SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,541
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Well, Dr. No and OHMSS have very few action scenes for a variety of reasons when you compare them to other films in the series. But I guess that puts SF in even better company, right?

    True, although OHMSS has more action than DR no , most of SF action take place in PTS. It's the most grounded film after FRWL ; or as you rightly pointed out OHMSS.

    I watched Dr No again the other day, and there's that weird bit where they're all hiding in the reeds from the guards passing them in the river, and then, just to give the film a bit of action I presume, Bond decides to randomly murder the next one even though he hadn't spotted them! And then tells Honey that 'he had to'!
    He seems rather psychopathic in that moment!
    :D

    Mind you, his next decision is to try and and attack the dragon tank using only a couple of pistols and that gets him and Honey captured and Quarrel killed, so I wonder if there isn't some sort of evidence for Bond being out of his mind from heatstroke or something when they get to that island!

    He didn't just decided to kill the guard, remember when honey said 'why' bond respond 'i had to'. If he didn't kill that guard, they all would have been caught by then.


    Sure, but that's not true! The previous three guards went past without them catching them- this one had pretty much gone by too. Bond just decides to kill him for no reason!
    :)

    About getting quarrel killed and getting himself and honey captured. He specifically asked honey to stay behind but she refused, and he didn't ordered or asked quarrel to move so far ahead to shoot the tank, it was split second decision he had to take but it was a poor decision nonetheless.

    Taking on the tank at all seems a rather bad idea! :)

    Previous three guards wasn't that competent as much as him i believe, even quarrel admire him, i have forgotten what he said about the guard though. Better safe than sorry i guess, who knows what would have happened if he didn't kill the guard, the fact that he came back shows the he was better at his job than others. A psychopathic won't show any remorse by saying 'i had to'.

    I agree about the tank sequence though, it was stupid idea to go against that. They could have waited longer, but we audience might have gotten bored, waiting to see them waiting ;)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    @Resurrection nice look at the Skyfall PTS; one of my favourites as well, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love Patrice as a character too; glad he made it to the main film as well.

    One thing that always bothered me was M's line when Bond first comes back, "it was the possibility of losing you, or the certainty of losing all those other agents." Your decision caused you to lose both, didn't it!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,201
    One thing that always bothered me was M's line when Bond first comes back, "it was the possibility of losing you, or the certainty of losing all those other agents." Your decision caused you to lose both, didn't it!

    She made a tough decision she thought was the correct one at the time it was done and doesn’t regret it, as she once said “regret is unprofessional”. She doesn’t really begin to reconsider those decisions until she’s at Skyfall asking Bond “I ****ed this up, didn’t I?”
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    One thing that always bothered me was M's line when Bond first comes back, "it was the possibility of losing you, or the certainty of losing all those other agents." Your decision caused you to lose both, didn't it!

    She made a tough decision she thought was the correct one at the time it was done and doesn’t regret it, as she once said “regret is unprofessional”. She doesn’t really begin to reconsider those decisions until she’s at Skyfall asking Bond “I ****ed this up, didn’t I?”

    Good points.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Bond, and M for that matter, are not infallible. Neither are supposed to be. They make mistakes from time to time. In some films, more than one.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,574
    @Resurrection nice look at the Skyfall PTS; one of my favourites as well, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love Patrice as a character too; glad he made it to the main film as well.

    One thing that always bothered me was M's line when Bond first comes back, "it was the possibility of losing you, or the certainty of losing all those other agents." Your decision caused you to lose both, didn't it!

    Ha! True. I think Eve is actually the most to blame and she did show her unsuitability to the field: once she'd shot Bond she should have kept shooting and got Patrice as well!
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    @Resurrection nice look at the Skyfall PTS; one of my favourites as well, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love Patrice as a character too; glad he made it to the main film as well.

    One thing that always bothered me was M's line when Bond first comes back, "it was the possibility of losing you, or the certainty of losing all those other agents." Your decision caused you to lose both, didn't it!

    Ha! True. I think Eve is actually the most to blame and she did show her unsuitability to the field: once she'd shot Bond she should have kept shooting and got Patrice as well!


    Yes, that´s the only thing that has always bothered me about the scene. She had plenty of time to at least try to shoot Patrice, and it wouldn´t have been all in vain.

    But then again, the film is better with Patrice alive and the disc stolen ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,574
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    @Resurrection nice look at the Skyfall PTS; one of my favourites as well, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love Patrice as a character too; glad he made it to the main film as well.

    One thing that always bothered me was M's line when Bond first comes back, "it was the possibility of losing you, or the certainty of losing all those other agents." Your decision caused you to lose both, didn't it!

    Ha! True. I think Eve is actually the most to blame and she did show her unsuitability to the field: once she'd shot Bond she should have kept shooting and got Patrice as well!


    Yes, that´s the only thing that has always bothered me about the scene. She had plenty of time to at least try to shoot Patrice, and it wouldn´t have been all in vain.

    Yeah, the justification is that she's really shocked she's just killed Bond... but she's supposed to be a professional killer! I'd expect a little more steel than that- really she should have been feeling pretty guilty about the whole situation in the film: not just Bond's injury! Her hesitation meant those agents got murdered!
    She's inappropriately cocky in scenes like the shaving scene when you consider that, in fact :)

    jobo wrote: »
    But then again, the film is better with Patrice alive and the disc stolen ;)

    Very true! :)
  • Posts: 1,926
    That's another SF touch with the missing disc that reminds me of the first MI film: I keep hearing Tom Cruise's Ethan Hunt saying "The NOC list is in the open."
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    .
    TripAces wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Silva somehow knowing Q would plug his laptop in at just the right moment to escape while M was at an enquiry while Bond was conveniently out of the cell while this happened and Silva taking out two ( preumably armed ) guards who are standing in front of the cell and then escaping though....oh my god i cant go on! Such nonsense!
    I always thought Silva had many, many schemes and options to divert to whichever became useful in the moment.

    +1

    Silva said it himself. He creates his own "missions." Just "point and click." And to a degree, he's right. He's the perfect villain for our times. Not only does technology give us "on the fly" options; it allows us to manipulate the possibilities.

    When we are in a film, we give in to a story, and almost every story is full of implausibilities. My favorite film of all time is Jaws. Is it gritty and real? Yes. Is it full of plot holes and implausibilities? Yes. But the catch is this: when good characters are written, they create their own realities. Would a fisherman really bust up his own radio with a bat? Not ordinarily. Would Quint? Yeah. And because we have had clues at how unstable the guy is, we buy into the contrived plot point.

    Same with Silva. I love that there is ambiguity in terms of what he planned, how much he planned, and when. That makes it even more compelling.

    +1, Very well said.

    +2, I couldn't have put it better.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    @NickTwentyTwo It was a prefect opening for me up until my gf ruined it for me by saying "why the hell no one stopped the train after bond puts passenger in such danger using that digger? ". The only defense i could come up with at that moment "maybe even people in that train wanted to enjoy some action like us" :))
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    @NickTwentyTwo It was a prefect opening for me up until my gf ruined it for me by saying "why the hell no one stopped the train after bond puts passenger in such danger using that digger? ". The only defense i could come up with at that moment "maybe even people in that train wanted to enjoy some action like us" :))

    :)) who knows, I guess the only possible explanation was that the drivers hadn’t realized what happened in time?
  • Posts: 7,507
    @NickTwentyTwo It was a prefect opening for me up until my gf ruined it for me by saying "why the hell no one stopped the train after bond puts passenger in such danger using that digger? ". The only defense i could come up with at that moment "maybe even people in that train wanted to enjoy some action like us" :))

    :)) who knows, I guess the only possible explanation was that the drivers hadn’t realized what happened in time?

    Nah. People in Turkey are tough. They are used to inconveniences, especially with public transport. Adding to that the vagon Bond destroyed was the one with third class passengers, so who would care? ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,574
    @NickTwentyTwo It was a prefect opening for me up until my gf ruined it for me by saying "why the hell no one stopped the train after bond puts passenger in such danger using that digger? ". The only defense i could come up with at that moment "maybe even people in that train wanted to enjoy some action like us" :))

    Ha! I always wondered why none of them seem at all shaken by hearing an ongoing gun battle on the roof of their car! :D


    Incidentally, Roger Deakins has had Sam Mendes on his podcast (no, I didn't realise he has a podcast either: proving yet again what an absolute dude he is) where I'm sure they'll be chewing some Skyfall fat:
    https://podcasts.apple.com/my/podcast/team-deakins/id1510638084#episodeGuid=8e449c50-1f41-4132-975e-5950a3002be7
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,611
    It was a prefect opening for me up until my gf ruined it for me by saying "why the hell no one stopped the train after bond puts passenger in such danger using that digger? ". The only defense i could come up with at that moment "maybe even people in that train wanted to enjoy some action like us" :))
    😄
    mtm wrote: »
    I watched Dr No again the other day, and there's that weird bit where they're all hiding in the reeds from the guards passing them in the river, and then, just to give the film a bit of action I presume, Bond decides to randomly murder the next one even though he hadn't spotted them! And then tells Honey that 'he had to'!
    He seems rather psychopathic in that moment!
    :D

    Mind you, his next decision is to try and and attack the dragon tank using only a couple of pistols and that gets him and Honey captured and Quarrel killed, so I wonder if there isn't some sort of evidence for Bond being out of his mind from heatstroke or something when they get to that island!
    In the Fleming novel the man accidentally steps on Bond's shin, so Bond kills him.

    And Bond doesn't know at first the tank has a big flamethrower and thinks they can't escape anyway and will definitely be discovered, so he tells Quarrel to shoot at the vehicle dome, and he shoots at the headlights, the possibly vulnerable spots.
    It's basically good they wanted to be faithful to the novel, but unfortunately the film doesn't make the decisions plausible.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,588
    marc wrote: »
    In the Fleming novel the man accidentally steps on Bond's shin, so Bond kills him.

    :)) When was this?

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,574
    marc wrote: »
    It was a prefect opening for me up until my gf ruined it for me by saying "why the hell no one stopped the train after bond puts passenger in such danger using that digger? ". The only defense i could come up with at that moment "maybe even people in that train wanted to enjoy some action like us" :))
    😄
    mtm wrote: »
    I watched Dr No again the other day, and there's that weird bit where they're all hiding in the reeds from the guards passing them in the river, and then, just to give the film a bit of action I presume, Bond decides to randomly murder the next one even though he hadn't spotted them! And then tells Honey that 'he had to'!
    He seems rather psychopathic in that moment!
    :D

    Mind you, his next decision is to try and and attack the dragon tank using only a couple of pistols and that gets him and Honey captured and Quarrel killed, so I wonder if there isn't some sort of evidence for Bond being out of his mind from heatstroke or something when they get to that island!
    In the Fleming novel the man accidentally steps on Bond's shin, so Bond kills him.

    And Bond doesn't know at first the tank has a big flamethrower and thinks they can't escape anyway and will definitely be discovered, so he tells Quarrel to shoot at the vehicle dome, and he shoots at the headlights, the possibly vulnerable spots.
    It's basically good they wanted to be faithful to the novel, but unfortunately the film doesn't make the decisions plausible.

    Ah that does make more sense! :)
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,611
    EDIT: @NickTwentyTwo It's when the man disturbs Bond who is snorkeling, of course :--)

    It's when Bond is lying in the river and fears to have been discovered, so he stands up.

    In the novel, the man then hits Bond at the forearm with his rifle butt, and Bond shoots him.

    Yes, that makes more sense 🙂
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,574
    Yeah, in the film the guy walks past Bond and friends without noticing them at all... so Bond kills him!
    "I had to" Er.. okay James...
    :D

    Just imagine what was going through Honey's head when he disconnects their boat from Felix's boat at the very end!!
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    And in the novel the guy disturbs Bond while doing river snorkeling...

    Yes, she must have apologized to him for tons of things to survive 😆
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,574
    Just watching Skyfall on telly now, and I know we all say how Silva's plan to get captured makes no sense and is ripped off from Dark Knight and all that... but why does he need to get captured? All he does is place a virus/hack which allows him to escape... so why not just.. not get captured in the first place? If he'd done it to ridicule M and show her up for not being able to keep her prisoners locked up that might sort of work as an angle, but that doesn't happen.

    Was it just so he could chat to M? I guess he is mad so that sort of makes sense.


    Also, how come that tube platform is so crowded that Bond has to squeeze between people but he can easily walk along inside the train? :D


    marc wrote: »

    Yes, she must have apologized to him for tons of things to survive 😆


    :))
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    mtm wrote: »

    Also, how come that tube platform is so crowded that Bond has to squeeze between people but he can easily walk along inside the train? :D



    :))

    The opposite of real life.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    Just watching Skyfall on telly now, and I know we all say how Silva's plan to get captured makes no sense and is ripped off from Dark Knight and all that... but why does he need to get captured? All he does is place a virus/hack which allows him to escape... so why not just.. not get captured in the first place? If he'd done it to ridicule M and show her up for not being able to keep her prisoners locked up that might sort of work as an angle, but that doesn't happen.

    Was it just so he could chat to M? I guess he is mad so that sort of makes sense.

    That has always been my interpretation: He wants a chance to confront M in person and to humiliate MI6 further by escaping. The fact that it happens to coincide perfectly with the date and time of her hearing is, well... an added bonus I guess... ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,574
    mtm wrote: »

    Also, how come that tube platform is so crowded that Bond has to squeeze between people but he can easily walk along inside the train? :D



    :))

    The opposite of real life.

    Heh! And the platform is even empty enough for him to run after the train once it's left... so where do all the people go?
    :D
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Just watching Skyfall on telly now, and I know we all say how Silva's plan to get captured makes no sense and is ripped off from Dark Knight and all that... but why does he need to get captured? All he does is place a virus/hack which allows him to escape... so why not just.. not get captured in the first place? If he'd done it to ridicule M and show her up for not being able to keep her prisoners locked up that might sort of work as an angle, but that doesn't happen.

    Was it just so he could chat to M? I guess he is mad so that sort of makes sense.

    That has always been my interpretation: He wants a chance to confront M in person and to humiliate MI6 further by escaping. The fact that it happens to coincide perfectly with the date and time of her hearing is, well... an added bonus I guess... ;)

    Yeah I guess that must be it. It sort of feels like a non-essential part of the plan though! But yeah: he's mad :)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »

    Also, how come that tube platform is so crowded that Bond has to squeeze between people but he can easily walk along inside the train? :D



    :))

    The opposite of real life.

    Heh! And the platform is even empty enough for him to run after the train once it's left... so where do all the people go?
    :D

    Taken aside after a ticket control.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    mtm wrote: »
    (...) Bond decides to randomly murder the next one even though he hadn't spotted them! And then tells Honey that 'he had to'!
    He seems rather psychopathic in that moment!
    :D
    Another psychopathic moment is when Graves' henchman introduces himself as Mr. Kil, and in the German language version Bond replies by saying: "An irresistible name"... 😎 😆
    mtm wrote: »
    Heh! And the platform is even empty enough for him to run after the train once it's left... so where do all the people go?
    :D
    Corona Virus had just struck...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,574
    marc wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    (...) Bond decides to randomly murder the next one even though he hadn't spotted them! And then tells Honey that 'he had to'!
    He seems rather psychopathic in that moment!
    :D
    Another psychopathic moment is when Graves' henchman introduces himself as Mr. Kil, and in the German language version Bond replies by saying: "An irresistible name"... 😎 😆

    Wow! Ha! How did the audiences react to that?
    Still, I guess they were already probably pretty confused by watching a film called ‘The Another Day’ anyway :D
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,611
    Hey, german speaking people know articles from verbs (mostly, that is). :--) About the audiences' response I don't know, as I only saw DAD years later.

    But it's even worse, as Brosnan is dubbed by the voice of Al Pacino (and Kevin Costner). And to close the circle, Lazenby got the same voice as Connery (which makes the "This never happened ..." line a bit weirder), while in DN Connery gets the voice of Clint Eastwood ("I had to")... 🙃
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,574
    That must be so weird!
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,588
    mtm wrote: »
    Just watching Skyfall on telly now, and I know we all say how Silva's plan to get captured makes no sense and is ripped off from Dark Knight and all that... but why does he need to get captured? All he does is place a virus/hack which allows him to escape... so why not just.. not get captured in the first place? If he'd done it to ridicule M and show her up for not being able to keep her prisoners locked up that might sort of work as an angle, but that doesn't happen.

    Was it just so he could chat to M? I guess he is mad so that sort of makes sense.


    Also, how come that tube platform is so crowded that Bond has to squeeze between people but he can easily walk along inside the train? :D


    marc wrote: »

    Yes, she must have apologized to him for tons of things to survive 😆


    :))


    Because Silva is hell bent on humiliating MI6 and demonstrating just how smart he is. And the best way to do this is on their own turf, on their own terms. Of course, Silva manipulated both, which again goes back to one of SF's themes: that of free will.

    "I made my own decisions," says Bond.
    "You think you did," says Silva.

    At first this seems like a throwaway exchange, but it's pretty important.
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