Hashima 'Ghost' Island and the death of Severene.

barryt007

This abandoned island in Japan was the inspiration for the ruined island lair of Silva,although it was not used in the film :





A good bio on it can be found here on WIKI :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashima_Island

How do you feel about the death of Severene ? Should her character have been developed more ?

Do you think the death was cleverly executed (pardon the pun !) and used the fact well that Bond was at the end of his physical tether,in the shooting contest ?

Thunderfinger

I hated the quip Bond threw after her death. It was unnecessary and not funny. Take away that and it is a very good shot (pardon the pun) scene.

Perilagu_Khan

Would I like to have seen more of Severine? Absolutely. With more screen time she probably would be my all-time favorite Bond girl.

But was the Hashima/death sequence good? Dam' straight. The more I see it, the more I love it. With Charles Trenet's Boum playing in the background, it was a masterstroke. Also reminded me of Caparzo's death sequence in Saving Private Ryan.

talos7

Birdleson wrote:

Thunderfinger wrote:

I hated the quip Bond threw after her death. It was unnecessary and not funny. Take away that and it is a very good shot (pardon the pun) scene.

I agree completely.

I also agree; I'm not a fan of the quip. An explanation could be, Silva had already tried to unnerve Bond; this was another attempt. Bonds apparent indifference, with the throw away line, was just his way of showing that he was unfazed, even if he was.

Siberia

It wasn't a quip. It wasn't supposed to be funny (gosh, who would even think it was intended to be?). It was meant to demonstrate Bond's desire to shut himself off from what had just happened, and his clear failure to do so. Nothing more or less.

It's unfortunate how many people misinterpret the line (or conversely, try to defend it on utilitarian grounds). The reason it comes across so badly to many fans is that it's a vicious play on a franchise cliché. It's not "they're on their way to a funeral", but its complete inverse - the breakdown of a coping strategy. If you've spent years soaking in the Bond formula, it can be hard to see that.

If it made you uncomfortable, good, that was the point. Complaining about the "waste of scotch" is like complaining about Bond not making love to Tracy's limp body at the end of OHMSS. Neither were intended as conventions; rather, they demolished conventions to display James Bond as an ordinary man.

LegateDamar

Siberia wrote:

It wasn't a quip. It wasn't supposed to be funny (gosh, who would even think it was intended to be?). It was meant to demonstrate Bond's desire to shut himself off from what had just happened, and his clear failure to do so. Nothing more or less.

It's unfortunate how many people misinterpret the line (or conversely, try to defend it on utilitarian grounds). The reason it comes across so badly to many fans is that it's a vicious play on a franchise cliché. It's not "they're on their way to a funeral", but its complete inverse - the breakdown of a coping strategy. If you've spent years soaking in the Bond formula, it can be hard to see that.

If it made you uncomfortable, good, that was the point. Complaining about the "waste of scotch" is like complaining about Bond not making love to Tracy's limp body at the end of OHMSS. Neither were intended as conventions; rather, they demolished conventions to display James Bond as an ordinary man.

Interesting thoughts. I had issues with the scene until some users pointed out that Bond was upset and unsure how to express himself. I've re-watched the scene and accept that now. Craig's response is very subtle and it's easy to miss.

Baltimore_007

I didn't care too much with Craig's almost flippant outlook after the killing of the Severine character, but then I didn't care much for the Marlohe character with it. I don't think humor works with Craig's Bond, but the "a waste of good whiskey" did generate one or two smirks with theater audiences. The background music from French musician Trenet, while a fun and mesmerizing theme, would of been suited for another scenario in that years release also. Just don't think it fits in well with what was presented

Perhaps the biggest complaint would seem to be that the Silva lair could of been utilized more than just a few minutes in the movie. Less time in London maybe and more spent on the island than just the 'target practice' scenes. Wish they could of provided a little more. Some would argue it would of been a more fitting location for an end battle with Silva and his men than the finale in Scotland I.E. make some 'Home Alone' style ideas and a whole lot of bangs and explosions, but that's the decision they undertook

LegateDamar

That song "Boum !" is mesmerizing and sort of bizarre. It was sort of oddly placed in that scene but I felt it worked.

barryt007

Siberia wrote:

It wasn't a quip. It wasn't supposed to be funny (gosh, who would even think it was intended to be?). It was meant to demonstrate Bond's desire to shut himself off from what had just happened, and his clear failure to do so. Nothing more or less.

It's unfortunate how many people misinterpret the line (or conversely, try to defend it on utilitarian grounds). The reason it comes across so badly to many fans is that it's a vicious play on a franchise cliché. It's not "they're on their way to a funeral", but its complete inverse - the breakdown of a coping strategy. If you've spent years soaking in the Bond formula, it can be hard to see that.

If it made you uncomfortable, good, that was the point. Complaining about the "waste of scotch" is like complaining about Bond not making love to Tracy's limp body at the end of OHMSS. Neither were intended as conventions; rather, they demolished conventions to display James Bond as an ordinary man.

That's how i see it as well,but with so many quips in the Moore/Brosnan eras,it's not surprising people see it as a 'throw-away' quip rather than an emotionally and physically wrecked Bond trying to hold it together - before he snaps of course and wipes out Silva's men,reverting to the Bond we know.

BAIN123

My only issue with Severine's death is that she's never mentioned again - not even in passing - after her last scene. Seems a bit of a shame to me considering her strong set up.

RogueAgent

barryt007 wrote:

This abandoned island in Japan was the inspiration for the ruined island lair of Silva,although it was not used in the film :





A good bio on it can be found here on WIKI :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashima_Island

How do you feel about the death of Severene ? Should her character have been developed more ?

Do you think the death was cleverly executed (pardon the pun !) and used the fact well that Bond was at the end of his physical tether,in the shooting contest ?

Even though I have seen this place a number of times? It still takes my breath away in wonderment!

RC7

Gutted they didn't use it for real. That said, they did an admirable job of conveying the atmosphere.

DoggieGalore

It seems like they want to do something new with the Bond girls....how about actually having all of them survive the movie for once?

Revelator

Baltimore_007 wrote:

the Silva lair could of been utilized more than just a few minutes in the movie. Less time in London maybe and more spent on the island than just the 'target practice' scenes. Wish they could of provided a little more.

Agreed--an abandoned island is a terrific setting, full of material for ingenious bits of action. It was definitely under-utilized.

DoggieGalore wrote:

It seems like they want to do something new with the Bond girls....how about actually having all of them survive the movie for once?

Amen! I'm getting very tired of the sacrificial-bedmate cliche. The books managed to avoid it for the most part, but the films picked up the bad habit with Goldfinger and have run the trope into the ground.

Regarding the debate on the "waste of" line--the fact that folks still can't agree on its interpretation suggests a fault on either Craig's part (though he's excellent in the rest of the film) or Mendes (who either didn't give clear direction or didn't go for a better take). Ambiguity can occasionally benefit a Bond film, but here its suggest that Bond is either shaken or callous--the latter is to be avoided.

Suivez_ce_parachute

LegateDamar wrote:

That song "Boum !" is mesmerizing and sort of bizarre. It was sort of oddly placed in that scene but I felt it worked.

To a French ear it has such a strong identity it feels a bit detached IMO.

OHMSS69

DoggieGalore wrote:

It seems like they want to do something new with the Bond girls....how about actually having all of them survive the movie for once?

I think LTK was the last time (and one of the few times, OP comes to mind) when both of Bond's bedmates survive. The morbid practice began with GF and has gone full bore with Brosnan's and Craig's films. (especially Craig's)

dramaticscenesofQOS

Thunderfinger wrote:

I hated the quip Bond threw after her death. It was unnecessary and not funny. Take away that and it is a very good shot (pardon the pun) scene.

It was an unnatural attempt, much like the forced humor, by Craig to appear as though he is Connery or Moore instead of leading the way as his own Bond like in CR or QoS. Just stupid.

ggl007

OHMSS69 wrote:

DoggieGalore wrote:

It seems like they want to do something new with the Bond girls....how about actually having all of them survive the movie for once?

I think LTK was the last time (and one of the few times, OP comes to mind) when both of Bond's bedmates survive. The morbid practice began with GF and has gone full bore with Brosnan's and Craig's films. (especially Craig's)

But Della was brutally murdered...

Just think, in how many Bond films a woman does NOT die?? (Answer: two!)

barryt007

Which 2 films do you mean ?

MayDayDiVicenzo

DN- MARY TRUEBLOOD
FRWL- ROSA KLEBB
GF- JILL AND TILLY MASTERSON
TB- PAULA CAPLAN
YOLT- HELGA BRANDT
OHMSS- TRACY
DAF- PLENTY O'TOOLE
LALD- ROSIE CARVER
TMWTGG- ANDREA ANDERS
TSWLM- NAOMI
MR- CORINNE DUFOUR
FYEO- IONA HAVELOCK
OP- No female death
AVTAK- MAYDAY
TLD- No female death
LTK- DELLA LEITER
GE- XENIA ONATOPP
TND- PARIS CARVER
TWINE- ELEKTRA KING
DAD- MIRANDA FROST
CR- VESPER
QOS- FIELDS
SF- SEVERINE

ggl007

^^ Those two films... ;)

Thanks, @MayDayDiVicenzo

Tokoloshe

I always interpret that line as Bond attempting to distract or 'throw' the goons before he very suddenly attacks them. He's trying to make them think "huh?" so that they don't anticipate what's coming.

Ludovico

I love the whole sequence. I wonder if Severine should not have stayed alive longer, but I think her short time gave a stronger impact to her character.

DoggieGalore

ggl007 wrote:

OHMSS69 wrote:

DoggieGalore wrote:

It seems like they want to do something new with the Bond girls....how about actually having all of them survive the movie for once?

I think LTK was the last time (and one of the few times, OP comes to mind) when both of Bond's bedmates survive. The morbid practice began with GF and has gone full bore with Brosnan's and Craig's films. (especially Craig's)

But Della was brutally murdered...

Just think, in how many Bond films a woman does NOT die?? (Answer: two!)

I wouldn't actually count Della as being a "Bond girl" per se.

Still ever since after Goldfinger, you can be sure that the second billed actress' character was going to be bumped off, to the point where I was expecting Bibi, Magda and Lupe to die...but luckily they didn't.

Perilagu_Khan

Tokoloshe wrote:

I always interpret that line as Bond attempting to distract or 'throw' the goons before he very suddenly attacks them. He's trying to make them think "huh?" so that they don't anticipate what's coming.

Yes, that's certainly a part of it.

DoggieGalore

dramaticscenesofQOS wrote:

Thunderfinger wrote:

I hated the quip Bond threw after her death. It was unnecessary and not funny. Take away that and it is a very good shot (pardon the pun) scene.

It was an unnatural attempt, much like the forced humor, by Craig to appear as though he is Connery or Moore instead of leading the way as his own Bond like in CR or QoS. Just stupid.

I would say under such circumstances, people often say things that are the opposite of how they feel.

Seven_Point_Six_Five

Baltimore_007 wrote:

I didn't care too much with Craig's almost flippant outlook after the killing of the Severine character...

To me, Bond's "waste of good scotch" remark was likening Severine to a fine 50 yr old scotch. Killing her was a waste of an exceptional woman.

boldfinger

barryt007 wrote:

Do you think the death was cleverly executed (pardon the pun !) and used the fact well that Bond was at the end of his physical tether,in the shooting contest ?

I don´t see much physical problems with Bond, and even psychologically his reactions to Silva´s seduction attempts a little earlier are remarkable for a supposed wreck. Let alone the swiftness and accuracy with which Bond takes out Silva´s men.
Bond committed himself to killing people based to a considerable extent on M´s trust in him. When M shows gross misjudgement of Bond at the beginning of the film, she takes away one of (if not the) Bond´s main motivations for killing people, confronting him at once with the cruelty inherent in the act, which is only bearable with a thorough motivation. He can be a very effective killer - but cold-hearted he´s not at all. That´s why especially with the gun Bond shows insecurity. The moment he realises how cold-heartedly Silva kills people, especially the gorgeous Severine, he snaps out of his motivational coma and goes back to normal.

Ludovico

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

Tokoloshe wrote:

I always interpret that line as Bond attempting to distract or 'throw' the goons before he very suddenly attacks them. He's trying to make them think "huh?" so that they don't anticipate what's coming.

Yes, that's certainly a part of it.

And Bond also had to keep his cool. Had he said something like: "Oh you despicable sadistic monster!" he would have let Silva know he got under his skin and the emotional outburst would have prevented him to keep focused.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

boldfinger wrote:

barryt007 wrote:

Do you think the death was cleverly executed (pardon the pun !) and used the fact well that Bond was at the end of his physical tether,in the shooting contest ?

I don´t see much physical problems with Bond, and even psychologically his reactions to Silva´s seduction attempts a little earlier are remarkable for a supposed wreck. Let alone the swiftness and accuracy with which Bond takes out Silva´s men.
Bond committed himself to killing people based to a considerable extent on M´s trust in him. When M shows gross misjudgement of Bond at the beginning of the film, she takes away one of (if not the) Bond´s main motivations for killing people, confronting him at once with the cruelty inherent in the act, which is only bearable with a thorough motivation. He can be a very effective killer - but cold-hearted he´s not at all. That´s why especially with the gun Bond shows insecurity. The moment he realises how cold-heartedly Silva kills people, especially the gorgeous Severine, he snaps out of his motivational coma and goes back to normal.

I think Bond was fine. The shrapnel was out of his shoulder so his aim wasn't affected, he just shook a bit because the guns were very unpredictable at that range and he didn't want to blast Severine's head clean off. I don't really think M's trust/belief in him comes into it. He obviously respects her in his own indirect way, but just because she doesn't approve of his actions doesn't mean he is useless as a man on a mission once that support is lost. He had basically gone "rogue" in the last film and didn't rely on her, her orders or the agency as a whole to get the job done. He got Greene, Medrano and the general all on his own, without MI6 backup, and killed as was necessary regardless of what she thought of it. He knew the right call, and wanted to help Camille get Medrano on his terms.

DoggieGalore

Speaking of Severine, there appeared to be a deleted scene with her in it, as I saw this pic of her walking through this huge cavernous lobby with her body guards walking a distance behind her.