SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.

    I just don't see how they could pull that scene off convincingly on film yo be honest...
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2020 Posts: 5,970
    jobo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.
    I just don't see how they could pull that scene off convincingly on film yo be honest...
    I mean off the top of my head it could've been a good alternative to the introduction of Denbigh. The problem is the film was about Bond being reprimanded by MI6 and going off an off-the-records mission, which was a mistake in my eyes, considering where Skyfall left off.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Denbigh wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.
    I just don't see how they could pull that scene off convincingly on film yo be honest...
    I mean off the top of my head it could've been a good alternative to the introduction of Denbigh. The problem is the film was about Bond being reprimanded by MI6 and going off an off-the-records mission, which was a mistake in my eyes, considering where Skyfall left off.

    Don't forget that Mexico mission is a personal favour to Dench-M though, so it kind of is like the Blades thing! :)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Then I hope there’s a female M again more than ever.

    Why? Odd response.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2020 Posts: 5,970
    mtm wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.
    I just don't see how they could pull that scene off convincingly on film yo be honest...
    I mean off the top of my head it could've been a good alternative to the introduction of Denbigh. The problem is the film was about Bond being reprimanded by MI6 and going off an off-the-records mission, which was a mistake in my eyes, considering where Skyfall left off.

    Don't forget that Mexico mission is a personal favour to Dench-M though, so it kind of is like the Blades thing! :)
    True I can see that, but I honestly think the best thing to do would've been to do have left Dench's M with what happened and to have moved forward with a classic mission given to him by Fiennes' M with the new found respect they'd setup after Skyfall.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    jobo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.

    I just don't see how they could pull that scene off convincingly on film yo be honest...

    Why is that? CR 2006 was well crafted from 1953 page to modern screen.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Denbigh wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do hope we get to see a variation on the Blades sequence at some point. I think it would've been perfect for Spectre given Fiennes' M would have made sense to have been involved in that kind of club.
    I just don't see how they could pull that scene off convincingly on film yo be honest...
    I mean off the top of my head it could've been a good alternative to the introduction of Denbigh. The problem is the film was about Bond being reprimanded by MI6 and going off an off-the-records mission, which was a mistake in my eyes, considering where Skyfall left off.

    The M Briefing stands out in my mind as one of my least favourite parts of Spectre.
  • edited November 2020 Posts: 4,615
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    patb wrote: »
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.
    100% @patb, and it's even crazier considering we were dealing with the same team.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    I really hope we get something better in NTTD than SP, Fiennes M haven't really got the script to show his full potential in SP.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    patb wrote: »
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.

    How? Mallory does is give Bond a suspension, but that’s mild considering Bond’s unsanctioned actions in Mexico. He still trusts Bond, but doesn’t like being kept in the dark as his employer. It’s only once he hears the recording of Bond by C that he realizes that not only is Bond onto something big but that he needs to get his MI6 crew to cover up Bond’s activities so that he’s not compromised.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    patb wrote: »
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.

    Indeed. Like his predecessor, M feels the need to keep Bond's movements in check with the smart blood technology (like the tracking device implanted in Bond's wrist in CR). Problem is, M then shows total dismay at the idea of C tracking his agents. WTF. Just another example of the script simply not being in place. So much of SP was simply not thought through enough.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.
    Just another example of the script simply not being in place. So much of SP was simply not thought through enough.
    That's a good point. I also feel the same about when Q says "we asked you to bring it back in one piece" about the DB5 when Q didn't give him the car, and Bond took it to Scotland on his own volition. Also, the line just came across as a joke that any Bond fan would've come up with when dealing with Q and Bond's interactions.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited November 2020 Posts: 4,585
    Denbigh wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.
    Just another example of the script simply not being in place. So much of SP was simply not thought through enough.
    That's a good point. I also feel the same about when Q says "we asked you to bring it back in one piece" about the DB5 when Q didn't give him the car, and Bond took it to Scotland on his own volition. Also, the line just came across as a joke that any Bond fan would've come up with when dealing with Q and Bond's interactions.

    I still love that line, though. I don't know if it's the line or Q's delivery of it. And then there's Tanner's reaction and Bond's stern (eff off) look that quickly forces the smile off his face. It's a good moment.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2020 Posts: 7,547
    TripAces wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    The "new found respect" is a key factor in Mallory's character arc. He moves from prime cynic to new hero (proving himself having "taken a bullet") and and visually shown in that final scene. The "crumbs" scene marks a key point in his arc where Q looks like he is a pupil about to be told off (check the way he creeps up on them) but Mallory breaks our expectations and agrees with the plan. Q and Tanner are convinced that Mallory is not part of the team. It's good writing IMHO and another reason to like SF. That final scene where the mutual respect is shown is a highlight and one of THE best endings of the series (anyone here NOT like that scene?) and it just adds to the failure of SP IMHO that the positive emotion and momentum of that scene was simply forgotten.
    Just another example of the script simply not being in place. So much of SP was simply not thought through enough.
    That's a good point. I also feel the same about when Q says "we asked you to bring it back in one piece" about the DB5 when Q didn't give him the car, and Bond took it to Scotland on his own volition. Also, the line just came across as a joke that any Bond fan would've come up with when dealing with Q and Bond's interactions.

    I still love that line, though. I don't know if it's the line or Q's delivery of it. And then there's Tanner's reaction and Bond's stern (eff off) look that quickly forces the smile off his face. It's a good moment.

    Yes, and primarily how Skyfall should be taken: a series of good moments. :P

    Woops you're talking about Spectre. Eh, it applies to both.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    It may not be the best, but it is immensely rewatchable . I do think it could have used a logic script polish; I’ve wondered how Christopher McQuarrie would have done handling that .
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    talos7 wrote: »
    It may not be the best, but it is immensely rewatchable . I do think it could have used a logic script polish; I’ve wondered how Christopher McQuarrie would have done handling that .

    Yes that my thought too when I heard that podcast where Mendes says that the third act of Spectre 'fell apart' while he was making it: that seems to be the sort of problem that McQuarrie actually thrives on.
  • edited November 2020 Posts: 4,409
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    It may not be the best, but it is immensely rewatchable . I do think it could have used a logic script polish; I’ve wondered how Christopher McQuarrie would have done handling that .

    Yes that my thought too when I heard that podcast where Mendes says that the third act of Spectre 'fell apart' while he was making it: that seems to be the sort of problem that McQuarrie actually thrives on.

    Kinda flabbergasted by this statement....

    No disrespect to McQ, but the true auteur of the Mission franchise is Tom Cruise. He's the guy who drives all the sequences and his gamely approach to the action is what makes the series work. Without him hanging off the side of a plane or dangling off a helicopter and then flying the helicopter, you simply don't have a movie.

    McQ is there just to string it together the action beats which he does with the vaguest inclination of a plot. I've seen Rogue Nation and Fallout numerous ties, however, I cannot tell you the plots of those films. The action is what's important. Even the character work in both McQ's Mission films is pretty abysmal. He isn't even trying to flesh out the characters (aside from Rebecca Ferguson but the fact that Ethan Hunt is such a cypher after 6 films is unforgivable).

    Say what you want about Mendes, but he put character first. Perhaps to the detriment of the action. But Bond always felt like a real character in his grasp. He was actually trying to do something with Bond. Now he was more successful in some (SF) than he was in others (SP). But he didn't see Craig as an action mannequin to fling off buildings.

    Anyway, I was curious what people thought of Craig's tuxedo look in SF? It may well be my favourite when staked up with the others....I think the cut of the QOS tuxedo but the bowtie is dodgy. I think the white tuxedo could have perfect, but I can't put my finger on why it doesn't work. Maybe because Daniel feels modern as Bond and the white tuxedo feels like it belongs to the old days of 007. Maybe it's Daniel's hair. Who knows.

    96815-FC6-6931-49-C1-9172-A99-C68-C3-A2-ED.jpg
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2020 Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    It may not be the best, but it is immensely rewatchable . I do think it could have used a logic script polish; I’ve wondered how Christopher McQuarrie would have done handling that .

    Yes that my thought too when I heard that podcast where Mendes says that the third act of Spectre 'fell apart' while he was making it: that seems to be the sort of problem that McQuarrie actually thrives on.

    Kinda flabbergasted by this statement....

    No disrespect to McQ, but the true auteur of the Mission franchise is Tom Cruise. He's the guy who drives all the sequences and his gamely approach to the action is what makes the series work. Without him hanging off the side of a plane or dangling off a helicopter and then flying the helicopter, you simply don't have a movie.

    No don't be silly; those are stunts, not films. The hanging-off-the-side-of-a-plane (whilst undeniably great) was dealt with before the title even came up, it wasn't the movie. If you look at the opera sequence in Rogue Nation and tell me it was all Cruise's work then I'm not sure you're following what movies are or how they're made. That same movie has a finale infinitely more satisfying than pretty much any action movie in the last 20 years too, and that wasn't Cruise doing that.

    Look at Rogue Nation and tell me you don't think it's structurally superior to the same year's Spectre, really?
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    There are four great car chases I have seen that stand out:

    1. Bullitt
    2. The 7-Ups
    3. To Live and Die in LA

    and...

    4. Jack Reacher

    I don't know which one is to be credited for #4 (McQuarrie or Cruise) but it is off the hook.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    It may not be the best, but it is immensely rewatchable . I do think it could have used a logic script polish; I’ve wondered how Christopher McQuarrie would have done handling that .

    Yes that my thought too when I heard that podcast where Mendes says that the third act of Spectre 'fell apart' while he was making it: that seems to be the sort of problem that McQuarrie actually thrives on.

    Kinda flabbergasted by this statement....

    No disrespect to McQ, but the true auteur of the Mission franchise is Tom Cruise. He's the guy who drives all the sequences and his gamely approach to the action is what makes the series work. Without him hanging off the side of a plane or dangling off a helicopter and then flying the helicopter, you simply don't have a movie.

    No don't be silly; those are stunts, not films. The hanging-off-the-side-of-a-plane (whilst undeniably great) was dealt with before the title even came up, it wasn't the movie. If you look at the opera sequence in Rogue Nation and tell me it was all Cruise's work then I'm not sure you're following what movies are or how they're made. That same movie has a finale infinitely more satisfying than pretty much any action movie in the last 20 years too, and that wasn't Cruise doing that.

    Look at Rogue Nation and tell me you don't think it's structurally superior to the same year's Spectre, really?

    +1
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2020 Posts: 8,216
    I am fairly shocked by the amount of people who proudly say things like "I couldn't tell you the plot of the Mission: Impossible films" as if it's a reflection of the films and not the people themselves. They're incredibly straightforward and efficient films.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    The plot is usually "Ethan Hunt is on the run", with the exception of the second film. Insert action sequences and you're set.

    It's ironic that Bond fans that gripe about how Bond always goes rogue looks to the MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE films and say "now THAT'S how you do it right!"
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2020 Posts: 8,216
    I think they're usually referring to the combination of tone, sense of scale and relentless pace rather than any specific plot point when they do say things like that, in fairness. Which I kind of get, in a way, but I also quite like how varied Bond films are by comparison. We wouldn't have Skyfall if Bond was simply to rinse and repeat those elements. Though, on the other hand, we also wouldn't have Spectre...
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    The plot is usually "Ethan Hunt is on the run", with the exception of the second film. Insert action sequences and you're set.

    It's ironic that Bond fans that gripe about how Bond always goes rogue looks to the MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE films and say "now THAT'S how you do it right!"

    Rogue Nation is how you do it right, then there’s SPECTRE
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I think they're usually referring to the combination of tone, sense of scale and relentless pace rather than any specific plot point when they do say things like that, in fairness. Which I kind of get, in a way, but I also quite like how varied Bond films are by comparison. We wouldn't have Skyfall if Bond was simply to rinse and repeat those elements. Though, on the other hand, we also wouldn't have Spectre...

    That's right on the money.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I think they're usually referring to the combination of tone, sense of scale and relentless pace rather than any specific plot point when they do say things like that, in fairness. Which I kind of get, in a way, but I also quite like how varied Bond films are by comparison. We wouldn't have Skyfall if Bond was simply to rinse and repeat those elements. Though, on the other hand, we also wouldn't have Spectre...

    If SPECTRE is what we get because of SKYFALL, then it's worth it.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    I have said it before and i am going to say it again, it's not fair to compare worst bond film's with best MI film's. Just like Rogue Nation was a better film than SP, CR was a better film than MI3 which came in same year, SF was a better film than MI4 which came within one year gap. Also, we only had two bond film's in this decade, sadly. This is coming from someone who still loves Rogue Nation, it's highly rewatchabale, far more than SP.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2020 Posts: 16,382
    The plot is usually "Ethan Hunt is on the run", with the exception of the second film. Insert action sequences and you're set.

    It's ironic that Bond fans that gripe about how Bond always goes rogue looks to the MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE films and say "now THAT'S how you do it right!"

    I never gripe about Bond going rogue, I don't have a problem with it.

    The things the MIs get right is to have beautifully made action scenes which contain real tension and have been set up by the plot; and they have movies with a pretty perfect structure which brings the excitement, laughs etc. in exactly the right places and at exactly the right pace. They're like beautifully-tuned and balanced machines.
    SF was a better film than MI4 which came within one year gap.

    I think that's debatable: I'd say they're both terrific.
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