It Seems There Are More QoS Appreciators Than Thought Before

1222325272864

Comments

  • BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    Such care for the novels and collaborative relationships make all the difference for the fans and non-fans.
  • BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    True.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    Which brings us back to the quality of p&w... Not that I'd claim it's easy to find good scriptwriters, just that I think their work is too much hit and miss for Bond.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    Which brings us back to the quality of p&w... Not that I'd claim it's easy to find good scriptwriters, just that I think their work is too much hit and miss for Bond.

    In all honesty, their track record isn’t really better or worse than Maibaum’s (who had the IMMENSE benefit of working off actual Fleming novels).
  • BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    Which brings us back to the quality of p&w... Not that I'd claim it's easy to find good scriptwriters, just that I think their work is too much hit and miss for Bond.

    Let's start with their work in 007 films

    TWINE: The story sought a character depth lacking in TND but ended up a cliche of one man who saves the world. It gets so silly with character becoming parodies or imitations of a PhD NUUUUclear scientist whose only 24ish at the time and also a Blofeld wannabe. The final fight scene gets so silly that even the music gets this over the top vibe to it.


    DAD.....don't get me started


    CR thru NTTD.....each of these movies is better than anything PB could get. He wished he could have had similar films much like how Connery wished he could have done OHMSS.


    Maybe it's the directors, studio interferences, and lack of Bond actors who care but are also diplomatic enough to make an effort and help enhance the quality of each movie. PB looked bored in TND perhaps putting off the effort and ability to work on various production aspects... like maybe he could have better input on the next one. Thomas Crown Affair and other tempting roles took a lot of time from his schedule. DC didn't act in as many films at the same time outside of 007 during his tenure.
  • Posts: 1,394
    BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    Which brings us back to the quality of p&w... Not that I'd claim it's easy to find good scriptwriters, just that I think their work is too much hit and miss for Bond.

    Let's start with their work in 007 films

    TWINE: The story sought a character depth lacking in TND but ended up a cliche of one man who saves the world. It gets so silly with character becoming parodies or imitations of a PhD NUUUUclear scientist whose only 24ish at the time and also a Blofeld wannabe. The final fight scene gets so silly that even the music gets this over the top vibe to it.


    DAD.....don't get me started


    CR thru NTTD.....each of these movies is better than anything PB could get. He wished he could have had similar films much like how Connery wished he could have done OHMSS.


    Maybe it's the directors, studio interferences, and lack of Bond actors who care but are also diplomatic enough to make an effort and help enhance the quality of each movie. PB looked bored in TND perhaps putting off the effort and ability to work on various production aspects... like maybe he could have better input on the next one. Thomas Crown Affair and other tempting roles took a lot of time from his schedule. DC didn't act in as many films at the same time outside of 007 during his tenure.

    I disagree that PB looked bored in TND.Whatever was going on behind the scenes there was sense that he was having fun playing Bond.He looked a lot more comfortable in the role than he did in GE.His performance got better and better with each film.
  • edited February 2022 Posts: 2,266
    CR thru NTTD.....each of these movies is better than anything PB could get.

    QOS and SP prove otherwise. DAD was awful, but at least it’s fun and stupid movie, whereas QOS and SP are just boring movies in the end, and that’s the biggest sin of any James Bond film. Love Craig, but don’t start putting down Brosnan just to prop him up. They’re both great.
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I disagree that PB looked bored in TND.Whatever was going on behind the scenes there was sense that he was having fun playing Bond.He looked a lot more comfortable in the role than he did in GE.His performance got better and better with each film.

    Agreed, Brosnan got better and better as his films went on, even if the scripts weren’t all that great. Though I’ll always defend putting both TND and TWINE in my top 10 ;)
  • Posts: 1,917

    TWINE: The story sought a character depth lacking in TND but ended up a cliche of one man who saves the world. It gets so silly with character becoming parodies or imitations of a PhD NUUUUclear scientist whose only 24ish at the time and also a Blofeld wannabe. The final fight scene gets so silly that even the music gets this over the top vibe to it.

    TWINE is the perfect example of good intentions gone horribly wrong to adhere to the formula and an example of half-@$$ing it, something the Craig era for the most part corrected. I don't blame P&W for all the decisions, the blame can be equally distributed.

    Let's try something different with Bond getting injured and then forget about it halfway through. Bond has to win, you know. And let's give him emotion by tracing tears on a computer screen and get totally duped by the woman he's protecting.

    Let's create an interesting female villain but we can't just let Bond have one girl. He's got to have a girl in the end. Great idea, who's the latest Hollywood hottie who is years younger than the leading man and starred in mostly trashy thrillers, you know, kind of like Tanya Roberts and make her character one with a totally unbelievable profession.

    Let's get the actor who played one of the most frightening characters in recent years in Trainspotting and make him invulnerable, he can hold hot rocks and punch a table to show this, but we need character so let's give him feelings and in love with the leading lady to up his drive against Bond.

    Snow action scenes are great in Bond films. Let's get vehicles we've never seen and Bond can ski around timed explosions and make quips when he does.

    Zukovsky was great in GE. Let's bring him make him into a comedy character, but also prove he's a good guy and make him a sacrificial lamb who is a great shot.

    And on and on.



  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, Purvis and Wade's involvement in QOS seems to have been over once Forster was hired. P & W wrote the original QOS script, but once Forster came on board he had Haggis revise it - and then scrapped it and got Haggis to start again by himself.
    There's various versions of what was in the P & W QOS script, not sure how accurate all the claims are. Some similarities to what we eventually got: Mr. White was brought for interrogation in the boot of a car and escaped, but P & W had Bond deliberately engineering the escape so that he could track White going back to Quantum. They had Mr. White going to the Palio in Sienna, but in the P & W script he was then killed by his own side (sounds familiar). They had flashbacks showing how Vesper became tangled up with Quantum (possibly the interrogation tape) and had Bond seeing her in nightmares and thinking he saw her in the street. Eva Green said that Barbara Broccoli told her everything that they had planned for her in QOS, but the plans changed when Forster was hired as he particularly hated the idea of flashbacks.
    In other parts of the P & W script, Bond killed a Quantum assassin in a rope fight (as with Mitchell) and then pretended to take on the assassin's mission to kill a woman (as with Slate and Camille), but he used it to infiltrate Quantum itself. This led to Bond finding Yusef and he then spent a 'prolonged' time torturing him in revenge for Vesper. There was also a shootout at an opera - but it was at the climax of the film and it ended with Bond as a silhouette against the eye on the stage set. 'The man who was only a silhouette', etc.
    I hate to be fair to them, but with all this, I can see why P & W's names are still on the credits, even though they seem to have been off the project at an early date.

    Forster was right to ditch the flashbacks. They're not necessary. Killing off Mr. White would also have been a bad idea. There was an obsession with haphazardly bumping off important characters during the Craig era. It's very strange, especially given that it's a strict continuity that would benefit from keeping characters alive for successive films. Honestly what we got sounds better to me, though I do like the idea of Bond's silhouette against the eye.

    yep, I agree. The P&W story seems too thin for me. Too many unconvincing proposals. The sihouette thing is cool though.
    I understand it's important to have writers that understand/know Fleming, but that should not outweigh their writing qualities. And writing a proper spy story is not easy at all.

    Remember, ever since DAD was made, people had to be reminded that 007 is a spy and that character-driven stories are what viewers find interesting.

    Fleming being adapted to film more closely has often proven for a better movie outcome. OHMSS and CR were closely tied to their title books...other films only took inspiration or intershared scenes away from one another (like how FYEO took the LALD boat-dragging scene).

    The DC era had a lot of job security for the films because they had Ian Fleming's novel for CR, they had a lead actor who cared about many aspects of the production and wasn't simply there to collect a paycheck only. He focused on putting his best foot forward. And he never got too comfortable in simply showing up to filming.

    Save for Lazenby, you could say the other actors were interested in the films and the production, albeit to lesser degrees than Craig, but still influential. Connery worked with Terence Young to set the Bond style and criticized the GF script, calling the moment Oddjob crushed the golf ball as stupid. But Cubby and Harry didn't really want to give him any more, just preferring him to show up, say his lines and go through the motions.

    Moore always said all he tried to inject into Bond is humor and Richard Maibaum said they worked the scripts to his strengths. But he also complained about Bond kicking Loque's car over the cliff in FYEO as something he just doesn't do. Obviously, they worked to make Dalton's films work to his desire to play it closer to what Fleming had in mind, always talking about the books. And Brosnan often said he wasn't satisfied with the quality of scripts he got and longed to do more of the style Craig's films did.

    Which brings us back to the quality of p&w... Not that I'd claim it's easy to find good scriptwriters, just that I think their work is too much hit and miss for Bond.

    Let's start with their work in 007 films

    TWINE: The story sought a character depth lacking in TND but ended up a cliche of one man who saves the world. It gets so silly with character becoming parodies or imitations of a PhD NUUUUclear scientist whose only 24ish at the time and also a Blofeld wannabe. The final fight scene gets so silly that even the music gets this over the top vibe to it.


    DAD.....don't get me started


    CR thru NTTD.....each of these movies is better than anything PB could get. He wished he could have had similar films much like how Connery wished he could have done OHMSS.


    Maybe it's the directors, studio interferences, and lack of Bond actors who care but are also diplomatic enough to make an effort and help enhance the quality of each movie. PB looked bored in TND perhaps putting off the effort and ability to work on various production aspects... like maybe he could have better input on the next one. Thomas Crown Affair and other tempting roles took a lot of time from his schedule. DC didn't act in as many films at the same time outside of 007 during his tenure.

    I disagree that PB looked bored in TND.Whatever was going on behind the scenes there was sense that he was having fun playing Bond.He looked a lot more comfortable in the role than he did in GE.His performance got better and better with each film.

    Not so sure. There's an interview I recall with him wearing a leather jacket and he looked checked out.

    His performance in TWINE is terrible, but I put the blame on the director for having his actors overact.

    DAD truly is his best performance and the kind I wish we saw from the start. There's a real take-no-prisoners quality to his performance. If he had been given a fifth film, another performance like that would have been a great welcome.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Pierce is pretty damn good in TND, I think. A very cool performance. It's just a shame the Moore-isms were crammed in at such inappropriate points.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Pierce is pretty damn good in TND, I think. A very cool performance. It's just a shame the Moore-isms were crammed in at such inappropriate points.

    I think it’s okay for TND, depending on the time they were going for and that film was pretty light.

    It’s in TWINE where it got inappropriate. The filmmakers should have had it fit more tonally with OHMSS, but instead tried to be both that and Roger Moore film at the same time. That really should have been Brosnan’s SKYFALL.
  • Pierce is pretty damn good in TND, I think. A very cool performance. It's just a shame the Moore-isms were crammed in at such inappropriate points.

    I think it’s okay for TND, depending on the time they were going for and that film was pretty light.

    It’s in TWINE where it got inappropriate. The filmmakers should have had it fit more tonally with OHMSS, but instead tried to be both that and Roger Moore film at the same time. That really should have been Brosnan’s SKYFALL.

    I agree, but I always consider TWINE a dry run in that kind of experimentation they would go for in Craig’s tenure. That’s kind of why I like the movie. It’s dares to be something more even if doesn’t succeed.
  • edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    As with all three later Brosnan films, they didn't go all the way with it. What the Hell good was Renard's inability to feel pain or strain? It didn't come into play in any significant way. If Elektra had been the sole Bond girl her whole death would have had far more import. But we get the addition of Richards to guarantee that we get the obligatory sophomoric innuendo laden-Bond ending.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    What the Hell good was Renard's inability to feel pain or strain? It didn't come into play in any significant way. If Elektra had been the sole Bond girl her whole death would have had far more import. But we get the addition of Richards to guarantee that we get the obligatory sophomoric innuendo laden-Bond ending.
    Yes, I instantly liked GE, and I instantly loved TND.... TWINE took some time, and DAD, well, it is what it is. ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited February 2022 Posts: 8,183
    I used to be more positive on TWINE, way early when I started getting into the films. But the more Bond films I saw, like OHMSS, the lesser I felt about TWINE.
  • Posts: 2,161
    I enjoyed TWINE at the time. Having skipped TND in the theatre, it was the first time that I fully accepted Brosnan as the same Bond that I have grown up with. I just thought the goofiness had become so obligatory (as in the Roger years) that it had to be accepted. It could have been much more if they had mustered a bit go the courage that they exhibited seven years on.
  • I used to be more positive on TWINE, way early when I started getting into the films. But the more Bond films I saw, like OHMSS, the lesser I felt about TWINE.

    Did you listen to the tone of the musical score of TWINE in the last half? And the cinematography style...it didn't take itself seriously. Plus, unlike QoS, where Bond had reason to visit various locations while out to find Quantum and being on the run all the time....what the hell was he doing out in the desert with a Z8 from here to another location every 5 minutes?

    The crew and filmmakers all just gave up and threw their arms up to wrap up shooting.

    In QoS, the cast and crew did not want filming to end. It got to a point where the last half became less "messy" and even the editing became more calm/collected. The crew found ways to help increase whatever visual quality touches they could make to help make the most of short available amount of time. The crew added the snow to the Kazan scene. The tone of filming on the set in that scene carried an air of melancholy and a serious tone in everybody's mood. The idea was that Bond has realized he lives in a cold world with M being his sense of family. They were surrounded by coldness but they had one another to rely upon.
  • edited February 2022 Posts: 2,161
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    What the Hell good was Renard's inability to feel pain or strain? It didn't come into play in any significant way. If Elektra had been the sole Bond girl her whole death would have had far more import. But we get the addition of Richards to guarantee that we get the obligatory sophomoric innuendo laden-Bond ending.
    Yes, I instantly liked GE, and I instantly loved TND.... TWINE took some time, and DAD, well, it is what it is. ;)

    My problem with TND is that, after a near excellent first half, in the second half they seemed to have forgotten that Carver's greatest power is his ability to manipulate the media and world events. EON chickened out again and gave us another shoot 'em up, countdown to explosion finale. This really should have come down to a serious battle of wits (which need not be to the exclusion of action).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    What the Hell good was Renard's inability to feel pain or strain? It didn't come into play in any significant way. If Elektra had been the sole Bond girl her whole death would have had far more import. But we get the addition of Richards to guarantee that we get the obligatory sophomoric innuendo laden-Bond ending.
    Yes, I instantly liked GE, and I instantly loved TND.... TWINE took some time, and DAD, well, it is what it is. ;)

    My problem with TND is that, after a near excellent first half, in the second half they seemed to have forgotten that Carver's greatest power is his ability to manipulate the media and world events. EON chickened out again and gave us another shoot 'em up, countdown to explosion finale. This really should have come down to a serious battle of wits (which need not mean an exclusion of action).

    Well yeah, it could have been better... but name a Bond movie or two (or three) that's perfect.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Birdleson wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    What the Hell good was Renard's inability to feel pain or strain? It didn't come into play in any significant way. If Elektra had been the sole Bond girl her whole death would have had far more import. But we get the addition of Richards to guarantee that we get the obligatory sophomoric innuendo laden-Bond ending.
    Yes, I instantly liked GE, and I instantly loved TND.... TWINE took some time, and DAD, well, it is what it is. ;)

    My problem with TND is that, after a near excellent first half, in the second half they seemed to have forgotten that Carver's greatest power is his ability to manipulate the media and world events. EON chickened out again and gave us another shoot 'em up, countdown to explosion finale. This really should have come down to a serious battle of wits (which need not be to the exclusion of action).

    It would have been nice if Carver had not been present during the finale. It actually doesn't make much practical sense for him to be there. Then, we could have had a smaller scale showdown between him and Bond, ala Whittaker in TLD. Although, whether that would have worked with the kind of performance Pryce was giving, I'm not sure.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    edited February 2022 Posts: 541
    only diehard quantum fans know who tf Edmund Slate is. literally no one else does.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,152
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    only diehard quantum fans know who tf Edmund Slate is. literally no one else does.
    True. Such an injustice, though - that's a great fight scene. The equal of those in CR and better than those in any of the later films by quite some distance, including the train fight with Hinx. IMO, obvs. Stabbing Slate in an artery and then calmly holding him down til he bled out? Cold, man. The Bond that fought Slate would've slapped Patrice straight off the top of that train before Moneypenny could get a shot off. Probably.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 541
    QOS: shows edmund slate for only a few minutes of airtime. only mentions his name once or twice. makes the editing so choppy that people cant see whats going on

    also QOS: why does nobody know who edmund slate is???
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I have a lot of issues with the editing style QOS did poorly, but the actual fight with Slate is not too bad. However, the way it’s set up with the audio/visual editing overload in the computer room, as well as the aftermath with Camille picking up Bond, is so rushed that there’s no time to take anything in.

    I just remember feeling dizzy on my first viewing that by the time Bond was rescuing Camille only to hand her off to a complete stranger (who could have been another SPECTRE agent for all he knew) I felt completely lost. It’s easier to know what’s going on in later viewings, but that first viewing was not a good impression.

    I’m so glad EON never took that approach for future films, and was relieved of Sam Mendes bringing back the languid pace that made CR a more pleasant cinematic experience where we can take in the atmosphere of scenes.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Y'know, I never did and still don't understand what's hard to grasp either about what's happening in any particular scene or with the plot of QOS. These criticisms are so common, though, so lots of people clearly do struggle with it and it pretty much spoils the whole film for them. And 'that's not goood...'
    Obviously, I love QOS as it is, but that's not to say that some longer scenic and atmospheric shots or longer scenes (eg. Bond and Mathis on the plane) that let things breathe a bit wouldn't have been welcome - they definitely would. But that's because the inclusion of that stuff would've meant that there'd just be even more QOS to love! ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    It’s my dream to obtain the raw footage and do a complete new edit, along with a brand new score by Thomas Newman.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,152
    I'd love to see a QOS Redux. I'm up for that, 100%.
  • Venutius wrote: »
    I'd love to see a QOS Redux. I'm up for that, 100%.

    You're onto something!
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited February 2022 Posts: 1,032
    Longer, atmospheric shots and “breathing room” are the only things keeping QOS out of my top 5. For now, it sits proudly at #7.

    Extended cut would be incredible, if such footage exists.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Longer, atmospheric shots and “breathing room” are the only things keeping QOS out of my top 5. For now, it sits proudly at #7.

    Extended cut would be incredible, if such footage exists.

    Oh, it exists. In someone's garage if not in the studio vaults...
Sign In or Register to comment.