot I'd disagree with: for example I'd dump Quantum way down the bottom, but I'm actually happy to see it further up for what it says about the fans! I'd be surprised if Spectre would stay there if they ran it again though.
    :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,382
    Which is debunked since we learn that Q actually lended it to Bond, as opposed to being a personal vehicle that he requested to have equipped by Q branch.

    I always thought that it was fine that it was the same car. Bear in mind that Bond won it on a mission in the Bahamas, presumably gambling with Government funds, so the car he wins is technically the property of the British Government; hence Q branch being responsible for it.
    As Bond is a bit of a car nut he has a mate in Q branch who he convinces to install some gadgets from an old 60s spy car they have laying about the place and to swap the driving position. It's 'his' car on a long loan (and maybe to show gratitude for how he did on the Casino Royale mission), but technically it belongs to MI6.
    MI6 sold all of his stuff when they thought he was dead, don't forget- but the car wasn't part of that...
    talos7 wrote: »
    What plot holes?
    Bond and M go alone to Skyfall knowing that Silva and his minions will follow? Surely bringing reinforcements would have been prudent.
    There’s more but, I’ll have to rewatch it and make notes.

    I think the funny bit is that they know that Silva has hacked their computers and comms, and so Bond tells MI6 that he's taking M to safety... over the radio
    :)

    I guess you could see that as part of his luring Silva away though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I think Tanner not getting M out of parliament, knowing Silva is on the loose and after her, is illogical and bordering on a plot hole, but it's not quite there. Something really has to take me out of the film for it to be a hole IMO.

    I see complaints over Dench reciting a poem thus putting herself and others in danger, but I think that’s the point. She showed poor judgement, and that’s why she stipulated that nobody else would get involved at Skyfall, because “too many people got killed” and then later she would admit “I f***ed this up”. She decided to handle this in her own terms, which meant putting her life on the line. This is her owning up to all the bad decisions she made, and it’s approaching her personified by Silva.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I think Tanner not getting M out of parliament, knowing Silva is on the loose and after her, is illogical and bordering on a plot hole, but it's not quite there. Something really has to take me out of the film for it to be a hole IMO.

    I see complaints over Dench reciting a poem thus putting herself and others in danger, but I think that’s the point. She showed poor judgement, and that’s why she stipulated that nobody else would get involved at Skyfall, because “too many people got killed” and then later she would admit “I f***ed this up”. She decided to handle this in her own terms, which meant putting her life on the line. This is her owning up to all the bad decisions she made, and it’s approaching her personified by Silva.

    This leads to another thing I don't love about this film, the expanded role of M, one whose decisions have consequences for multiple people and others, namely Bond, left to clean up the mess. I've said the credits should read Judi Dench is M in Skyfall. With Daniel Craig as Ian Fleming's James Bond.

    The filmmakers had a great actress to work with and she left her mark over 7/8 films, but they seemed to go out of their way to make her stern and against Bond far too often and created a more complicated professional relationship than it should've been and that's always been a negative for me. Not that Fiennes has had a chance to make an impression after just one film either.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I think Tanner not getting M out of parliament, knowing Silva is on the loose and after her, is illogical and bordering on a plot hole, but it's not quite there. Something really has to take me out of the film for it to be a hole IMO.

    I see complaints over Dench reciting a poem thus putting herself and others in danger, but I think that’s the point. She showed poor judgement, and that’s why she stipulated that nobody else would get involved at Skyfall, because “too many people got killed” and then later she would admit “I f***ed this up”. She decided to handle this in her own terms, which meant putting her life on the line. This is her owning up to all the bad decisions she made, and it’s approaching her personified by Silva.

    This leads to another thing I don't love about this film, the expanded role of M, one whose decisions have consequences for multiple people and others, namely Bond, left to clean up the mess.

    Isn't that basically M's role in every single Bond movie?

    (Yes, apart from FYEO before anyone says it! :) )
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    UnimportantMixedAntelopegroundsquirrel-size_restricted.gif

    :)) Someone should make a thread called Skyfall and Plotholes: A Study, begin with the definition of a plot hole, and then go down the list of all the things people claim are plot holes in the film, and try to defend against them.

    I'm not saying there aren't any, but I don't think it's as riddled with them as people think.

    I have posted as lot of counter-arguments to the "plot hole" claims. I'm exhausted. I can't do it anymore. LOL
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    If a movie is your fave, then it's your fave. There is no debating the matter, from that standpoint. So, the question that heads this thread is unfair. Given there are 24 official Bond films to choose from, that means there are 23 other films, aside from SF, from which to partake and find wonderful. Which film is best is purely subjective, of course.

    Only a handful of Bond fans will say SF is the best. Likewise, only a handful would say it's GF. Or FRWL. Or CR.

    While I am on board with SF being the best of the series, I can see serious validity in DN, FRWL, GF, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, LALD, TSWLM, and CR receiving heavy consideration.

    Back in 2016, @Gustav_Graves did an extensive poll. The results are pretty much in line with what I would expect (LALD being as low as it is being the only true shocker for me):

    ulwawkg.jpg


    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/16631/bond-polls-2016-the-top-10-james-bond-007-film-ranking-contest-results-winner-on-page-60/p60

    Interesting, thanks. I'm pleasantly surprised to see CR on top actually, I'd have thought it would be Goldfinger. It shows Bond fans are a bit more open to the newer stuff than these boards give one the impression of! :)

    There's quite a lot I'd disagree with: for example I'd dump Quantum way down the bottom, but I'm actually happy to see it further up for what it says about the fans! I'd be surprised if Spectre would stay there if they ran it again though.
    :)

    What's noteworthy is that 4 of the top 5 are solid adaptations of Fleming. SF is the only one in that top 5 that is an origianl screenplay.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,382
    TripAces wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    If a movie is your fave, then it's your fave. There is no debating the matter, from that standpoint. So, the question that heads this thread is unfair. Given there are 24 official Bond films to choose from, that means there are 23 other films, aside from SF, from which to partake and find wonderful. Which film is best is purely subjective, of course.

    Only a handful of Bond fans will say SF is the best. Likewise, only a handful would say it's GF. Or FRWL. Or CR.

    While I am on board with SF being the best of the series, I can see serious validity in DN, FRWL, GF, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, LALD, TSWLM, and CR receiving heavy consideration.

    Back in 2016, @Gustav_Graves did an extensive poll. The results are pretty much in line with what I would expect (LALD being as low as it is being the only true shocker for me):

    ulwawkg.jpg


    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/16631/bond-polls-2016-the-top-10-james-bond-007-film-ranking-contest-results-winner-on-page-60/p60

    Interesting, thanks. I'm pleasantly surprised to see CR on top actually, I'd have thought it would be Goldfinger. It shows Bond fans are a bit more open to the newer stuff than these boards give one the impression of! :)

    There's quite a lot I'd disagree with: for example I'd dump Quantum way down the bottom, but I'm actually happy to see it further up for what it says about the fans! I'd be surprised if Spectre would stay there if they ran it again though.
    :)

    What's noteworthy is that 4 of the top 5 are solid adaptations of Fleming. SF is the only one in that top 5 that is an origianl screenplay.

    Oh yes, good spot, that is food for thought. Mind you, I'd have put TSWLM way closer to the top! :)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Pretty much. It’s very telling that John Glen would refer to LTK as his personal favorite, because that’s when he was able to truly push for that hard edge that wasn’t possible with the already established Roger Moore in the role. He could only get as far as having Moore kill Loque in FYEO, or that brutal bit with him shooting a young soviet soldier right in the forehead. With a new actor, whether Dalton or Brosnan, there was at least some freedom in being able to shape a new Bond. I certainly can’t imagine Moore’s Bond in the interrogation scene with Pushkin.

    1987 to 1989 - *sigh*

    Never realised it at the time, but that was a glorious period to be a Fleming Bond fan. You had a whole team either wanting to go back to the books, or were capable of cleverly adapting the books - from Glen the director, to Cubby the producer, to Maibaum the scriptwriter who expertly knew how to do this, to the actor himself playing the lead, Dalton.

    The entire creative team were driven by a desire to give Bond a harder edge, while also wanting to return to the Fleming books (and not crappy P&W Fleming retcon, or Fleming re-imagined).

    Happy days. If only we could go back to that time now. I'd argue that outside of the early 60's, that was the next best era.

    Yes, yes, yes!!!👏👏👏
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Pretty much. It’s very telling that John Glen would refer to LTK as his personal favorite, because that’s when he was able to truly push for that hard edge that wasn’t possible with the already established Roger Moore in the role. He could only get as far as having Moore kill Loque in FYEO, or that brutal bit with him shooting a young soviet soldier right in the forehead. With a new actor, whether Dalton or Brosnan, there was at least some freedom in being able to shape a new Bond. I certainly can’t imagine Moore’s Bond in the interrogation scene with Pushkin.

    1987 to 1989 - *sigh*

    Never realised it at the time, but that was a glorious period to be a Fleming Bond fan. You had a whole team either wanting to go back to the books, or were capable of cleverly adapting the books - from Glen the director, to Cubby the producer, to Maibaum the scriptwriter who expertly knew how to do this, to the actor himself playing the lead, Dalton.

    The entire creative team were driven by a desire to give Bond a harder edge, while also wanting to return to the Fleming books (and not crappy P&W Fleming retcon, or Fleming re-imagined).

    Happy days. If only we could go back to that time now. I'd argue that outside of the early 60's, that was the next best era.

    You wish you had a team currently making the films who want to give Bond a hard edge...? Erm...?

    Did you purposely ignore the second part of my sentence you quoted...? Erm...?

    Well that made less sense: they’ve done the Fleming books. I don’t hugely want Thunderball for a third time! :D
    If it’s the leftovers... you can watch your dream movie of Bond being told about Phillip and Rhoda having a bad relationship at a dinner party
    :D

    Now even I agree that would be dull. ;)

    Give me properly adapted DAF, MR, TSWLM, YOLT and TMWTGG over pretty much anything `original' done by P&W any day of the week.

    Agreed again.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Silva somehow knowing Q would plug his laptop in at just the right moment to escape while M was at an enquiry while Bond was conveniently out of the cell while this happened and Silva taking out two ( preumably armed ) guards who are standing in front of the cell and then escaping though....oh my god i cant go on! Such nonsense!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Silva somehow knowing Q would plug his laptop in at just the right moment to escape while M was at an enquiry while Bond was conveniently out of the cell while this happened and Silva taking out two ( preumably armed ) guards who are standing in front of the cell and then escaping though....oh my god i cant go on! Such nonsense!

    d48e503f9282361b6aafe60662d6210e2c9bd3f6.gifv
  • Posts: 7,507
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Silva somehow knowing Q would plug his laptop in at just the right moment to escape while M was at an enquiry while Bond was conveniently out of the cell while this happened and Silva taking out two ( preumably armed ) guards who are standing in front of the cell and then escaping though....oh my god i cant go on! Such nonsense!

    d48e503f9282361b6aafe60662d6210e2c9bd3f6.gifv

    Intuitive improvisation which had been "years in the planning"... ;)

    I love Skyfall, but I would never claim Silva's plan makes perfect sense. It is at best OTT.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Regarding the bit with the explosion planted underground, I always assumed that wasn't done in anticipation for Bond following him but that it's explosion would provide the authorities a diversion. Bond just happened to be standing right under it, to Silva's amusement.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,541
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Silva somehow knowing Q would plug his laptop in at just the right moment to escape while M was at an enquiry while Bond was conveniently out of the cell while this happened and Silva taking out two ( preumably armed ) guards who are standing in front of the cell and then escaping though....oh my god i cant go on! Such nonsense!

    1. Silva didn't care if Q would plug his laptop at that moment, he just assumed whenever he does it, he will try to escape.

    2. He probably didn't knew M was at the enquiry, the one who handed him the package in metro could have left the message. If M was somewhere else he would just go there to Kill her. Remember he has people waiting for him dressed as policeman outside with car.


    3. I agree about the guard's though, that sounds too good to be true.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Silva somehow knowing Q would plug his laptop in at just the right moment to escape while M was at an enquiry while Bond was conveniently out of the cell while this happened and Silva taking out two ( preumably armed ) guards who are standing in front of the cell and then escaping though....oh my god i cant go on! Such nonsense!

    d48e503f9282361b6aafe60662d6210e2c9bd3f6.gifv

    Seriously... I've voiced it before, but I find Skyfall truly overrated. The Dark Knight did it better... ;)
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    I always thought Silva had many, many schemes and options to divert to whichever became useful in the moment.

    Mr. Walken! Be careful, you'll shoot your own head off!!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I always thought Silva had many, many schemes and options to divert to whichever became useful in the moment.

    Ah that's a good thought! That'd make it a bit easier to swallow :)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    I always thought Silva had many, many schemes and options to divert to whichever became useful in the moment.

    Mr. Walken! Be careful, you'll shoot your own head off!!

    This is how I feel about it as well. But it wouldn’t be wrong still to classify Silva’s plot as a little “over the top” anyways, that’s what makes a good villain in a Bond film!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Definitely over the top, but not stretching believability as some other movies like TWINE.
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