SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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Comments

  • WhyBondWhyBond USA
    Posts: 69
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.
  • WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    135106478008_extras_albumes_0.jpg

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    real-skyfall-house-james-bond-758x426.jpg
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2020 Posts: 16,383
    Ah: I went to visit that house one day. I even touched it! They didn’t seem to mind lots of dog walkers going right up to it :)

    I got some good photos of a hot air balloon landing just behind the chapel :)
  • Posts: 3,327
    TripAces wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I thought SF was Mendes' ode to his own pompous and pretentious ego. I think you are reading waaay too much into this movie. I think it is clear what Mendes thought of Fleming's creation.

    Exactly what I was thinking. I think SF is just ok as a Bond film, not particularly bad, but not that great either. Craig looks the worst actor to play Bond in this film too, looking haggard with his stubble beard and grey skinhead shaved head - nothing remotely Bondian at all.

    CR p!sses all over SF, as does quite a few other films in the series do too. It takes itself too seriously (nothing wrong with that), but then fails when it has glaring plot holes and things that just don't sit right in terms of plausibility. It's all fine and well in the context of an outlandish Bond film, but when it pretends to be something else, it needs to deliver on that too.

    It's also rather jarring that we have just gone through 2 films of how Bond becomes Bond from being a rookie Bond, to being a washed up has-been agent by the third instalment. The character arc is just silly. This is like reading Fleming's CR for the very first time, then straight after it reading YOLT and TMWTGG as direct follows on, with no character arc in-between.

    SF would have worked better had it been Craig's last outing of his reign, because then the washed up angle, Bond losing his mojo, etc. would have fitted the new reboot Bond era storyline in a more believable way.

    What amazes me about SF is how its often lauded as `going back to Fleming' when there is very little of Fleming in the movie. Arguably the PTS and Bond reporting back for duty after being missing loosely reflects YOLT and TMWTGG, but nowhere near as good. If you are going to go back to Fleming, then go back to Fleming. Show conviction, not some half-assed lame attempt at `Fleming re-imagined.'

    The film also hangs on to the coat tails of Nolan and TDK way too much. Silva feels more like The Joker, not just in appearance and behaviour, but also in how he is held captive and escapes. SF house itself feels like Wayne manor, even having its own Batcave type hidden passage, accompanied by Newman suddenly impersonating a poor mans Hans Zimmer Batman sound (also heard earlier when Bond hangs off the elevator in Shanghai).

    I find more irritations in this film than I find in most others, including Bond films with their glaringly obvious faults (DAF, MR) - the pretentious poem read by M, whispering sweet nothings between Bond and Moneypenny while she shaves him, the way Craig looks in this film with his skinhead, the arty fight sequence in Shanghai, Bond surviving a ridiculous fall in the PTS, the Home Alone angle in SF, the pointlessness of Kincaid, knowing that part was only ever written to shoehorn Connery back in for the anniversary.

    CR is easily Craig's best outing, followed by QoS. SF and SP are 2 films I would rather forget about, and almost want to lump them back in the discarded, horrendous Brozza era.

    And while all of the films dabble in product placement, nothing sinks as low as the Ford commercial in the Bahamas. And never has Arnold's music felt cornier than in that moment. Good gawd, it's bloody awful.

    What!? I LOVE that scene, and the Arnold soundtrack. Probably one of my favourite moments throughout the Craig era. It has a very positive upbeat feel to it, helped by the soundtrack where Arnold surpassed himself here, with its build up to the horn crescendo sounding like we are back in 1964.

    It's one of the highlights of the past 20 years for me, with a welcome departure from gloomy dark interior shots, pretentiousness, depressing personal angst - all the hallmarks of P&W and the Babs era.

    It feels like one of those positive upbeat moments from the novels - blue sky, sun shining, Bond smiling grimly to himself at the new adventure that lies ahead.

    Give me that any day of the week over dark hotel rooms, watching Moneypenny shave Bond, or Bond staring out at a Scottish wasteland, muttering to M about his childhood, like she's his long lost mother.
  • Posts: 3,327
    WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    This is what I hate about SF. I don't want to know how Bond became Bond. Fleming never wrote about it, never wrote about any childhood trauma. This has all been invented by P&W and has nothing to do with Fleming.

    I want Bond as the cardboard booby we read about, and watched up until 1989. No real backstory, just a blunt instrument on a new mission.

    The closest we ever got to knowing Bond's childhood was at the beginning of OHMSS, when Bond reflects on happy memories of Flake 99 ice creams and building sandcastles - not evil step brothers called Blofeld, or being some traumatised orphan that was desperate to become used and abused by the British government.

    This is all reinvented by Beavis and Butthead, and what I utterly despise during the Craig era.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    I dislike the childhood digging as well. I applaud the way Tracy's and Vesper's deaths haunt 007, or Leiter's suffering at the hands of Sanchez.
    But making up one trauma after another just to deliver some faux-intellectual nonsense is not my idea of a superior Bond film.
    If any Bond film is about something, I'd say it's QOS. Touching upon the subject of favouritism and political corruption.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    TripAces wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I thought SF was Mendes' ode to his own pompous and pretentious ego. I think you are reading waaay too much into this movie. I think it is clear what Mendes thought of Fleming's creation.

    Exactly what I was thinking. I think SF is just ok as a Bond film, not particularly bad, but not that great either. Craig looks the worst actor to play Bond in this film too, looking haggard with his stubble beard and grey skinhead shaved head - nothing remotely Bondian at all.

    CR p!sses all over SF, as does quite a few other films in the series do too. It takes itself too seriously (nothing wrong with that), but then fails when it has glaring plot holes and things that just don't sit right in terms of plausibility. It's all fine and well in the context of an outlandish Bond film, but when it pretends to be something else, it needs to deliver on that too.

    It's also rather jarring that we have just gone through 2 films of how Bond becomes Bond from being a rookie Bond, to being a washed up has-been agent by the third instalment. The character arc is just silly. This is like reading Fleming's CR for the very first time, then straight after it reading YOLT and TMWTGG as direct follows on, with no character arc in-between.

    SF would have worked better had it been Craig's last outing of his reign, because then the washed up angle, Bond losing his mojo, etc. would have fitted the new reboot Bond era storyline in a more believable way.

    What amazes me about SF is how its often lauded as `going back to Fleming' when there is very little of Fleming in the movie. Arguably the PTS and Bond reporting back for duty after being missing loosely reflects YOLT and TMWTGG, but nowhere near as good. If you are going to go back to Fleming, then go back to Fleming. Show conviction, not some half-assed lame attempt at `Fleming re-imagined.'

    The film also hangs on to the coat tails of Nolan and TDK way too much. Silva feels more like The Joker, not just in appearance and behaviour, but also in how he is held captive and escapes. SF house itself feels like Wayne manor, even having its own Batcave type hidden passage, accompanied by Newman suddenly impersonating a poor mans Hans Zimmer Batman sound (also heard earlier when Bond hangs off the elevator in Shanghai).

    I find more irritations in this film than I find in most others, including Bond films with their glaringly obvious faults (DAF, MR) - the pretentious poem read by M, whispering sweet nothings between Bond and Moneypenny while she shaves him, the way Craig looks in this film with his skinhead, the arty fight sequence in Shanghai, Bond surviving a ridiculous fall in the PTS, the Home Alone angle in SF, the pointlessness of Kincaid, knowing that part was only ever written to shoehorn Connery back in for the anniversary.

    CR is easily Craig's best outing, followed by QoS. SF and SP are 2 films I would rather forget about, and almost want to lump them back in the discarded, horrendous Brozza era.

    And while all of the films dabble in product placement, nothing sinks as low as the Ford commercial in the Bahamas. And never has Arnold's music felt cornier than in that moment. Good gawd, it's bloody awful.

    What!? I LOVE that scene, and the Arnold soundtrack. Probably one of my favourite moments throughout the Craig era. It has a very positive upbeat feel to it, helped by the soundtrack where Arnold surpassed himself here, with its build up to the horn crescendo sounding like we are back in 1964.

    It's one of the highlights of the past 20 years for me, with a welcome departure from gloomy dark interior shots, pretentiousness, depressing personal angst - all the hallmarks of P&W and the Babs era.

    It feels like one of those positive upbeat moments from the novels - blue sky, sun shining, Bond smiling grimly to himself at the new adventure that lies ahead.

    Give me that any day of the week over dark hotel rooms, watching Moneypenny shave Bond, or Bond staring out at a Scottish wasteland, muttering to M about his childhood, like she's his long lost mother.

    The music there is total cheese though. A lot of fun but cheese :)
    And the Mondeo beauty shots have always been hilarious.
  • WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    This is what I hate about SF. I don't want to know how Bond became Bond. Fleming never wrote about it, never wrote about any childhood trauma. This has all been invented by P&W and has nothing to do with Fleming.

    I want Bond as the cardboard booby we read about, and watched up until 1989. No real backstory, just a blunt instrument on a new mission.

    The closest we ever got to knowing Bond's childhood was at the beginning of OHMSS, when Bond reflects on happy memories of Flake 99 ice creams and building sandcastles - not evil step brothers called Blofeld, or being some traumatised orphan that was desperate to become used and abused by the British government.

    This is all reinvented by Beavis and Butthead, and what I utterly despise during the Craig era.

    I love it.

    When Bond first hears the word ‘Skyfall’, it’s an attempt by the MI6 psychologist to test him. Bond refuses to answer the question which essentially provides the answer itself. There are clearly some unresolved issues from his childhood and a traumatic event that he needs to address. ‘Skyfall’ has specific traumatic resonance with Bond.

    When in mortal danger, Bond decides to take M back to Skyfall – the source of his original trauma. I imagine he took her to such a private and personal place because he trusts her. It’s the biggest insight into his personal life that he has offered anyone. Clearlyhe sees M as a friend and something of a surrogate mother.

    Later we learn that Bond learned of his parents’ death whilst at Skyfall and he spent his childhood there. Essentially, this was the place where he became Bond and shaped his life. Skyfall created him and led him to his inevitable path of becoming 007.

    In destroying the house, Bond is able to confront his past and destroy the painful memories associated with it. Later, in his family chapel, he holds the dying body of his surrogate mother – the woman who has shaped his adult life. Having put his past trauma behind him and now without his surrogate mother, Bond is left to confront a ‘brave new world’ alone.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,032
    With all due respect, the Z 3 in Goldeneye made a lot less sense than the Mondeo (which was meant to be a rented car from the airport or so). It was simply superfluous (well, the Mondeo was too. But it could have been Bond's ride at the time). Likewise the Ka in QOS. Not very likely that someone in a country like that would have a future-release small car to drive around in.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    To me, what appeals about Skyfall is that not only is it a quintessential James Bond film, but it's also just a great film. I think it's one of those films that even if it wasn't a James Bond film, I'd still love it. I don't know if I could say that for a lot of films in the franchise.
  • Posts: 3,327
    WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    This is what I hate about SF. I don't want to know how Bond became Bond. Fleming never wrote about it, never wrote about any childhood trauma. This has all been invented by P&W and has nothing to do with Fleming.

    I want Bond as the cardboard booby we read about, and watched up until 1989. No real backstory, just a blunt instrument on a new mission.

    The closest we ever got to knowing Bond's childhood was at the beginning of OHMSS, when Bond reflects on happy memories of Flake 99 ice creams and building sandcastles - not evil step brothers called Blofeld, or being some traumatised orphan that was desperate to become used and abused by the British government.

    This is all reinvented by Beavis and Butthead, and what I utterly despise during the Craig era.

    I love it.

    When Bond first hears the word ‘Skyfall’, it’s an attempt by the MI6 psychologist to test him. Bond refuses to answer the question which essentially provides the answer itself. There are clearly some unresolved issues from his childhood and a traumatic event that he needs to address. ‘Skyfall’ has specific traumatic resonance with Bond.

    When in mortal danger, Bond decides to take M back to Skyfall – the source of his original trauma. I imagine he took her to such a private and personal place because he trusts her. It’s the biggest insight into his personal life that he has offered anyone. Clearlyhe sees M as a friend and something of a surrogate mother.

    Later we learn that Bond learned of his parents’ death whilst at Skyfall and he spent his childhood there. Essentially, this was the place where he became Bond and shaped his life. Skyfall created him and led him to his inevitable path of becoming 007.

    In destroying the house, Bond is able to confront his past and destroy the painful memories associated with it. Later, in his family chapel, he holds the dying body of his surrogate mother – the woman who has shaped his adult life. Having put his past trauma behind him and now without his surrogate mother, Bond is left to confront a ‘brave new world’ alone.

    And again, this is a new world invented by P&W, nothing remotely to do with Fleming. I take it you are not such a big fan of the novels then?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited February 2020 Posts: 7,547
    mtm wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I thought SF was Mendes' ode to his own pompous and pretentious ego. I think you are reading waaay too much into this movie. I think it is clear what Mendes thought of Fleming's creation.

    Exactly what I was thinking. I think SF is just ok as a Bond film, not particularly bad, but not that great either. Craig looks the worst actor to play Bond in this film too, looking haggard with his stubble beard and grey skinhead shaved head - nothing remotely Bondian at all.

    CR p!sses all over SF, as does quite a few other films in the series do too. It takes itself too seriously (nothing wrong with that), but then fails when it has glaring plot holes and things that just don't sit right in terms of plausibility. It's all fine and well in the context of an outlandish Bond film, but when it pretends to be something else, it needs to deliver on that too.

    It's also rather jarring that we have just gone through 2 films of how Bond becomes Bond from being a rookie Bond, to being a washed up has-been agent by the third instalment. The character arc is just silly. This is like reading Fleming's CR for the very first time, then straight after it reading YOLT and TMWTGG as direct follows on, with no character arc in-between.

    SF would have worked better had it been Craig's last outing of his reign, because then the washed up angle, Bond losing his mojo, etc. would have fitted the new reboot Bond era storyline in a more believable way.

    What amazes me about SF is how its often lauded as `going back to Fleming' when there is very little of Fleming in the movie. Arguably the PTS and Bond reporting back for duty after being missing loosely reflects YOLT and TMWTGG, but nowhere near as good. If you are going to go back to Fleming, then go back to Fleming. Show conviction, not some half-assed lame attempt at `Fleming re-imagined.'

    The film also hangs on to the coat tails of Nolan and TDK way too much. Silva feels more like The Joker, not just in appearance and behaviour, but also in how he is held captive and escapes. SF house itself feels like Wayne manor, even having its own Batcave type hidden passage, accompanied by Newman suddenly impersonating a poor mans Hans Zimmer Batman sound (also heard earlier when Bond hangs off the elevator in Shanghai).

    I find more irritations in this film than I find in most others, including Bond films with their glaringly obvious faults (DAF, MR) - the pretentious poem read by M, whispering sweet nothings between Bond and Moneypenny while she shaves him, the way Craig looks in this film with his skinhead, the arty fight sequence in Shanghai, Bond surviving a ridiculous fall in the PTS, the Home Alone angle in SF, the pointlessness of Kincaid, knowing that part was only ever written to shoehorn Connery back in for the anniversary.

    CR is easily Craig's best outing, followed by QoS. SF and SP are 2 films I would rather forget about, and almost want to lump them back in the discarded, horrendous Brozza era.

    And while all of the films dabble in product placement, nothing sinks as low as the Ford commercial in the Bahamas. And never has Arnold's music felt cornier than in that moment. Good gawd, it's bloody awful.

    What!? I LOVE that scene, and the Arnold soundtrack. Probably one of my favourite moments throughout the Craig era. It has a very positive upbeat feel to it, helped by the soundtrack where Arnold surpassed himself here, with its build up to the horn crescendo sounding like we are back in 1964.

    It's one of the highlights of the past 20 years for me, with a welcome departure from gloomy dark interior shots, pretentiousness, depressing personal angst - all the hallmarks of P&W and the Babs era.

    It feels like one of those positive upbeat moments from the novels - blue sky, sun shining, Bond smiling grimly to himself at the new adventure that lies ahead.

    Give me that any day of the week over dark hotel rooms, watching Moneypenny shave Bond, or Bond staring out at a Scottish wasteland, muttering to M about his childhood, like she's his long lost mother.

    The music there is total cheese though. A lot of fun but cheese :)
    And the Mondeo beauty shots have always been hilarious.

    I wonder if this was a cheeky way of saying, "he's not James Bond just yet ;)" giving the Mondeo beauty shots as if it were a Bond car. Literary and Cinematic Casino Royale are all about the man who becomes the James Bond we know and love after all. Anyways this is way off topic.
    WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    This is what I hate about SF. I don't want to know how Bond became Bond. Fleming never wrote about it, never wrote about any childhood trauma. This has all been invented by P&W and has nothing to do with Fleming.

    I want Bond as the cardboard booby we read about, and watched up until 1989. No real backstory, just a blunt instrument on a new mission.

    The closest we ever got to knowing Bond's childhood was at the beginning of OHMSS, when Bond reflects on happy memories of Flake 99 ice creams and building sandcastles - not evil step brothers called Blofeld, or being some traumatised orphan that was desperate to become used and abused by the British government.

    This is all reinvented by Beavis and Butthead, and what I utterly despise during the Craig era.

    I love it.

    When Bond first hears the word ‘Skyfall’, it’s an attempt by the MI6 psychologist to test him. Bond refuses to answer the question which essentially provides the answer itself. There are clearly some unresolved issues from his childhood and a traumatic event that he needs to address. ‘Skyfall’ has specific traumatic resonance with Bond.

    When in mortal danger, Bond decides to take M back to Skyfall – the source of his original trauma. I imagine he took her to such a private and personal place because he trusts her. It’s the biggest insight into his personal life that he has offered anyone. Clearlyhe sees M as a friend and something of a surrogate mother.

    Later we learn that Bond learned of his parents’ death whilst at Skyfall and he spent his childhood there. Essentially, this was the place where he became Bond and shaped his life. Skyfall created him and led him to his inevitable path of becoming 007.

    In destroying the house, Bond is able to confront his past and destroy the painful memories associated with it. Later, in his family chapel, he holds the dying body of his surrogate mother – the woman who has shaped his adult life. Having put his past trauma behind him and now without his surrogate mother, Bond is left to confront a ‘brave new world’ alone.

    The moment in the first trailer when the psychiatrist says "Skyfall" and Bond has his reaction and says "Done"... this was absolutely brilliant. Prior to this, Skyfall was just a cool word / fit well within the Bond film title catalogue, but then this moment, and then it was "What does it mean??" Absolutely amazing.
  • Posts: 3,327
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I dislike the childhood digging as well. I applaud the way Tracy's and Vesper's deaths haunt 007, or Leiter's suffering at the hands of Sanchez.
    But making up one trauma after another just to deliver some faux-intellectual nonsense is not my idea of a superior Bond film.
    If any Bond film is about something, I'd say it's QOS. Touching upon the subject of favouritism and political corruption.

    Totally agree. Tracy, Vesper and Leiter's encounters all come from the books.

    Bond's childhood trauma's are a pathetic invention by the dullard moronic pair P&W, who are not fit to lace up the shoes of Ian Fleming.

    This retcon crap has really killed it for me in the films. And to think the Craig era started so promising with CR, lifting the entire book onto film, and then using a Fleming title for his second outing. Once Mendes got on board it all went sadly downhill.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I dislike the childhood digging as well. I applaud the way Tracy's and Vesper's deaths haunt 007, or Leiter's suffering at the hands of Sanchez.
    But making up one trauma after another just to deliver some faux-intellectual nonsense is not my idea of a superior Bond film.
    If any Bond film is about something, I'd say it's QOS. Touching upon the subject of favouritism and political corruption.

    Totally agree. Tracy, Vesper and Leiter's encounters all come from the books.

    Bond's childhood trauma's are a pathetic invention by the dullard moronic pair P&W, who are not fit to lace up the shoes of Ian Fleming.

    This retcon crap has really killed it for me in the films. And to think the Craig era started so promising with CR, lifting the entire book onto film, and then using a Fleming title for his second outing. Once Mendes got on board it all went sadly downhill.

    I wouldn't say Bond's childhood trauma is an invention of P&W. Fleming had him an orphan of his parents' climbing accident as well, and while perhaps not as overt as P&W have made it, even in Fleming Bond's behaviours I believe are attributable to his parents' deaths, but in a much more subtle way. Fleming giving Bond the origin he did was not random.
  • Posts: 12,466
    I’m mostly forgiving of the “childhood trauma” spoken in SF, because it plays a pretty small role in the story and the death of Bond’s parents was still lifted straight from Fleming. Deciding Bond and Blofeld were foster brothers in SP is a much more annoying offense, because it was a lazy way to tie the characters together and didn’t come from Fleming at all.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’m mostly forgiving of the “childhood trauma” spoken in SF, because it plays a pretty small role in the story and the death of Bond’s parents was still lifted straight from Fleming. Deciding Bond and Blofeld were foster brothers in SP is a much more annoying offense, because it was a lazy way to tie the characters together and didn’t come from Fleming at all.

    Agreed, conceding the Hannes Oberhauser connection from Fleming. Blofeld's motivation as purely criminal in the novels is how they should have gone here, certainly. And then inject the personal aspect because it's the same bloody englishman foiling all of his plans, but end it there.
  • Posts: 12,466
    It’s sad just how to easy it is to fix everyone’s biggest issue with SP. Just remove all the childhood + personal connections between Bond and Blofeld, and have Bond discover the evil SPECTRE organization headed by Blofeld and having them meet each other for the first time right there. The connection feels like a cheap way to add weight to a character we haven’t seen before, and I wonder if it was done in part because they thought SP would be Craig’s last and wanted it to feel more meaningful than it really was.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2020 Posts: 16,383
    WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    This is what I hate about SF. I don't want to know how Bond became Bond. Fleming never wrote about it, never wrote about any childhood trauma. This has all been invented by P&W and has nothing to do with Fleming.

    I want Bond as the cardboard booby we read about, and watched up until 1989. No real backstory, just a blunt instrument on a new mission.

    The closest we ever got to knowing Bond's childhood was at the beginning of OHMSS, when Bond reflects on happy memories of Flake 99 ice creams and building sandcastles - not evil step brothers called Blofeld, or being some traumatised orphan that was desperate to become used and abused by the British government.

    This is all reinvented by Beavis and Butthead, and what I utterly despise during the Craig era.

    I love it.

    When Bond first hears the word ‘Skyfall’, it’s an attempt by the MI6 psychologist to test him. Bond refuses to answer the question which essentially provides the answer itself. There are clearly some unresolved issues from his childhood and a traumatic event that he needs to address. ‘Skyfall’ has specific traumatic resonance with Bond.

    When in mortal danger, Bond decides to take M back to Skyfall – the source of his original trauma. I imagine he took her to such a private and personal place because he trusts her. It’s the biggest insight into his personal life that he has offered anyone. Clearlyhe sees M as a friend and something of a surrogate mother.

    Later we learn that Bond learned of his parents’ death whilst at Skyfall and he spent his childhood there. Essentially, this was the place where he became Bond and shaped his life. Skyfall created him and led him to his inevitable path of becoming 007.

    In destroying the house, Bond is able to confront his past and destroy the painful memories associated with it. Later, in his family chapel, he holds the dying body of his surrogate mother – the woman who has shaped his adult life. Having put his past trauma behind him and now without his surrogate mother, Bond is left to confront a ‘brave new world’ alone.

    And again, this is a new world invented by P&W, nothing remotely to do with Fleming. I take it you are not such a big fan of the novels then?

    That’s a bit silly. Are you not a fan of TSWLM because Fleming didn’t invent Stromberg and oil tankers swallowing submarines and spies skiing off cliffs with Union Jack parachutes on their back? Because you’re missing out on a really fun film.

    FoxRox wrote: »
    It’s sad just how to easy it is to fix everyone’s biggest issue with SP. Just remove all the childhood + personal connections between Bond and Blofeld, and have Bond discover the evil SPECTRE organization headed by Blofeld and having them meet each other for the first time right there. The connection feels like a cheap way to add weight to a character we haven’t seen before, and I wonder if it was done in part because they thought SP would be Craig’s last and wanted it to feel more meaningful than it really was.


    True. The connection with the late M sending him after Spectre, and the Mr White connection was probably enough to give it a personal dimension - you could even have kept the bit about Blofeld manipulating and secretly using Bond over the course of the past few films- that’s simple enough. Having him being a foster brother was overegging the pudding somewhat and just strains credulity.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    WhyBond wrote: »
    SkyFall is too boring to be the best one. It is just like TWINE part deux with. It suffers from a lack of locales and the action fell flat. It didn't help that the villain was a Hannibal Lecktor clone.

    As much hate as TWINE gets at least it is not as dull as SkyFall with way better action" locales, and villains.

    SF is actually about something. Which you can't say about every Bond film.

    Plus, it as the most jaw-droppingly talented cast and crew - Sam Mendes, John Logan, Roger Deakins, Javier Bardem, Ben Whishaw, Ralph Fiennes, Naomie Harris, Albert Finney (!), and makes proper use of DC and Judi Dench.

    Totally the gold standard of Bond movies. Plus, it introduced the world to Berenice Marlohe......

    135106478008_extras_albumes_0.jpg

    plus, it's a film intelligent enough to explore how 'Bond became Bond' and the childhood trauma associated to the titular house. which was a stunning piece of production design.....

    real-skyfall-house-james-bond-758x426.jpg

    Completely agree. Especially about Berenice Marlohe, what a woman. Her scenes were incredible, she stole the screen in her small 15 minutes. One of my all time favourite Bond girls

    I also love moments in Skyfall, like Silva's entrance/monologue and the moment when Bond turns to the bodyguards and raise's a toast as if to say "good luck lads" and the whole word association scene was fantastic (Daniel Craig really sold every emotion to me)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I'll say one thing SF does better than CR is having a good third act. The whole sinking house thing takes me out of what should be a huge emotional moment with Bond feeling betrayed. Meanwhile here's Bond shooting a nail gun into someone's dead eye!

    SF's climax on the other hand is simply riveting.
  • Posts: 12,466
    I'll say one thing SF does better than CR is having a good third act. The whole sinking house thing takes me out of what should be a huge emotional moment with Bond feeling betrayed. Meanwhile here's Bond shooting a nail gun into someone's dead eye!

    SF's climax on the other hand is simply riveting.

    I love them both, though I will say CR’s first two acts are stronger than the last.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2020 Posts: 16,383
    I'll say one thing SF does better than CR is having a good third act. The whole sinking house thing takes me out of what should be a huge emotional moment with Bond feeling betrayed. Meanwhile here's Bond shooting a nail gun into someone's dead eye!

    SF's climax on the other hand is simply riveting.

    Yeah that’s true: I remember finding the sinking house extremely frustrating as it just got in the way of Bond confronting Vesper: I didn’t want an action scene at that point. Whereas Skyfall is one of those rare things: an action film (not just a Bond film) which has the last act being its most exciting. Very tense too.
    Neither are perfect films (CR is excellent but just a bit scrappy in places, and whilst bold in some areas lacks courage to go all the way in others. Also: Mathis did what? And Vesper betrayed him.. how? :) ; SF meanwhile is probably the classiest a Bond film had been in decades and is hugely exciting and tense and dramatic, but the plot makes almost no sense!) but they’re still two of the best ever Bonds, and that’s not bad going for Mr Craig!
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I'll say one thing SF does better than CR is having a good third act. The whole sinking house thing takes me out of what should be a huge emotional moment with Bond feeling betrayed. Meanwhile here's Bond shooting a nail gun into someone's dead eye!

    SF's climax on the other hand is simply riveting.

    I love them both, though I will say CR’s first two acts are stronger than the last.

    I love both but I much prefer the sinking house (very inventive and thrilling) to the Miami airport sequence, its just Raider light and some awful music from Arnold here.

    Don't get me wrong CR is my no.2 but I recognise its faults.

    SF's Scotland climax is glorious and I love SF, my in concert experience was incredible.

    I have no problem with what they did with SF but that should have been it, digging more into Bond's past and then tying it to Blofeld for me remains the worst idea in the whole era if not the last 24 films.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Shardlake wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I'll say one thing SF does better than CR is having a good third act. The whole sinking house thing takes me out of what should be a huge emotional moment with Bond feeling betrayed. Meanwhile here's Bond shooting a nail gun into someone's dead eye!

    SF's climax on the other hand is simply riveting.

    I love them both, though I will say CR’s first two acts are stronger than the last.

    I love both but I much prefer the sinking house (very inventive and thrilling) to the Miami airport sequence, its just Raider light and some awful music from Arnold here.

    Don't get me wrong CR is my no.2 but I recognise its faults.

    SF's Scotland climax is glorious and I love SF, my in concert experience was incredible.

    I have no problem with what they did with SF but that should have been it, digging more into Bond's past and then tying it to Blofeld for me remains the worst idea in the whole era if not the last 24 films.

    Really?? I LOVE the Miami sequence, and especially the music! That’s one of the best parts for me!
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I'll say one thing SF does better than CR is having a good third act. The whole sinking house thing takes me out of what should be a huge emotional moment with Bond feeling betrayed. Meanwhile here's Bond shooting a nail gun into someone's dead eye!

    SF's climax on the other hand is simply riveting.

    I love them both, though I will say CR’s first two acts are stronger than the last.

    I love both but I much prefer the sinking house (very inventive and thrilling) to the Miami airport sequence, its just Raider light and some awful music from Arnold here.

    Don't get me wrong CR is my no.2 but I recognise its faults.

    SF's Scotland climax is glorious and I love SF, my in concert experience was incredible.

    I have no problem with what they did with SF but that should have been it, digging more into Bond's past and then tying it to Blofeld for me remains the worst idea in the whole era if not the last 24 films.

    Really?? I LOVE the Miami sequence, and especially the music! That’s one of the best parts for me!

    What that Sky plane reveal, the music sounds like something out of Austin Powers?

    I just didn't think it was very original, after the parlour sequence which was incredible and inventive, really set DC's stall out with that one.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 628
    There are many things about SKYFALL that annoy the hell out of me. I recall the film beginning to get on my nerves soon after the opening credits, when it's revealed that Bond went off to the beach to drink and sulk and didn't bother to complete his mission first, thereby jeopardizing the lives of other agents. It just seemed like a total betrayal of the character.

    The rest of it was dull, poorly-written nonsense. I haven't been able to sit through it a second time.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 1,917
    I also like the Miami sequence and am surprised so many feel negative about it. There's some nice suspense followed by action. The bodies exhibition is a cool, surreal bit of atmosphere and like a touch an earlier film in the series would've included.

    I also dig the smirk on Bond's face when the bomber gets a dose of his own medicine. It's an underrated Bond moment that should be considered a classic moment. That's the thing about SF, I just can't think of moments in it that compare with ones that CR has in spades.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    I'm in the middle of watching Casino Royale, the Miami sequence specifically, and I'm not a fan. I actually think the Austin Powers music during the plane reveal is hilarious and entertaining :P Otherwise I don't like the sequence.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I dislike the childhood digging as well. I applaud the way Tracy's and Vesper's deaths haunt 007, or Leiter's suffering at the hands of Sanchez.
    But making up one trauma after another just to deliver some faux-intellectual nonsense is not my idea of a superior Bond film.
    If any Bond film is about something, I'd say it's QOS. Touching upon the subject of favouritism and political corruption.

    I agree with this. Just as children don't belong in Bond films, neither does childhood psychology. We didn't need the "You need the whole story" line when they arrive in Scotland. Much better is when they show the interaction between Bond and Kincade. Bond had a childhood, clearly, but we don't really need to hear about it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Shardlake wrote: »

    What that Sky plane reveal, the music sounds like something out of Austin Powers?

    I just didn't think it was very original, after the parkour sequence which was incredible and inventive, really set DC's stall out with that one.

    It really shows how there's very short line between being faithful to Barry's sound and coming off like an Austin Powers parody track. It's extremely delicate and precise.
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