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Live And Let Die vs Tomorrow Never Dies - By the Elements

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  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Ludovico wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    What was the justification for considering Rosa Klebb the main villain in FRWL? I consider Red Grant the main villain, since the main (verbal and physical) showdown is with Grant. If we consider Grant the main villain, then I would certainly award FRWL the win in this category.

    The main villain is usually the brains rather than the brawn. It was Klebb, Blofeld and Kronstein who created SPECTRE's plan and oversaw its instigation. Grant was simply the gifted goon at the sharp end of the spear.

    But Grant is the one most personally involved, so to speak, in the cat and mouse game against Bond. He is the one following him, helping him, then preying over him and finally confronting him. He also has way more interaction with him than Klebb. In FRWL, I would say that the henchman is the main villain, or at least that Grant shares equal importance with Rosa Klebb. And this is one of the reasons I find FRWL so brilliant and the best Bond movie (not my favourite, mind you, but the best).

    Then he's a very important henchman.

  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    PTS: FRWL
    Title Track: OHMSS
    Title Credits: OHMSS
    Main Villain: OHMSS
    Main Bond Girl: OHMSS
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: FRWL
    Score: OHMSS
    Settings: OHMSS
    Action: OHMSS
    Humor: FRWL
    Cinematography: OHMSS
    Benign Bizarre: FRWL
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamor: OHMSS
    Henchmen: FRWL

    OHMSS takes it 9-8, and there were a couple on which I could have gone wither way. This is also the first time this ranking has contradicted my own personal ranking.
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    Ludovico wrote:
    WillyGalore wrote:
    As Grant is clearly a subordinate to Klebb, by definition that makes him the henchman and her the main villain.

    Not by definition. There is a difference between the hierarchy, the function and the importance. The Jackal in The Day of the Jackal is a gun for hire, not the head of the organization wanting to assassinate de Gaulle. He is still the main villain. I could give a classic example: in The Barber of Seville, Figaro is the main character, yet the help of who would normally be the hero of the play. In other words, the henchman can be the main villain.

    The difference is, those are relatively minor characters in Day of the Jackal. Lotte Lenya has a more prominent billing in the credits of FRWL than Shaw so coupled with the fact he's taking orders from her, I would class him as the henchman.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    It's interesting how FRWL won by one point when I just tallied mine up, but in a ranking, I don't think OHMSS would be that close to FRWL. Crazy. Maybe I need to return to OHMSS soon and let it blow me away. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but after my list, maybe it's a lot better than I initially believed.
  • Zorin61Zorin61
    Posts: 418
    Creasy47 wrote:
    It's interesting how FRWL won by one point when I just tallied mine up, but in a ranking, I don't think OHMSS would be that close to FRWL. Crazy. Maybe I need to return to OHMSS soon and let it blow me away. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but after my list, maybe it's a lot better than I initially believed.

    FRWL is my all time favourite Bond film and i usually have OHMSS ranked around 7th or 8th - so i was suprised to see OHMSS quite close - 10/7
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    @Zorin61, I'm not even sure what I would rank OHMSS, I just didn't really think it would ever come terribly close to FRWL in a full ranking of mine, but with a one point difference, I'm not so sure now.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    For me, FRWL is by far the better film. Just going by the categories given, I had to score OHMSS more, especially in the music area.
  • Zorin61Zorin61
    Posts: 418
    4EverBonded wrote:
    For me, FRWL is by far the better film. Just going by the categories given, I had to score OHMSS more, especially in the music area.

    Yes, the same for me too..

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    4EverBonded wrote:
    For me, FRWL is by far the better film. Just going by the categories given, I had to score OHMSS more, especially in the music area.
    Yeah, FRWL IS the better film. But this is like the points system in a no-contact Karate match; sure, it LOOKS like OHMSS wins, but let 'em go in the back alley and get dirty and THEN see...
    :))
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    chrisisall wrote:
    4EverBonded wrote:
    For me, FRWL is by far the better film. Just going by the categories given, I had to score OHMSS more, especially in the music area.
    Yeah, FRWL IS the better film. But this is like the points system in a no-contact Karate match; sure, it LOOKS like OHMSS wins, but let 'em go in the back alley and get dirty and THEN see...
    :))

    Ain't that the truth. Especially about point-fighting...
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited November 2013 Posts: 15,229
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    What was the justification for considering Rosa Klebb the main villain in FRWL? I consider Red Grant the main villain, since the main (verbal and physical) showdown is with Grant. If we consider Grant the main villain, then I would certainly award FRWL the win in this category.

    The main villain is usually the brains rather than the brawn. It was Klebb, Blofeld and Kronstein who created SPECTRE's plan and oversaw its instigation. Grant was simply the gifted goon at the sharp end of the spear.

    But Grant is the one most personally involved, so to speak, in the cat and mouse game against Bond. He is the one following him, helping him, then preying over him and finally confronting him. He also has way more interaction with him than Klebb. In FRWL, I would say that the henchman is the main villain, or at least that Grant shares equal importance with Rosa Klebb. And this is one of the reasons I find FRWL so brilliant and the best Bond movie (not my favourite, mind you, but the best).

    Then he's a very important henchman.

    But those are not mutually exclusive.
    WillyGalore wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    WillyGalore wrote:
    As Grant is clearly a subordinate to Klebb, by definition that makes him the henchman and her the main villain.

    Not by definition. There is a difference between the hierarchy, the function and the importance. The Jackal in The Day of the Jackal is a gun for hire, not the head of the organization wanting to assassinate de Gaulle. He is still the main villain. I could give a classic example: in The Barber of Seville, Figaro is the main character, yet the help of who would normally be the hero of the play. In other words, the henchman can be the main villain.

    The difference is, those are relatively minor characters in Day of the Jackal. Lotte Lenya has a more prominent billing in the credits of FRWL than Shaw so coupled with the fact he's taking orders from her, I would class him as the henchman.

    Oh I would not diminish the importance of Rosa Klebb. And Grant is the henchman. But he is also the most prominent antagonist in the movie. And this is why he is such great henchman, maybe the best of the whole series.

    On a side note, I think this is why Jaws is so popular: although a henchman, it is because he is such important antagonist to Bond in TSWLM.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,356
    PTS: From Russia With Love
    Title Track: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Title Credits: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Main Villain: From Russia With Love
    Main Bond Girl: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Overall Plot: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Dialogue: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Score: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Settings: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Action: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Humour: From Russia With Love
    Cinematography: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Benign Bizarre: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Suspense: From Russia With Love
    Minor Characters: From Russia With Love
    Glamor: From Russia With Love
    Henchmen: From Russia With Love
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    PTS: FRWL
    Title Track: OHMSS
    Title Credits: FRWL
    Main Villain: OHMSS
    Main Bond Girl: OHMSS
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: FRWL
    Score: OHMSS
    Settings: OHMSS
    Action: OHMSS
    Humor: OHMSS
    Cinematography: OHMSS
    Benign Bizarre: OHMSS
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamor: OHMSS
    Henchmen: FRWL
  • 00130013
    Posts: 1,817
    PTS: OHMSS
    Title Track: OHMSS
    Title Credits: OHMSS
    Main Villain: OHMSS
    Main Bond Girl: OHMSS
    Overall Plot: OHMSS
    Dialogue: FRWL
    Score: OHMSS
    Settings: OHMSS
    Action: OHMSS
    Humor: FRWL
    Cinematography: OHMSS
    Benign Bizarre: FRWL
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamor: OHMSS
    Henchmen: FRWL

    This round was hard... specially to pick the overall plot as they are among the best of Fleming's works, both translated to the screen with accuracy. In minor characters, we have Draco vs. Kerim, which impossible to choose. Even the Bond girls are both great to me, only Tracy winning by the slightest because of the complexity of her character. But on the whole, I prefer FRWL.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    PTS - OHMSS
    TT - OHMSS
    TC - OHMSS
    MV - FRWL
    MBG - FRWL
    OP - FRWL
    DIALOGUE - FRWL
    SCORE - OHMSS
    SETTING - OHMSS
    ACTION - OHMSS
    HUMOR - OHMSS
    CINEMATOGRAPHY - OHMSS
    BB - OHMSS
    SUSPENSE - FRWL
    MC - OHMSS
    GLAMOR - OHMSS
    HENCHMEN - FRWL
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited November 2013 Posts: 5,080
    As with CR and SF, and FRWL and OHMSS, two films that both have their merits and flaws and both are relatively "close" when it comes to deciding- which one is the better Bond?
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    Please keep these to the original thread. That was the compromise I brokered in order to prevent it from being locked.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    I'm eager to do it so:

    PTS: OP
    Title Track: LALD
    Title Credits: LALD
    Main Villain: OP
    Main Bond Girl: LALD
    Overall Plot: OP
    Dialogue: LALD
    Score: OP
    Settings: OP
    Action: LALD
    Humor: LALD
    Cinematography: OP
    Benign Bizarre: LALD
    Suspense: OP
    Minor Characters: OP
    Glamor: OP
    Henchmen: LALD

    OP narrowly wins for me!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,359
    Keep it here please. Perhaps the OP of this thread could do LALD vs OP next...
    http://mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/8111/from-russia-with-love-vs.-on-her-majesty039s-secret-service-by-the-elements/p6#Item_166
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    Thanks @Murdock for the link.
    Please continue in the thread as linked above.
  • jason_bournejason_bourne
    Posts: 97
    PTS: OHMSS
    Title Track: FRWL
    Title Credits: FRWL
    Main Villain: FRWL
    Main Bond Girl: OHMSS
    Overall Plot: OHMSS
    Dialogue: FRWL
    Score: OHMSS
    Settings: FRWL
    Action: FRWL
    Humor: FRWL
    Cinematography: FRWL
    Benign Bizarre: FRWL
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamor: OHMSS
    Henchmen: FRWL

    FRWL:12 -- OHMSS:5. Again consistent with my Bond ranking. For me, FRWL is the 2nd best Bond movie.
  • minorMajor9thminorMajor9th
    Posts: 157
    PTS: FRWL
    Title Track: OHMSS
    Title Credits: FRWL
    Main Villain: FRWL
    Main Bond Girl: OHMSS
    Overall Plot: OHMSS
    Dialogue: OHMSS
    Score: OHMSS
    Settings: OHMSS
    Action: OHMSS
    Humor: FRWL
    Cinematography: OHMSS
    Benign Bizarre: FRWL
    Suspense: OHMSS
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamor: OHMSS
    Henchmen: FRWL
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    PTS: OHMSS
    Title Track: FRWL
    Title Credits: OHMSS
    Main Villain: FRWL
    Main Bond Girl: OHMSS
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: OHMSS
    Score: OHMSS
    Settings: OHMSS
    Action: OHMSS
    Humor: FRWL
    Cinematography: OHMSS
    Benign Bizarre: FRWL
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamor: OHMSS
    Henchmen: FRWL

    It's strange when we're dividing the films in pieces like this, because i prefer FRWL over OHMSS even though the latter got more points now!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    MrBond wrote:
    It's strange when we're dividing the films in pieces like this, because i prefer FRWL over OHMSS even though the latter got more points now!
    Yeah, right?
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Yeah, right? What the hell does that mean? Yeah is an affirmation yet you finish the sentence with a question mark. Makes no sense whatsoever.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Yeah, right? What the hell does that mean? Yeah is an affirmation yet you finish the sentence with a question mark. Makes no sense whatsoever.
    The "yeah" is an affirmative, and the "right?" is a way of saying RIGHT? As in "^This" or "I totally agree" or "right on" or "you're right here" or "you're not wrong" or "you nailed it" or "f***in' A"...need I go on? :))
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I understood you right away, chrisisall. That's just normal conversation for Americans.
    You were just nicely, casually, agreeing with him, neh? (the "neh" is one way to say the same thing in Japanese.)

    As if anybody cared about that. Sorry, just digressing, I am a bit tired ...

  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    chrisisall wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Yeah, right? What the hell does that mean? Yeah is an affirmation yet you finish the sentence with a question mark. Makes no sense whatsoever.
    The "yeah" is an affirmative, and the "right?" is a way of saying RIGHT? As in "^This" or "I totally agree" or "right on" or "you're right here" or "you're not wrong" or "you nailed it" or "f***in' A"...need I go on? :))

    Actually, it's uptalk, and it's silly.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/caveman-logic/201010/the-uptalk-epidemic

  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Yeah, right? What the hell does that mean? Yeah is an affirmation yet you finish the sentence with a question mark. Makes no sense whatsoever.
    The "yeah" is an affirmative, and the "right?" is a way of saying RIGHT? As in "^This" or "I totally agree" or "right on" or "you're right here" or "you're not wrong" or "you nailed it" or "f***in' A"...need I go on? :))

    Actually, it's uptalk, and it's silly.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/caveman-logic/201010/the-uptalk-epidemic

    HOW IS THIS RELEVANT TO ANYTHING EVER?
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    StirredNotShaken wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Yeah, right? What the hell does that mean? Yeah is an affirmation yet you finish the sentence with a question mark. Makes no sense whatsoever.
    The "yeah" is an affirmative, and the "right?" is a way of saying RIGHT? As in "^This" or "I totally agree" or "right on" or "you're right here" or "you're not wrong" or "you nailed it" or "f***in' A"...need I go on? :))

    Actually, it's uptalk, and it's silly.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/caveman-logic/201010/the-uptalk-epidemic

    HOW IS THIS RELEVANT TO ANYTHING EVER?

    It's not. Just a pet peeve. Just like typing IN ALL CAPS.

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