The origin of the idea that James Bond would take over from M as Head of the British Secret Service?

Dragonpol

It's one of those threads that does what it says on the tin, folks, but bear with me as I elaborate...

I'm not at all sure where/if I read this somewhere many years ago, but it's been bugging the life out of me over the last few weeks and I thought that it was high time that I actually did something about it and started a new thread on this very subject. Google searches have been futile on this question, so I thought I would turn to my fellow MI6 agents and their vast and varied knowledge base and expertise to see if anyone out there can come up with an answer to this one. Does anyone know where I read the idea that was bandied about that once the old male M would retire Commander James Bond as an older secret agent would be the ideal candidate to take over the function of the Head of the British Secret Service, or less romantically the Secret Intelligence Service or MI6.

The idea itself is a little like Ian Fleming's commandeering the 30 Assault Unit (his "Red Indians") during World War II when he was the Assistant to the Director of Naval Intelligence. And on the successor to M, might Chief of Staff Bill Tanner be a better choice?

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. I have posted this thread in the Literary 007 section, but truth be told it could have been in a book on the films. I just want to know if others have ever heard of this theory (and where exactly) or whether it was all a wonderful (mad?) thought of my own?!

It's an esoteric but nonetheless fascinating proposition, but what else do you expect from @Dragonpol at this stage?! Esoterica is my only stock in trade.

Thanks,

Dragonpol.

QBranch

Any chance you heard it from the CR'67 film- where Bond becomes the head of MI6 after an explosion kills M?

RogueAgent

Well that would be the end of Bond then! Unless you subscirbe to the old code name theory to which i do not.

Dragonpol

QBranch wrote:

Any chance you heard it from the CR'67 film- where Bond becomes the head of MI6 after an explosion kills M?

No, but I forgot about that! Good call, @QBranch. There are some interesting ideas in that film for sure!

Dragonpol

RogueAgent wrote:

Well that would be the end of Bond then! Unless you subscirbe to the old code name theory to which i do not.

And no, I don't subscribe to the Codename Theory - this is just something I think I read somewhere, but can't remember where for the life of me!

TheWizardOfIce

I think I may have read of it in passing somewhere (although certainly not in Fleming) but can't recall where. I think it might have been more someone brainstorming rather than a serious suggestion though.

In any event a crap idea so lets hope it never comes to pass.

Might it have been mentioned in passing in Pearson's Authorised Biog? Maybe somewhere near the end Bond might say something like they made him an offer but its not for him? Don't think so though.

harkaway

The introduction of Anthony Burgess to the old Coronet editions:
"he would now be an old man perhaps ready to retire in M's job"

Ludovico

harkaway wrote:

The introduction of Anthony Burgess to the old Coronet editions:
"he would now be an old man perhaps ready to retire in M's job"

Anthony Burgess, my favourite writer. I never thought he could be at the beginning of this. But he was merely speculating about the effect of ageing over Bond, something that has scarcely been explored in the movies. I think the comes more from CR67, and is a sort of by-product of the codename theory.

thelivingroyale

Not Bond, but in Tom Clancys Jack Ryan series he eventually became director of the CIA and even ends up becoming the US president.

Dragonpol

harkaway wrote:

The introduction of Anthony Burgess to the old Coronet editions:
"he would now be an old man perhaps ready to retire in M's job"

Ah! I think that may be it! Thanks so much, @harkaway! I remember that 1987 Introduction well, but have not really read over it for some years. If anyone knows of any other mentions in critical books like Amis or O.F. Snelling or whatever please add your mentions to this thread. I never expected to get such a good response to this one and I agree with @TheWizardOfIce that it's not a great idea, though I do find it kind of interesting as an Alternative Reality Bond idea, quite apart from the rest of the Bond universe we know and love.

It's just that I have a real feeling that it was mentioned elsewhere myself...

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

harkaway wrote:

The introduction of Anthony Burgess to the old Coronet editions:
"he would now be an old man perhaps ready to retire in M's job"

Anthony Burgess, my favourite writer. I never thought he could be at the beginning of this. But he was merely speculating about the effect of ageing over Bond, something that has scarcely been explored in the movies. I think the comes more from CR67, and is a sort of by-product of the codename theory.

Oh, I think this one predates the Codename Theory by many decades by my reasoning and it's much for credible for an aging Bond, too, I might add. You could say it was a long lost older brother of the Codename Theory though I guess.

Ludovico

Maybe more a long lost brother. Both appear in CR67, which makes me think they both originate from the spoof. Which speaks volumes about the codename theory, by the way.

pachazo

thelivingroyale wrote:

Not Bond, but in Tom Clancys Jack Ryan series he eventually became director of the CIA and even ends up becoming the US president.

I thought of that too. You beat me to it. I think Clancy went too far with making him the President.

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

In any event a crap idea so lets hope it never comes to pass.

Agreed. What would be next? Bond's son, James Bond Jr, becoming the new 007 and having to take orders from Daddy?

Dragonpol

thelivingroyale wrote:

Not Bond, but in Tom Clancys Jack Ryan series he eventually became director of the CIA and even ends up becoming the US president.

Now that's an interesting alternative nugget of information there, @thelivingroyale. It adds to the Bond one somewhat. By the way I'm not suggesting that it was a good or a bad idea, I'm just glad to find out that it exists really and that I was not at all mistaken in thinking I had read it somewhere before at some point in time.

As always, if anyone else knows more on this theory of James Bond taking over from M, whatever the source, I'd really love to hear from you as it's all grist to the mill!

Ludovico

It is not so much a theory as a speculation. Although if one believes in the codename theory it is an extension theory I guess.

Dragonpol

Ludovico wrote:

It is not so much a theory as a speculation, @Ludovico. Although if one believes in the codename theory it is an extension theory I guess.

Well it was the wrong choice of word on my part, then. "Speculation" is definitely a much better word and it fits in well with what Anthony Burgess said, if in fact there is an earlier version of this concept of Boind taking over from M.

00Ed

The idea of Bond eventually taking over as M has been floating around for just about as long as I can remember. It's part of the perpetual fan speculation over how Bond's saga would end. It seems to be the primary alternative to Bond dying in battle against Blofeld.

Personally, I prefer to imagine that James Bond ultimately retires quietly to Jamaica to pursue his lifelong passion for ornithology. But that's just me.

TheWizardOfIce

00Ed wrote:

Personally, I prefer to imagine that James Bond ultimately retires quietly to Jamaica to pursue his lifelong passion for ornithology.

Any chance of you quoting your sources for this statement?

I wouldn't say having sat through a lecture about the Audubon society by Pleydell Smith or getting a bit annoyed when Scaramanga shoots two crows qualifies as a lifelong passion myself.

Dragonpol

00Ed wrote:

The idea of Bond eventually taking over as M has been floating around for just about as long as I can remember. It's part of the perpetual fan speculation over how Bond's saga would end. It seems to be the primary alternative to Bond dying in battle against Blofeld.

Personally, I prefer to imagine that James Bond ultimately retires quietly to Jamaica to pursue his lifelong passion for ornithology. But that's just me.

Interesting to hear of this idea's heritage. I wasn't aware it was about so long but I'd love to know of any sources for this that you may have to add.

Soundofthesinners

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

00Ed wrote:

Personally, I prefer to imagine that James Bond ultimately retires quietly to Jamaica to pursue his lifelong passion for ornithology.

Any chance of you quoting your sources for this statement?

I wouldn't say having sat through a lecture about the Audubon society by Pleydell Smith or getting a bit annoyed when Scaramanga shoots two crows qualifies as a lifelong passion myself.

I believe, although I'm not @00Ed, that it's a reference to Bond's being named after an ornithologist (the source of one of the few tolerable gags in Die Another Day), combined with Ian Fleming's love for all things Jamaican.

00Ed

Dragonpol wrote:

Interesting to hear of this idea's heritage. I wasn't aware it was about so long but I'd love to know of any sources for this that you may have to add.

Honestly, @Dragonpol, every time I've heard the Bond-becomes-M theory, it has been mere fan speculation on a message board or in a live conversation. Some people may have gotten the idea from CR67. Others may have heard it from someone else. Still others may have imagined it independently. Whatever the case, I get the sense that it is one of the more perennially popular End-of-Bond scenarios, the other being that Bond and Blofeld would kill each other in a final confrontation (I've heard that Tom Mankiewicz actually wrote a screenplay with that conclusion).

Soundofthesinners wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

00Ed wrote:

Personally, I prefer to imagine that James Bond ultimately retires quietly to Jamaica to pursue his lifelong passion for ornithology.

Any chance of you quoting your sources for this statement?

I wouldn't say having sat through a lecture about the Audubon society by Pleydell Smith or getting a bit annoyed when Scaramanga shoots two crows qualifies as a lifelong passion myself.

I believe, although I'm not @00Ed, that it's a reference to Bond's being named after an ornithologist (the source of one of the few tolerable gags in Die Another Day), combined with Ian Fleming's love for all things Jamaican.

You've nailed it, @Soundofthesinners. It's just my own personal 4th-Wall-breaking gag. My preferred End-of-Bond scenario would have him retire from Her Majesty's Secret Service, move to Jamaica, take up ornithology, and ultimately publish a book titled Birds of the West Indies. This book would then inspire an aspiring novelist to name a fictional character after him.

Dragonpol

00Ed wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Interesting to hear of this idea's heritage. I wasn't aware it was about so long but I'd love to know of any sources for this that you may have to add.

Honestly, @Dragonpol, every time I've heard the Bond-becomes-M theory, it has been mere fan speculation on a message board or in a live conversation. Some people may have gotten the idea from CR67. Others may have heard it from someone else. Still others may have imagined it independently. Whatever the case, I get the sense that it is one of the more perennially popular End-of-Bond scenarios, the other being that Bond and Blofeld would kill each other in a final confrontation (I've heard that Tom Mankiewicz actually wrote a screenplay with that conclusion).

Soundofthesinners wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

00Ed wrote:

Personally, I prefer to imagine that James Bond ultimately retires quietly to Jamaica to pursue his lifelong passion for ornithology.

Any chance of you quoting your sources for this statement?

I wouldn't say having sat through a lecture about the Audubon society by Pleydell Smith or getting a bit annoyed when Scaramanga shoots two crows qualifies as a lifelong passion myself.

I believe, although I'm not @00Ed, that it's a reference to Bond's being named after an ornithologist (the source of one of the few tolerable gags in Die Another Day), combined with Ian Fleming's love for all things Jamaican.

You've nailed it, @Soundofthesinners. It's just my own personal 4th-Wall-breaking gag. My preferred End-of-Bond scenario would have him retire from Her Majesty's Secret Service, move to Jamaica, take up ornithology, and ultimately publish a book titled Birds of the West Indies. This book would then inspire an aspiring novelist to name a fictional character after him.

Thank you for that, @00Ed. It's great to hear this idea is well known in Bond fandom. Also, I'd not heard of the Bond-Blofeld battle to the death scenario before - do you have any sources for that? Most intriguing.

I also like your suggestion of what Bond did in retirement. In fact, it sounds like what Fleming did with Bond's Obituary in The Times in YOLT!

00Ed

Dragonpol wrote:

Thank you for that, @00Ed. It's great to hear this idea is well known in Bond fandom. Also, I'd not heard of the Bond-Blofeld battle to the death scenario before - do you have any sources for that? Most intriguing.

I also like your suggestion of what Bond did in retirement. In fact, it sounds like what Fleming did with Bon's Obituary in The Times in YOLT!

I'm afraid that my sources for the Bond vs. Blofeld thing are mostly on-line articles and message board posts that I haven't bothered to save. I'll see if I can dig up a link or something. I've made a few cursory searches for the rumored Mankiewicz screenplay (which I first heard about in the late '90s from an alt.fan.james-bond contributor who called himself "Proteus"), but I haven't come up with anything. At this point, I'm less than convinced that it really exists.

And as for Bond's retirement, yes, the thought is a little bit along the line of the YOLT obit. Congratulations, you know your Fleming.

Dragonpol

00Ed wrote:

Dragonpol wrote:

Thank you for that, @00Ed. It's great to hear this idea is well known in Bond fandom. Also, I'd not heard of the Bond-Blofeld battle to the death scenario before - do you have any sources for that? Most intriguing.

I also like your suggestion of what Bond did in retirement. In fact, it sounds like what Fleming did with Bon's Obituary in The Times in YOLT!

I'm afraid that my sources for the Bond vs. Blofeld thing are mostly on-line articles and message board posts that I haven't bothered to save. I'll see if I can dig up a link or something. I've made a few cursory searches for the rumored Mankiewicz screenplay (which I first heard about in the late '90s from an alt.fan.james-bond contributor who called himself "Proteus"), but I haven't come up with anything. At this point, I'm less than convinced that it really exists.

And as for Bond's retirement, yes, the thought is a little bit along the line of the YOLT obit. Congratulations, you know your Fleming.

Well, thank you for making the effort to look out for those posts for me. I really appreciate that. And on Ian Fleming's work, yes, I do try.

007InVT

harkaway wrote:

The introduction of Anthony Burgess to the old Coronet editions:
"he would now be an old man perhaps ready to retire in M's job"

Do you have any more quotes from Burgess?