How close were we to seeing Brosnan in 'Casino Royale'?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2019 Posts: 8,187
    *wrong thread!*
  • Posts: 19,339
    Interesting...I have the SE set and they are definitely ageing.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    I thought his best performance was in DAD, particularly the first half of the film. He feels in charge in a way he never quite did in the first three films.

    Agree. Die Another Day is equivocally Brosnan's best performance as Bond.

    Regarding the OP, I don't think Brosnan would've worked in Casino Royale given it's Bond's origin story. It always required someone younger who fit into the narrative of a new 00 agent learning through naivety. If you also look at the way Brosnan handled the more emotional and vulnerable scenes in The World Is Not Enough I think it's fair to say that a CR with him in it would've been a poor effort in contrast to what we got with Craig.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    I'm damn sure that Casino Royale wouldn't be my favorite Bond film if Daniel Craig didn't star as James Bond in it. He is just one of many reasons why it is my favorite. I just know it wouldn't be the great movie it is if Brosnan was in it instead. And I don't mean to put him down like that, that's just the honest truth. Dodged a bullet on that one.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    I'm damn sure that Casino Royale wouldn't be my favorite Bond film if Daniel Craig didn't star as James Bond in it. He is just one of many reasons why it is my favorite. I just know it wouldn't be the great movie it is if Brosnan was in it instead. And I don't mean to put him down like that, that's just the honest truth. Dodged a bullet on that one.

    I agree, in order to do CR justice you needed a younger Bond.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It would certainly work with an older Bond. I just think it adds an extra layer of danger when Bond is still relatively inexperienced. Plus it was an opportunity, one I wish they would take with an older Bond on the brink of retirement. Cover both ends. They sort of take this route in Skyfall atleast.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.
  • Posts: 16,167
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.

    Exactly. Seems the 2006 film has revised history thereby making it common belief that CR was Bond's first assignment.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited March 2020 Posts: 5,431
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.

    Exactly. Seems the 2006 film has revised history thereby making it common belief that CR was Bond's first assignment.

    First assignment as an double O agent! :P The point is there are people on this forum that seem to get very passionate that Brosnan couldn't do it. I'd argue that it could have been played by Brosnan quite easily.
  • Posts: 16,167
    thedove wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.

    Exactly. Seems the 2006 film has revised history thereby making it common belief that CR was Bond's first assignment.

    First assignment as an double O agent! :P The point is there are people on this forum that seem to get very passionate that Brosnan couldn't do it. I'd argue that it could have been played by Brosnan quite easily.

    I think he would have been fine as Bond in CR. He deserved a chance to star n a Fleming story at the very least. I personally would have preferred the film to not be a re-boot regardless and it wouldn't have been had Pierce starred.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,187
    Even without the Bond Begins angle, I think a 53 year old Brosnan Bond falling and being betrayed by Vesper might not work so well in the context of his run, given that he already went through that only a mere two films ago with TWINE. With a clean slate and Craig Bond being younger at 35 (the same age as in the novel) I can at least buy that iteration of Bond going through that trauma.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    Even without the Bond Begins angle, I think a 53 year old Brosnan Bond falling and being betrayed by Vesper might not work so well in the context of his run, given that he already went through that only a mere two films ago with TWINE. With a clean slate and Craig Bond being younger at 35 (the same age as in the novel) I can at least buy that iteration of Bond going through that trauma.

    Right on the money, my fellow Twin Peaks fan.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    thedove wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.

    Exactly. Seems the 2006 film has revised history thereby making it common belief that CR was Bond's first assignment.

    First assignment as an double O agent! :P The point is there are people on this forum that seem to get very passionate that Brosnan couldn't do it. I'd argue that it could have been played by Brosnan quite easily.

    Yes, in the film it is Bond s first 00 assignment, but in the book he had been one since the war.
  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    Things turned out for the best. An actor of far greater talent and depth inherited the role at just the right time. The franchise was elevated to new heights and Bond fans got their best 007 since Connery.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Things turned out for the best. An actor of far greater talent and depth inherited the role at just the right time. The franchise was elevated to new heights and Bond fans got their best 007 since Connery.

    Best thing I've read all day @DrClatterhand
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    Things turned out for the best. An actor of far greater talent and depth inherited the role at just the right time. The franchise was elevated to new heights and Bond fans got their best 007 since Connery.

    Nailed it. I completely agree with everything you just said.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    Things turned out for the best. An actor of far greater talent and depth inherited the role at just the right time. The franchise was elevated to new heights and Bond fans got their best 007 since Connery.

    The last sentence is debateable. Connery could play it straight or with tongue in cheek. I don't get the comedic timing with Craig. Connery played Bond tough in FRWL and then had fun with the character in DAF. I'd argue even Moore has had a greater range with the character. Craig's Bond is serious, tough and looks like someone not to be messed with. Could Craig handle the material in a lighter Bond film? We will never know since it's been serious for the run. However I suspect he'd have some trouble with the lighter fare.
  • Posts: 623
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.

    Exactly. Seems the 2006 film has revised history thereby making it common belief that CR was Bond's first assignment.

    I think the literary Bond was given his '00' status in December 1950, and the events of Casino Royale begin in May 1951, so it may not have been his first assignment, but it would be one of his first I suppose.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    shamanimal wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it funny that some insist that Bond be young in CR. Yet there is no hue and cry to see the other novels chopped up and used piece meal. Somehow we have to stick to the written word with regards to CR and no other book. :)

    While I agree a faithful adaption means Bond is on his first mission. But having said that I don't think it has to be his first mission to have the story make sense. I would have enjoyed seeing an older Brosnan fall for the lady and then have his heart broken when she turns. In some ways to me it's more dramatic.

    It wasn t Bond s first mission in the book. He had been going on for years.

    Exactly. Seems the 2006 film has revised history thereby making it common belief that CR was Bond's first assignment.

    I think the literary Bond was given his '00' status in December 1950, and the events of Casino Royale begin in May 1951, so it may not have been his first assignment, but it would be one of his first I suppose.

    Where do you have this from?
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 623
    I re-read CR this week, so this is kind of fresh in my mind.
    According to John Griswold's advanced chronology, chapter six of From Russia With Love references the December 1950 date, (I looked and he's right), and the dates for CR are in the 'Dossier From M' chapter in CR, (I haven't checked that).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    shamanimal wrote: »
    I re-read CR this week, so this is kind of fresh in my mind.
    According to John Griswold's advanced chronology, chapter six of From Russia With Love references the December 1950 date, (I looked and he's right), and the dates for CR are in the 'Dossier From M' chapter in CR, (I haven't checked that).

    Right, thanks.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    thedove wrote: »
    Things turned out for the best. An actor of far greater talent and depth inherited the role at just the right time. The franchise was elevated to new heights and Bond fans got their best 007 since Connery.

    The last sentence is debateable. Connery could play it straight or with tongue in cheek. I don't get the comedic timing with Craig. Connery played Bond tough in FRWL and then had fun with the character in DAF. I'd argue even Moore has had a greater range with the character. Craig's Bond is serious, tough and looks like someone not to be messed with. Could Craig handle the material in a lighter Bond film? We will never know since it's been serious for the run. However I suspect he'd have some trouble with the lighter fare.

    Have you seen Knives Out? Or the self deprecating humor from last night's SNL?

    Craig Bond is best served in how he portrays it, and I wouldn't want to see knee-slappers from him, but, to say he'd have trouble with the lighter fare doesn't seem entirely accurate.
  • Posts: 623
    I'm no expert, but when I read a Bond novel I like to look in the Griswold book to see his take on the chronology. CR is meticulously dated.
    I seem to remember a discussion on here a few years ago about when the literary Bond got his '00' status. It might be worth a search.
    Also, when Bond is talking to Mathis in CR he says "in the past few years I've killed two villains". Which leads the reader to believe that he's only killed two, (which has earned him his '00'). If he'd been a '00' for a few years, you'd expect that number to be considerably .... higher?
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    peter wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Things turned out for the best. An actor of far greater talent and depth inherited the role at just the right time. The franchise was elevated to new heights and Bond fans got their best 007 since Connery.

    The last sentence is debateable. Connery could play it straight or with tongue in cheek. I don't get the comedic timing with Craig. Connery played Bond tough in FRWL and then had fun with the character in DAF. I'd argue even Moore has had a greater range with the character. Craig's Bond is serious, tough and looks like someone not to be messed with. Could Craig handle the material in a lighter Bond film? We will never know since it's been serious for the run. However I suspect he'd have some trouble with the lighter fare.

    Have you seen Knives Out? Or the self deprecating humor from last night's SNL?

    Craig Bond is best served in how he portrays it, and I wouldn't want to see knee-slappers from him, but, to say he'd have trouble with the lighter fare doesn't seem entirely accurate.

    I think Logan Lucky and Knives Out shows that Craig has quite a talent for humour and comic timing.

    I don't think it is one of the hallmarks of his portrayal but why should be have to be wisecracking.

    Roger was the king of this and Connery did the deadpan so adeptly, although after Connery I would say Craig when given the right lines is fantastic and the deadpan delivery, not Sean level but definitely better than the others.

    Brosnan tried the Roger routine but to me he just came off smarmy, when they tried to give Craig those lines in SPECTRE it just didn't work but likes of the below, he is fantastic at.

    "yes considerably"

    "that last hand nearly killed me"

    and of course "its time to get out"

    Craig was the ideal actor for CR and he gave us the most assured and confident debut since Connery delivered those immortal lines.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    edited March 2020 Posts: 814
    I'm currently reading Anthony Horowitz's Forever and a Day which is a prequel to the CR novel. It finds Bond having just gotten his 00 status and on his first mission. Of course I know that the non-Fleming Bond novels aren't really canon but I like to think of it as so. Bond in FAAD isn't the colder, harder man he is in CR which seems to say his first mission or two has an effect on him.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    shamanimal wrote: »
    I'm no expert, but when I read a Bond novel I like to look in the Griswold book to see his take on the chronology. CR is meticulously dated.
    I seem to remember a discussion on here a few years ago about when the literary Bond got his '00' status. It might be worth a search.
    Also, when Bond is talking to Mathis in CR he says "in the past few years I've killed two villains". Which leads the reader to believe that he's only killed two, (which has earned him his '00'). If he'd been a '00' for a few years, you'd expect that number to be considerably .... higher?

    Not really. In the books, the 00 prefix did not mean a licence to kill. It was a code given to agents who had killed in the line of duty. Bond had joined the service in 1938 according to Fleming, but the 00 status came much later.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,187
    shamanimal wrote: »
    I'm no expert, but when I read a Bond novel I like to look in the Griswold book to see his take on the chronology. CR is meticulously dated.
    I seem to remember a discussion on here a few years ago about when the literary Bond got his '00' status. It might be worth a search.
    Also, when Bond is talking to Mathis in CR he says "in the past few years I've killed two villains". Which leads the reader to believe that he's only killed two, (which has earned him his '00'). If he'd been a '00' for a few years, you'd expect that number to be considerably .... higher?

    Not really. In the books, the 00 prefix did not mean a licence to kill. It was a code given to agents who had killed in the line of duty. Bond had joined the service in 1938 according to Fleming, but the 00 status came much later.

    The Goldfinger novel puts it like this:
    As a secret agent who held the rare double-O prefix - the licence to kill in the Secret Service - it was his duty to be as cool about death as a surgeon.
  • edited March 2020 Posts: 623
    In the books, the 00 prefix did not mean a licence to kill.

    It did. In chapter six of FRWL it says 'The double 0 numerals signify an agent who has killed and who is privileged to kill on active service'.
    And chapter two of Dr No tells us The licence to kill for the secret service, the double-0 prefix, was a great honour..
    Then there's the Goldfinger reference MakeshiftPython mentions. There are others too.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Yes, you are both right of course. But in other books( CR,MR) it is another story. Fleming was inconsistent.
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