How close were we to seeing Brosnan in 'Casino Royale'?

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  • Posts: 2,402
    No but Craig could still have given a great performance. He doesn't save QoS for me - I still think the movie is horrible - but he himself is brilliant despite the film's quality.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    No but Craig could still have given a great performance. He doesn't save QoS for me - I still think the movie is horrible - but he himself is brilliant despite the film's quality.

    Fair enough.
  • Posts: 6,396
    Murdock wrote:
    People make the "bad script" argument for Pierce and I don't buy it. Craig had overall one of the worst scripts, directors, and overall films in the series with QoS yet his performance is beyond brilliant.

    Could Craig save DAD?

    Not even God could save DAD! ;-)
  • Dragonpol2Dragonpol2 The Crazy World of Daniel Dragonpol
    Posts: 145
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Had Brosnan did a 5th movie? There is no way I think they would have done CR. It's the 1st assignment! The beginning, so it would have been too much of a stretch for this to have happened in my honest opinion.

    I agree with this learned poster's assessment.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote:
    People make the "bad script" argument for Pierce and I don't buy it. Craig had overall one of the worst scripts, directors, and overall films in the series with QoS yet his performance is beyond brilliant.

    Could Craig save DAD?

    Not even God could save DAD! ;-)

    Only one man could have saved DAD. With the Daltonator it would have been a classic - no doubt about it!
  • Posts: 6,396
    Getafix wrote:
    Murdock wrote:
    People make the "bad script" argument for Pierce and I don't buy it. Craig had overall one of the worst scripts, directors, and overall films in the series with QoS yet his performance is beyond brilliant.

    Could Craig save DAD?

    Not even God could save DAD! ;-)

    Only one man could have saved DAD. With the Daltonator it would have been a classic - no doubt about it!

    Give Dalts some credit. He wouldn't have touched that film with a 10ft pole! ;-)
  • Posts: 2,402
    Again my issue is that, while a great actor cannot save a horrible film, there is nothing in a horrible film that prevents said actor from turning in a brilliant performance nonetheless. Again that's where Brosnan falls on his face for me as an actor; TND and DAD are his two worst films and perhaps his two worst performances as well; it's as if he looked at the script and went "oh this is a shit film so I may as well not try." Craig knew he had a disaster on his hands with QoS but he still turned in a performance on par with that of Casino Royale.
  • Posts: 1,548
    What a horrible thought. So glad this never happened!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Again my issue is that, while a great actor cannot save a horrible film, there is nothing in a horrible film that prevents said actor from turning in a brilliant performance nonetheless. Again that's where Brosnan falls on his face for me as an actor; TND and DAD are his two worst films and perhaps his two worst performances as well; it's as if he looked at the script and went "oh this is a shit film so I may as well not try." Craig knew he had a disaster on his hands with QoS but he still turned in a performance on par with that of Casino Royale.

    Oh come on that's not very fair to Brosnan. He did the best with what he was given. EON were running a very tight ship until Craig came on board. Then they finally loosened up and Started listening to their lead actor instead of just giving him material.
  • Brosnan does just fine in Tomorrow Never Dies and Die Another Day. His performance as Bond is one of the best things in both movies, and Laurence Olivier couldn't have pulled off DAD. There's just no redeeming that atrocity.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote:
    Again my issue is that, while a great actor cannot save a horrible film, there is nothing in a horrible film that prevents said actor from turning in a brilliant performance nonetheless. Again that's where Brosnan falls on his face for me as an actor; TND and DAD are his two worst films and perhaps his two worst performances as well; it's as if he looked at the script and went "oh this is a shit film so I may as well not try." Craig knew he had a disaster on his hands with QoS but he still turned in a performance on par with that of Casino Royale.

    Oh come on that's not very fair to Brosnan. He did the best with what he was given. EON were running a very tight ship until Craig came on board. Then they finally loosened up and Started listening to their lead actor instead of just giving him material.

    Don't you think you have to ask 'why?' this happened? Not that I entirely agree any way. But if they were not listening to their lead actor then that's presumably because they didn't think much of what he was saying or thought he wasn't up to dealing with better material. But the point is that there is always the opportunity, even with a bad script, for a good actor to deliver a quality performance. Brosnan NEVER did that. Even when they gave himn some meatier scenes, as they were obviously trying to do with TWINE, he blew it. Nothing he did on screen as Bond stands the test of time. They might as well have thrown a bucket of chicken entrails in the general direction of the camera - it would have been more engaging.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    He did foul up the scene when he confronts Electra, but Brosnan's effective during the sequence when he kills her - I don't think he "blew" that at all. I also liked him during the PTS when he's in the bankers office. Didn't blow that either.
  • Posts: 11,425
    The bit in the banker's office is not too bad.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Getafix wrote:
    Don't you think you have to ask 'why?' this happened? Not that I entirely agree any way. But if they were not listening to their lead actor then that's presumably because they didn't think much of what he was saying or thought he wasn't up to dealing with better material. But the point is that there is always the opportunity, even with a bad script, for a good actor to deliver a quality performance. Brosnan NEVER did that. Even when they gave himn some meatier scenes, as they were obviously trying to do with TWINE, he blew it. Nothing he did on screen as Bond stands the test of time. They might as well have thrown a bucket of chicken entrails in the general direction of the camera - it would have been more engaging.

    Example?
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    For a long time I thought the torture scene in CR would have been too much for him...then I re-watched Seraphim Falls and realised half way through a scene when he graphically tends to a wound he received that I was wincing. I hasten to add I wasn't wincing out of embarrassment but because I felt the pain his character had...Broz seemed to be selling it well.

    Maybe he could have done it. That said I wouldn't change the scene we have for the world.
  • Can you have imagined Brosnan in the part of Bond for Casino Royale instead of the Craig debut ? Ye gods, that would of been a disaster of a scenario

    As Pierce didn't quit in '99 after his best performance, and decided to try again three years later, with poor results (when by now he was evidently too old for the part) then needless to say, another appearance four or five years thereafter would of been dragging Flemings iconic character a bit further into the mud. Regardless of 'how close' we were to seeing it, it thankfully never occured, and Craig came in and put on an outstanding performance and really, we've never looked back

  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Don't you think you have to ask 'why?' this happened? Not that I entirely agree any way. But if they were not listening to their lead actor then that's presumably because they didn't think much of what he was saying or thought he wasn't up to dealing with better material. But the point is that there is always the opportunity, even with a bad script, for a good actor to deliver a quality performance. Brosnan NEVER did that. Even when they gave himn some meatier scenes, as they were obviously trying to do with TWINE, he blew it. Nothing he did on screen as Bond stands the test of time. They might as well have thrown a bucket of chicken entrails in the general direction of the camera - it would have been more engaging.

    Example?

    To be honest, I can't really remember - I haven't seen it since the cinema - but I do remember the scenes with Elektra having potential to be more interesting than they actually were. But as others point out, QoS is hardly the best script, but there are plenty of scenes where Craig shines. All I remember the Broz for are the godawful gruntings and embarassing swaggering.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited January 2014 Posts: 16,351
    Getafix wrote:
    Murdock wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Don't you think you have to ask 'why?' this happened? Not that I entirely agree any way. But if they were not listening to their lead actor then that's presumably because they didn't think much of what he was saying or thought he wasn't up to dealing with better material. But the point is that there is always the opportunity, even with a bad script, for a good actor to deliver a quality performance. Brosnan NEVER did that. Even when they gave himn some meatier scenes, as they were obviously trying to do with TWINE, he blew it. Nothing he did on screen as Bond stands the test of time. They might as well have thrown a bucket of chicken entrails in the general direction of the camera - it would have been more engaging.

    Example?

    To be honest, I can't really remember - I haven't seen it since the cinema - but I do remember the scenes with Elektra having potential to be more interesting than they actually were. But as others point out, QoS is hardly the best script, but there are plenty of scenes where Craig shines.

    You should watch it again. I'd watch TWINE again with a clear mind. I did recently not having seen it in a good few years. I picked up on a lot. Sure some lines could be better but that doesn't make Brosnan the worst actor in the world. Like I said he did the best with what he was given. As for why EoN was so tight. Well, Cubby died in 96 so maybe MGW and Babs were afraid to take it in their direction and played it safe until they were confident enough to Break from the Cubby formula.
  • Posts: 11,425
    What I actually remember about TWINE is being really annoyed that they'd given M such a big role! I was slightly gobsmacked when SF came out and there was Craig and Dench saying - 'we're doing it differently this time and letting M get out of the office a bit'. Heck, when was she ever in her office?
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    What I actually remember about TWINE is being really annoyed that they'd given M such a big role! I was slightly gobsmacked when SF came out and there was Craig and Dench saying - 'we're doing it differently this time and letting M get out of the office a bit'. Heck, when was she ever in her office?

    In Goldeneye :p
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    What I actually remember about TWINE is being really annoyed that they'd given M such a big role! I was slightly gobsmacked when SF came out and there was Craig and Dench saying - 'we're doing it differently this time and letting M get out of the office a bit'. Heck, when was she ever in her office?

    In Goldeneye :p

    Exactly. I'm really hoping that Fiennes actually likes his office and decides to stay in it for a film or two!
  • Posts: 1,407
    Reading that "report" from MI6 again, it amazes me how "confirmed" that news was. Nobody would have been surprised to see a press release about Brosnan coming back the next day. It's amazing how internet news has changed. I'm sure MI6 was convinced their source was correct but it's still interesting to see.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 1,778
    Again my issue is that, while a great actor cannot save a horrible film, there is nothing in a horrible film that prevents said actor from turning in a brilliant performance nonetheless. Again that's where Brosnan falls on his face for me as an actor; TND and DAD are his two worst films and perhaps his two worst performances as well; it's as if he looked at the script and went "oh this is a shit film so I may as well not try." Craig knew he had a disaster on his hands with QoS but he still turned in a performance on par with that of Casino Royale.

    Well said sir. I've always felt the same way. QOS is a good example. Another is the fact that, although some might call me crazy, I still find The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen to be an entertaining and watchable movie. All due to be the fact that the legendary Sir. Connery was the star. You could film the man reading the phonebook for 90 mins and he'd still probably find a way to make it entertaining. That's a rare quality in an actor to be able to single-handedly carry a mediocre or sub-par movie. A quality Brosnan never had. As @Getafix said he's very much a TV actor as far as his talents go. Not a larger than life movie star like Sean Connery, Carey Grant, Jack Nicholson, Harrison Ford, etc.
  • Getafix wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    What I actually remember about TWINE is being really annoyed that they'd given M such a big role! I was slightly gobsmacked when SF came out and there was Craig and Dench saying - 'we're doing it differently this time and letting M get out of the office a bit'. Heck, when was she ever in her office?

    In Goldeneye :p

    Exactly. I'm really hoping that Fiennes actually likes his office and decides to stay in it for a film or two!

    She was contained in TND, mostly. She was in some kind of high-tech office thing during the PTS and in a car briefly, but she stayed well within the bounds of Bernard Lee's M. Nothing like everything between TWINE and SF.

    But it's sadly unlikely that Fiennes' M, Moneypenny, and Q will stay at the office, if Skyfall and the rumors are any indication. At this point, it would be more of a deviation to have them in the office than out of it!
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 1,778
    bondbat007 wrote:
    Reading that "report" from MI6 again, it amazes me how "confirmed" that news was. Nobody would have been surprised to see a press release about Brosnan coming back the next day. It's amazing how internet news has changed. I'm sure MI6 was convinced their source was correct but it's still interesting to see.

    Im going to have to call B.S. on the whole thing. Not only because I would've dreaded Brosnan starring Casino Royale but for 2 reasons.

    1) This report came out a mere month before Craig was officially announced as the new James Bond. When casting the star and leading man of a multi-billion dollar Hollywood cash cow franchise, an actor doesn't just walk into an audition, read a monologue, and then wait 3 weeks for an answer. Yet according to this report in September 2005 there is no clear candidate for the role and EON was ready to come crawling back to the very man they shunned and had since blasted them in interviews. And then alakazam it's October 2005 and Daniel Craig is jetting down the River Thames and EON is gung-ho on their new Bond and never looking back. I'm not a Hollywood expert but that doesn't sound right. Craig had probably been extensively screen-tested and consulted with for a period of several months. I'm almost 100% sure that by September of 2005 he was already unofficially cast as the new 007 and it was just a matter of negotiating and drawing up his multiple film contract. Which in itself can take weeks.

    2) By September 2005 the script to Casino Royale was most certainly already written. After all I'm sure the potential serious candidates for Bond would have wanted to have read the script and find out what they were getting themselves into. Craig himself said he was only interested in playing the part after reading the script. That being the case the script for the 2006 film we got very clearly required a younger 007 then we'd seen in decades. It's practicality the theme and selling point of the film. For EON to go from a thirty something year old actor debuting as a novice James Bond on his first major assignment to a 53 year old Pierce Brosnan playing an aging 007 in what would probably be Brosnan's swansong would practically require a total re-write. They wouldn't introduce Quantum if Brosnan was on his way out and probably not returning for Bond 22. The whole reboot concept would've been thrown out the window. Q and Moneypenny would probably be shoe-horned back in. Bond's entire young eager upstart characerization wouldn't be present anymore. The subplot of M not sure if she can trust Bond and if she promoted him too early wouldn't make any sense. We wouldn't be getting that parquore chase, that's for damn sure. Basically it's be a totally different film. We'd be going from a debut to a finale. I highly doubt they'd be able to make the November 2006 release date if they were starting from scratch a mere 14 months earlier.

    That being said I believe this whole story was just wishful thinking by Brosnan and his supporters.

  • Posts: 15,122
    bondbat007 wrote:
    Reading that "report" from MI6 again, it amazes me how "confirmed" that news was. Nobody would have been surprised to see a press release about Brosnan coming back the next day. It's amazing how internet news has changed. I'm sure MI6 was convinced their source was correct but it's still interesting to see.

    Im going to have to call B.S. on the whole thing. Not because I would've dreaded Brosnan starring Casino Royale but for 2 reasons.

    1) This report came out a mere month before Craig was officially announced as the new James Bond. When casting the star and leading man of a multi-billion dollar Hollywood cash cow franchise, an actor doesn't just walk into an audition, read a monologue, and then wait 3 weeks for an answer. Yet according to this report in September 2005 there is no clear candidate for the role and EON was ready to come crawling back to the very man they shunned and had since blasted them in interviews. And then alakazam it's October 2005 and Daniel Craig is jetting down the River Thames and EON is gung-ho on their new Bond and never looking back. I'm not a Hollywood expert but that doesn't sound right. Craig had probably been extensively screen-tested and consulted with for a period of several months. I'm almost 100% sure that by September of 2005 he was already unofficially cast as the new 007 and it was just a matter of negotiating and drawing up his multiple film contract. Which in itself can take weeks.

    2) By September 2005 the script to Casino Royale was most certainly already written. After all I'm sure the potential serious candidates for Bond would have wanted to have read the script and find out what they were getting themselves into. Craig himself said he was only interested in playing the part after reading the script. That being the case the script for the 2006 film we got very clearly required a younger 007 then we'd seen in decades. It's practicality the theme and selling point of the film. For EON to go from a thirty something year old actor debuting as a novice James Bond on his first major assignment to a 53 year old Pierce Brosnan playing an aging 007 in what would probably be Brosnan's swansong would practically require a total re-write. They wouldn't introduce Quantum if Brosnan was on his way out and probably not returning for Bond 22. The whole reboot concept would've been thrown out the window. Q and Moneypenny would probably be shoe-horned back in. Bond's entire young eager upstart characerization wouldn't be present anymore. The subplot of M not sure if she can trust Bond and if she promoted him too early wouldn't make any sense. We wouldn't be getting that parquore chase, that's for damn sure. Basically it's be a totally different film. We'd be going from a debut to a finale. I highly doubt they'd be able to make the November 2006 release date if they were starting from scratch a mere 14 months earlier.

    That being said I believe this whole story was just wishful thinking by Brosnan and his supporters.

    You pretty much sums it up. In the end, Brosnan wanted Brosnan, this is what it seems to me anyway.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited January 2014 Posts: 13,355
    Here is an IGN article dating from May 2005 where Craig talks about Bond and meeting Barbara and co. As early as that I feel the role was his.

    http://uk.ign.com/articles/2005/05/03/craig-vaughn-on-bond

    He was first mentioned in April 2005, from the on, he was the one they wanted.
  • Posts: 1,052
    I think this was just a rumour going around about Brozzer doing Casino Roayle with Tarantino, as a period piece as I recall, don't remember it being mentioned as an EON production.

    To be fair though the CR novel is not really like the DC film of the same name so Brosnan could have done it, as in the book Bond is already into his stride not a rookie. How it would have turned out though is anyone's guess.
  • Yeah if Brosnan was in CR it would've been a different film but it still could've worked as CR. They'd just have to tone down the action and get rid of the rookie angle.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I'm not sure I would have wanted Tarantino directing a Bond movie, but I've always liked the idea of doing Bond as a period piece and going back to the 60s. Why not in fact go back to the 50s?

    The ultimate reboot would take us back to Bond during his WW2 service.
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