Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • Posts: 6,601
    To not annoy others too much with this force and back banter, I stop after this.

    Fact is, you don't mention DC in EVERY of your negative posts, no, but your posts remain "unpleased" towards EVERY aspect of the last three films and THIS is, what I call "hatred". Nothing is ever so bad, that you won't find something nice. IF you wanted to be fair.

    As for Daltion and me, I rarely go there, BECAUSE I know, I have probably not much positive to say, but I am NOT hating on every aspect of his films, which I saw - in the theater.
    But after thinking this through, I might even stop commenting on his thread all together. Its true, if you have nothing nice to say, better be quiet.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Its true, if you have nothing nice to say, better be quiet.

    I'm not sure that is true. This forum would be a pretty boring place if it was a constant stream of hand shandies. As for @MajorDSmythe, I don't recall him ever approaching 'hatred', perhaps he does hate this era, but he's certainly not volatile and he's entitled to dislike it. There are only two groups of fans I've seen get genuinely angry re. the actors. One group are a faction of DC fans who blow a fuse when anything negative is said re. his tenure and the other group are those who absolutely loathe Brosnan. Some sit neatly in both categories.
  • edited June 2015 Posts: 6,601
    RC7 wrote: »
    Germanlady wrote: »
    Its true, if you have nothing nice to say, better be quiet.

    I'm not sure that is true. This forum would be a pretty boring place if it was a constant stream of hand shandies. As for @MajorDSmythe, I don't recall him ever approaching 'hatred', perhaps he does hate this era, but he's certainly not volatile and he's entitled to dislike it. There are only two groups of fans I've seen get genuinely angry re. the actors. One group are a faction of DC fans who blow a fuse when anything negative is said re. his tenure and the other group are those who absolutely loathe Brosnan. Some sit neatly in both categories.

    I promised "fill in smiley with plaster on its mouth"
    ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    RC7 wrote: »
    There are only two groups of fans I've seen get genuinely angry re. the actors. One group are a faction of DC fans who blow a fuse when anything negative is said re. his tenure and the other group are those who absolutely loathe Brosnan. Some sit neatly in both categories.
    I've noticed that too. L-) I have my favourite actors, and my not-favourite actors, but I like 'em all, really. This angry thing confuses me... :-??
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    There are only two groups of fans I've seen get genuinely angry re. the actors. One group are a faction of DC fans who blow a fuse when anything negative is said re. his tenure and the other group are those who absolutely loathe Brosnan. Some sit neatly in both categories.
    I've noticed that too. L-) I have my favourite actors, and my not-favourite actors, but I like 'em all, really. This angry thing confuses me... :-??

    Couldn't agree more.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @Birdleson, I'm exactly the opposite. I really did not like Dalton at all when he was Bond. I longed for Brosnan and I didn't accept him at the time.

    I'm ashamed of that now. I realize I prejudged him. Emotionally (I was younger then), as I saw him as a usurper (as @Ludovico said).

    I look back on his Bond films with real respect and appreciation. He's grown on me....aged well like fine wine. No doubt Craig helped me to see Dalton in a new light, but the outlandish last few from Brosnan also helped in that regard.

    I am 100% in agreement about the comical elements though. They were not his strong suit, although I still enjoy those bits now (the bar fight in LTK is just horrendously written, as are some of the bits with Q and with Bouvier).
  • Posts: 15,105
    I know I repeat myself, but I do think Brosnan played a role in both his predecessor's and successor's popularity in the role.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Birdleson wrote: »
    As I've said many times on these boards, and as others have as well, I like all six of them. But Dalton looks weaker the further we get away from those films. I really enjoyed his portrayal, if not necessarily the films themselves, when they were released. Now watching them, I get pretty uncomfortable when he is called upon to be flip or humorous. He is marvelous for a good chunk of LTK, in the scenes that seem tailored to his abilities, but then there are these odd comical bits thrown in with Q, or in the bar fight, that just feel like they were written for Moore. Maybe by the third film the writers would have recognized and written solely to Dalton's strengths. But that is mute at this point.

    That sums up Dalton for me, those moments really don't do any favours for LTK, it hasn't dated well, yes he has some superb moments but consistency has always been his problem even though it's better in TLD it's still not brilliant.

    This is why Craig has been more of success with fans and also the general public, a confidence from the bat in all areas.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I really think it has more to do with direction (actual direction, as well as direction EON was going at the time, which was dubious), production quality, & script more than it does Dalton...

    Dalton as Bond at his best is up there with the best I've ever seen from Connery, Moore & Craig when he's on his game. Absolutely sublime...

    Martin Campbell directing Dalton would have got us the box office killer he never had.
  • Posts: 686
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't want to make this thread about Brosnan (there is already a thread for that) but I have to disagree.

    He is not the best thing in his 4 movies imho. I don't think that he transcended those movies whatsoever, but rather existed within them. In the case of TWINE in particular, I think he was among the worst things in it with his affected acting (just my opinion of course).

    Craig on the other hand, did transcend QoS. Very few people criticized his performance, even though the film took flack. In fact, he cemented his reputation as Bond in a film that had its detractors. Brosnan never did that in any of his movies from my perspective, except maybe in DAD ironically, where he gave his most confident portrayal as 007.

    Dalton was undoubtedly too heavy handed in LTK, but that is the direction they were headed in with that film. Everything about it was violent and gritty and gutsy. Personally, I love Kamen's score (he's no Barry, but he is certainly better than what has come since).

    I thought Brosnan was dealt a bad hand. LTK was a train wreck, as were SF and QoS. CR was decent only because it came after DAD. MHO, I am sorry if my opinion offends the Craigy Boppers.

    I'm not suggesting PB wasn't dealt a bad hand. That's clear, as EON had its head up its rear at the time, not to mention MGM fiddling etc. However, the man did not do what he should have done with the role he coveted in my opinion. He should have been better as Bond.....that has nothing to do with scripts....it has to do with him imho. I just did not find him credible on many an occasion.

    Craig on the other hand, has exceeded my expectations. He's not perfect by any means, but he is very good at making his Bond believable, real & dangerous......for me

    Brosnan was dealt the best of hands in fact: everyone or almost wanted him at the time. Never a Bond actor been accepted so easily as Bond before a single scene was ever shot. Not even Moore I think. He didn't have to earn the role the way the others did.

    Brosnan was a good actor, proven actor, who was given crappy scripts and bad directors.

  • Posts: 15,105
    Perdogg wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't want to make this thread about Brosnan (there is already a thread for that) but I have to disagree.

    He is not the best thing in his 4 movies imho. I don't think that he transcended those movies whatsoever, but rather existed within them. In the case of TWINE in particular, I think he was among the worst things in it with his affected acting (just my opinion of course).

    Craig on the other hand, did transcend QoS. Very few people criticized his performance, even though the film took flack. In fact, he cemented his reputation as Bond in a film that had its detractors. Brosnan never did that in any of his movies from my perspective, except maybe in DAD ironically, where he gave his most confident portrayal as 007.

    Dalton was undoubtedly too heavy handed in LTK, but that is the direction they were headed in with that film. Everything about it was violent and gritty and gutsy. Personally, I love Kamen's score (he's no Barry, but he is certainly better than what has come since).

    I thought Brosnan was dealt a bad hand. LTK was a train wreck, as were SF and QoS. CR was decent only because it came after DAD. MHO, I am sorry if my opinion offends the Craigy Boppers.

    I'm not suggesting PB wasn't dealt a bad hand. That's clear, as EON had its head up its rear at the time, not to mention MGM fiddling etc. However, the man did not do what he should have done with the role he coveted in my opinion. He should have been better as Bond.....that has nothing to do with scripts....it has to do with him imho. I just did not find him credible on many an occasion.

    Craig on the other hand, has exceeded my expectations. He's not perfect by any means, but he is very good at making his Bond believable, real & dangerous......for me

    Brosnan was dealt the best of hands in fact: everyone or almost wanted him at the time. Never a Bond actor been accepted so easily as Bond before a single scene was ever shot. Not even Moore I think. He didn't have to earn the role the way the others did.

    Brosnan was a good actor, proven actor, who was given crappy scripts and bad directors.

    Brosnan was/is a good but limited actor. He can be carried by a good script, but he cannot carry a poor one. All the same, no other Bond actor got it so easily when cast: the public had had enough of Dalton and thought Brosnan was Moore's rightful heir, they thought he had the perfect look, he had been building his whole pre-Bond career on the role he'd always wanted, he never faced the hostility Craig had to face from day one. That's what I call a great hand. GE was condemned to be a success. Once he had the role, Brosnan never had to earn it, the way Craig had to (and did), or Dalton had to, but failed, at least for the public of the time.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't want to make this thread about Brosnan (there is already a thread for that) but I have to disagree.

    He is not the best thing in his 4 movies imho. I don't think that he transcended those movies whatsoever, but rather existed within them. In the case of TWINE in particular, I think he was among the worst things in it with his affected acting (just my opinion of course).

    Craig on the other hand, did transcend QoS. Very few people criticized his performance, even though the film took flack. In fact, he cemented his reputation as Bond in a film that had its detractors. Brosnan never did that in any of his movies from my perspective, except maybe in DAD ironically, where he gave his most confident portrayal as 007.

    Dalton was undoubtedly too heavy handed in LTK, but that is the direction they were headed in with that film. Everything about it was violent and gritty and gutsy. Personally, I love Kamen's score (he's no Barry, but he is certainly better than what has come since).

    I thought Brosnan was dealt a bad hand. LTK was a train wreck, as were SF and QoS. CR was decent only because it came after DAD. MHO, I am sorry if my opinion offends the Craigy Boppers.

    I'm not suggesting PB wasn't dealt a bad hand. That's clear, as EON had its head up its rear at the time, not to mention MGM fiddling etc. However, the man did not do what he should have done with the role he coveted in my opinion. He should have been better as Bond.....that has nothing to do with scripts....it has to do with him imho. I just did not find him credible on many an occasion.

    Craig on the other hand, has exceeded my expectations. He's not perfect by any means, but he is very good at making his Bond believable, real & dangerous......for me

    Brosnan was dealt the best of hands in fact: everyone or almost wanted him at the time. Never a Bond actor been accepted so easily as Bond before a single scene was ever shot. Not even Moore I think. He didn't have to earn the role the way the others did.

    Brosnan was a good actor, proven actor, who was given crappy scripts and bad directors.

    Brosnan was/is a good but limited actor. He can be carried by a good script, but he cannot carry a poor one. All the same, no other Bond actor got it so easily when cast: the public had had enough of Dalton and thought Brosnan was Moore's rightful heir, they thought he had the perfect look, he had been building his whole pre-Bond career on the role he'd always wanted, he never faced the hostility Craig had to face from day one. That's what I call a great hand. GE was condemned to be a success. Once he had the role, Brosnan never had to earn it, the way Craig had to (and did), or Dalton had to, but failed, at least for the public of the time.

    I fully agree. There is no doubt about this in my mind.

    Dalton had to live with being '2nd best' by everyone, including me, I'm ashamed to say.

    Brosnan had it all to lose, and that may have been the very problem. The expectations may have been too high for him to live up to, although he definitely tried.

    I agree wtih @Ludivico's point that he is a good but limited actor who can carry a good script but not a poor one.. He was given poor scripts, but did not transcend them. Other Bond actors have transcended their poor scripts imho.
  • Posts: 686


    "Craig on the other hand, has exceeded my expectations. He's not perfect by any means,

    Not even close..Must not have high expectations.

    " but he is very good at making his Bond believable, real & dangerous......for me"


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Perdogg wrote: »
    " but he is very good at making his Bond believable, real & dangerous......for me"

    This is the critical point I was making earlier. Craig is credible to me, but not perfect. That is paramount for a Bond actor, I think.......credibility & believability.

    The closest to perfection I have seen in Bond is Sean Connery in his first two, and fourth.
  • Posts: 15,105
    I'd also say that Daniel Craig is far more comfortable than Dalton with all the bagages that comes with the icon that is James Bond while being far more comfortable than Brosnan playing Bond as a character.

    What is also certain in my mind is that Brosnan did not have the aura he once had when he left the role. People may have thought he could do more but he did not have the entitlement to the role anymore.
  • Posts: 15,105
    I thought about it: Dalton was basically fighting against a ghost in 1987. Nobody knew how Brosnan would play or would have played Bond then, so there was a lot of projection form the public. Since Brosnan had no clear successor, no heir apparent, Craig had no true rival. He could also be compared to Brosnan as Bond, as we've had four films of Brosnan tenure.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    You're certainly correct about that @Ludovico.

    The ghost (or aura if you will) of Brosnan haunted Dalton during his tenure. It was a strawman though, because no one knew what the portrayal would be like.

    That is the power of the public for you, and I count myself one of them. Rather than taking out our frustration (on having our wishes & desires ignored) on NBC (for ordering those last few episodes of Remington Steele), we instead projected our grievances on Dalton.
  • Posts: 15,105
    I didn't know about Remington Steele. I had seen Brosnan in Around the World in 80 Days, knew he was supposed to be Bond, and this it was enough for me: why wasn't he? Nothing that Dalton could have done would have changed that. It's beyond a strawman, it is really a ghost from the future. Brosnan was a thorn at Dalton's side, and he had pierced (sorry for the pun) an artery. Craig may have faced hostility, but Brosnan's star had waned and he had his critics, even some detractors, by 2005. And I think it did play a role on the long run for Craig's success.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    ICraig may have faced hostility, but Brosnan's star had waned and he had his critics, even some detractors, by 2005. And I think it did play a role on the long run for Craig's success.

    From my perspective at least, this is very true.

    He looked great in GE (as did the film) - exactly how I expected him to look, but something was off for me which I couldn't quite put my finger on....I put it down to nerves.

    From my point of view it was somewhere in TND where the wheels fell off (not sure where) but by the end of my first viewing in the theatre, the aura was gone. TWINE sealed it.
  • Posts: 686
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I didn't know about Remington Steele. I had seen Brosnan in Around the World in 80 Days, knew he was supposed to be Bond, and this it was enough for me: why wasn't he? Nothing that Dalton could have done would have changed that. It's beyond a strawman, it is really a ghost from the future. Brosnan was a thorn at Dalton's side, and he had pierced (sorry for the pun) an artery. Craig may have faced hostility, but Brosnan's star had waned and he had his critics, even some detractors, by 2005. And I think it did play a role on the long run for Craig's success.

    Brosnan played a Soviet illegal in "The Fourth Protocol", was great in it.. Dalton failure was due to many factors including an awful LTK, Bond Fatigue, and growing box office irrelevancy of the Bond Series (to the point where EON is 'stealing' from Chris Nolan's Batman) . Brosnan failure was due to garbage such as Tomorrow Never Dies, TWINE, and of course Die Another Day.

    Craig got the advantage in coming after DAD, eventhough all of his movies are a heap of PC mediocrity.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Heres a question. Had LTK been successful at the Box office, had MGM/Eon not go into financial trouble, had Dalton been able to do his 3rd film on his contract in 1991 would Dalton had continue to be Bond after his 3rd film? or was it always going to be finish up Daltons contract so we can bring in Brosnan right away?
  • Posts: 686
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    Heres a question. Had LTK been successful at the Box office, had MGM/Eon not go into financial trouble, had Dalton been able to do his 3rd film on his contract in 1991 would Dalton had continue to be Bond after his 3rd film? or was it always going to be finish up Daltons contract so we can bring in Brosnan right away?

    IIRC, the third Dalton Bond was already planned. If the rumors were to be believed, Bond was supposed to have done battle with fembots. That would have officially killed the series.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Perdogg wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    Heres a question. Had LTK been successful at the Box office, had MGM/Eon not go into financial trouble, had Dalton been able to do his 3rd film on his contract in 1991 would Dalton had continue to be Bond after his 3rd film? or was it always going to be finish up Daltons contract so we can bring in Brosnan right away?

    IIRC, the third Dalton Bond was already planned. If the rumors were to be believed, Bond was supposed to have done battle with fembots. That would have officially killed the series.

    T2 influence most likely (EON tends to follow the trend).
  • Posts: 1,970
    Perdogg wrote: »
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    Heres a question. Had LTK been successful at the Box office, had MGM/Eon not go into financial trouble, had Dalton been able to do his 3rd film on his contract in 1991 would Dalton had continue to be Bond after his 3rd film? or was it always going to be finish up Daltons contract so we can bring in Brosnan right away?

    IIRC, the third Dalton Bond was already planned. If the rumors were to be believed, Bond was supposed to have done battle with fembots. That would have officially killed the series.

    I have never heard this rumor actually. Omg if that happened good bye James Bond. No coming back from that imo.

    Maybe it was a good thing we never got Daltons 3rd movie
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Actually, I don't think it would have been all bad:

    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/bond_17_intro.php3
  • Posts: 1,970
    My question was never answered. Would Eon have continued with Dalton after his 3rd film? Or was it always finish up with Dalton to get Brosnan in right away?

    Cause imo Brosnan was always getting the role eventually no matter what. I just can't think of Bond series not having Brosnan in the role at some point.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think there are too many hypotheticals in that question. I don't think EON was clamouring for Brosnan (although MGM might have been) so it would have depended on how successful Dalton's 3rd was.

    Knowing Cubby, he would have pulled out all the stops to make Dalton's 3rd a seriously successful film (as he had done with Moore's TSWLM before - when they were in a similar jam post-TMWTGG).

    Therefore, If B17 with Dalton had knocked it out of the park financially (a big if), Brosnan would not have got his shot.

    Too many unknowns though.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I think the script would have been revised before shooting. I can't ever imagine Dalton wanting to make that kind of Bond film. Let's not forget that at one stage in the writing process, Dr No was to be a monkey!

    As for what would have happened after Dalton's third film, I think he would have made one more and then left. I can't see Dalton sticking around any more than he would need to. 4 and out would be my guess.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I love both Daltons films, but the script for his 3rd sounded dodgy...and heavily influenced by the success of Terminator 2.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Perdogg wrote: »
    (to the point where EON is 'stealing' from Chris Nolan's Batman).
    EoN was influenced by Nolan sure, but I think they did the gritty reboot better.
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