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Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • PerdoggPerdogg
    Posts: 686
    "bondjames wrote:
    RE: EON - certainly the creative decline with DAD helped them to up their game, but the long break also helped imho. It raised the stakes - similarly with GE following the commercial failure that was LTK, CR followed the critical failure that was DAD. EON seems to rise from the ashes whenever the stakes are high. Failure is good for them it seems and good for the longevity of the franchise.

    I am not trying to be rude, but is this is a laugh riot. CR was better because it sandwich between DAD and QoS. QoS was a Transporter ripoff and Skyfoolen was a ripoff of The Dark Knight. Now EON is going back to those "repugnant and distasteful days" of 'Spectre'. And they have the nerve to tell us that LTK failed because people were backwards.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    Laugh all you want Perdogg you still invented out of thin air a critical backlash against SF that did not exist and CR was successful for its intrinsic values too. Yes Bond movies are influenced by their time. FRWL was influenced by Hitchcock. But QOS by Transporter? Have you seen either movies? Or did you see them like you read all those negative reviews of SF?
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Pierce was the victim of the times for me. After Goldeneye it became about being hip or cool by trying to mimic other action films in the cinema at the time and as a result it became less about story and more about what big outlandish and rediculous things they could do with the cars etc. the films gradually lost their way. Had Brosnan got decent serious scripts and the franchise stayed true to its roots then Brosnans Bond would have been so much better. Worth mentioning that Tim was a last minute choice as Brosnan pulled out of TLD at the 11th hour due to Remington steel being picked up late on by its network meaning that contractually Brosnan could no longer commit to Bond. Tim therefore had a small amount of time to prepare, considering this I think he did a fine fine job.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I don't really see the connection between QoS and Transporter to be honest, except for maybe the car chase opening scene but even that's a stretch. Maybe the writer's strike influenced pared down dialogue?
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Brosnan was still popular after DAD but not nearly as much as after GE. Or even when Dalton was cast as Bond. I do think he contributed to both the unpopularity of Dalton and ultimately the success of Craig. Dalton was perceived as an usurper. But Brosnan was getting old and had no clear successor.

    Well said. I agree. Brosnan did contribute to the unpopularity of Dalton, but he also contributed to the success of Craig, at least for me.....

    It is true also that he did not have a clear successor, unlike Moore, who did, ironically in Brosnan rather than Dalton (if one was looking for someone to carry on the Moore style legacy - and many were at the time).

    Creatively, Dalton brought answers to questions no one was asking at the time. Craig brought answers to creative questions that many of us were demanding after DAD/TWINE.

    People grew far more critical towards Brosnan as time went on. He didn't have the stature of Moore either.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't really see the connection between QoS and Transporter to be honest, except for maybe the car chase opening scene but even that's a stretch. Maybe the writer's strike influenced pared down dialogue?

    The main bit for me that feels kind of Jason Statham-ish in QoS is the moment he flips the bike and kicks the goon unconscious.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't really see the connection between QoS and Transporter to be honest, except for maybe the car chase opening scene but even that's a stretch. Maybe the writer's strike influenced pared down dialogue?

    The main bit for me that feels kind of Jason Statham-ish in QoS is the moment he flips the bike and kicks the goon unconscious.
    Fair enough.... I guess having a live body in the trunk (in the form of Mr. White) during an aggressive high speed car chase also evokes Transporter to a degree.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't really see the connection between QoS and Transporter to be honest, except for maybe the car chase opening scene but even that's a stretch. Maybe the writer's strike influenced pared down dialogue?

    The main bit for me that feels kind of Jason Statham-ish in QoS is the moment he flips the bike and kicks the goon unconscious.

    Hmmm, errr, ok. That is pretty thin though.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Yes, it's really the only moment in the film that really echoes Statham for me. I suppose you could also count the lift fight with its quick cutting.

    Quantum is probably a few notches above Statham's films in that it consciously tries to be more serious.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    The dialogues of QOS are also far superior. But we are digressing.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,263
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    I think the topic is mis-named. Dalton did not fail, the studio issues stopped the continious production of the movies, Tim could not commit further due to the issues. I think Tim did well and I think had he done another he would have been more fondly remembered and seen as a stronger association with the charachter. I love DC he is a joint 1st with Connery in my opinion now, but imagine if Dan quit after QOS. I think he would have only been remembered as fondly as Dalton.

    Amen to that.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    Should have, could have, could have. It is not unfair to say that Dalton was not as popular a Bond when he became Bond. Through no fault of his own. In that regard he "failed" (yes it is an unfair word but used to keep it short and simple and to create an impact). As for Craig, CR was already more critically successful than TLD and more popular. Had he stopped after QOS people would still remember him fondly for CR... and not hold a grudge against him for QOS.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The dark ages was 95-02. Just correcting your error, friend.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.

    I think Dalton would work better now. People weren't ready for him.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.

    I think Dalton would work better now. People weren't ready for him.

    Also, he came off as second choice, in many people's mind. I think it affected him and his performance to a degree. He was far more assertive in say The Rocketeer.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.

    I think Dalton would work better now. People weren't ready for him.

    Also, he came off as second choice

    Yes, this was also a big problem. To use a bad analogy, it's similar to when a football club hires a manager who wasn't first choice. The subsequent atmosphere that tends to permeate the club is something they can never really come back from.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Lol, I knew someone would extend the dark ages until 2002. I hated die another day as much as the next person. I still loved Brosnans first three to varying degrees
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    edited June 2015 Posts: 3,566
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    Lol, I knew someone would extend the dark ages until 2002. I hated die another day as much as the next person. I still loved Brosnans first three to varying degrees

    Which begs the question: Why did Pierce succeed while Brosnan failed? ;))
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Wasn't Irish enough
  • PerdoggPerdogg
    Posts: 686
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.

    I think Dalton would work better now. People weren't ready for him.

    Also, he came off as second choice, in many people's mind. I think it affected him and his performance to a degree. He was far more assertive in say The Rocketeer.

    I think the problem with Dalton, just as the problem in my mind since Moore, was creative end. When Moore just about all of Fleming titles with reasonable story lines were gone save for Casino Royale which EON did not have the rights to at the time.

  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    There was certainly some creativity issues, but people did not see them or mind with Moore. Or Brosnan, for that matter, even when they became far more acute.
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.

    I think Dalton would work better now. People weren't ready for him.

    Also, he came off as second choice

    Yes, this was also a big problem. To use a bad analogy, it's similar to when a football club hires a manager who wasn't first choice. The subsequent atmosphere that tends to permeate the club is something they can never really come back from.

    Dalton expressed his frustration in an interview during filming of LTK. He was saying the movie may be the last. Not his last Bond, but the last Bond. By hindsight, I suspect he meant: "you don't like me in the role? Fine, but I'm carrying the torch here."
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    After 1985, a certain amount of people had a misconception of what James Bond movies should be about. If he wasn't banging four hot chicks in one movie or dealing with a plot to rule all of earth from the villains hidden base on Uranus, they didn't know what to think. What is this shit? Bond only screws one chick? In the whole movie?? Pussy.
    All jokes aside, the living daylights had a great opening weekend. But it fell off big time after that. I loved bond back then. I saw them in theaters as many times as I could. But goddamnit, we then went into the dark ages from 89-95. Not the best times.

    I think there was a lot of that going on. A false perception about what Bond should be, especially regarding the Bond girls. That said, I never thought Dalton was quite convincing as a seducer.

    I think Dalton would work better now. People weren't ready for him.

    True.
    People were ready for change.
    People were ready for a serious Bond.
    People were ready for a younger Bond.

    But, people weren't ready for Timothy Dalton.
  • fjdinardofjdinardo
    Posts: 1,970
    Ok here's an interesting question/ scenario. Say Brosnan got the role of Bond in 1986. He played Bond all the way until DAD and retired. Now you need to pick a new Bond now here's the catch.

    Say if Dalton was the same age as Craig born the same year 1968 and you had to pick the next Bond between Craig & Dalton for CR. Who would you pick an why? Knowing what we already know about both Actors and the way they played the role.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,105
    There's too many IFs in this scenario. I'd still pick Craig because I think he's more comfortable in the role. Had Brosnan been cast as Bond back in 1986 he would have been better accepted I think, but on the long run the franchise would have suffered.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    36 year old Dalton vs 36 year old Craig? I would still choose Dalton. Dalton played what was still Bond, but with a new twist, bringing qualities we hadn't seen before.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Had Brosnan been cast as Bond back in 1986 he would have been better accepted I think, but on the long run the franchise would have suffered.

    No so sure. In my opinion he is arguably the best thing about each of his four films. The creative decisions and lack of genuine direction were the real problem during his tenure.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    As one of Brosnan's biggest fans. I don't think he was right for Bond in the 80's. He looked too young and it's possible that after TLD had it remained the same, the films that followed might have been more in vain of Roger's era. Dalton was perfect at the time, but sadly the Business with McClory really screwed him out of one or two movies.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Still Craig, I couldn't see CR with Dalton despite him being my no. 3 Bond and being a big advocate of him during his tenure and throughout Brosnan's.

    Craig's just got something I just don't see in Dalton, Craig can be dangerous but also sardonic and witty. Dalton just looks uncomfortable or pissed off when he's trying to be humorous.

    For instance, "what if I felt compelled to" and the whole scene before that, where Craig turns his being mistaken for a member of staff into an advantage to gain entrance to the security room, Dalton wouldn't of sold that scene half as well.

    To be honest we'd have got quite a different film, I just don't see how Dalton would have made the wide impact Craig has, his fans can say all they like but Craig has more star appeal and yes he might well of taken influence from Tim but he brings enough of himself to the role to make it feel like a totally different Bond.




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