Is Skyfall losing its gloss and appeal ?

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  • Posts: 11,425
    Ditto
  • Posts: 908
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,189
    @Getafix. Its not a film-ruining issue for me. Just something I noticed when I last re-watched it, and something that makes me understand why it might leave a sour taste in some people's mouths. IMO there's still a lot of good/great things about SF.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    @Getafix. Its not a film-ruining issue for me. Just something I noticed when I last re-watched it, and something that makes me understand why it might leave a sour taste in some people's mouths. IMO there's still a lot of good/great things about SF.

    I've never claimed the film lacked redeaming features. I'd still rather watch DC in anything over a Bond movie with the Broz. I did actually feel SF deserved a rewatch, which is more than I felt for TWINE or DAD. It's just that the film is riddled with wrong notes and frankly inexplicable character motivations/actions, that for me at least, make it a much lesser film than some others have claimed.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!

    I don't have such an issue with him making the link between Patrice and Silva, although the idea that this was all part of some plan that Silva had created to draw Bond in is utterly ridiculous.

    But yes, I do have an issue with the way Bond just turns up on the boat, standing on the deck with apparently no plan or idea of what he's there to do. It feels like Mendes prioritised a nice shot of Bond and Severine on the deck over narrative.

    As no one knows Bond is on board until he prances out onto the deck, why not stay hidden and sneak onto the island unseen? He can still get caught, but at least Bond doesn't look like a total amateur/idiot.

  • Posts: 11,189
    Perhaps we are looking into this a little too much. There was always a possibility a character like Severine would die and it wouldn't be practical for Bond to be too mournful of her death throughout the film. The world Bond lives in is a nasty one, and we the audience, should accept that.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perhaps we are looking into this a little too much. There was always a possibility a character like Severine would die and it wouldn't be practical for Bond to be too mournful of her death throughout the film. The world Bond lives in is a nasty one, and we the audience, should accept that.

    Indeed, some people seem to miss the fact that Bond's is violent world where tender emotions cannot always be shown in order to get on with the mission or job at hand. Look at CR novel and GF opening for Fleming authority for this stance in SF.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perhaps we are looking into this a little too much. There was always a possibility a character like Severine would die and it wouldn't be practical for Bond to be too mournful of her death throughout the film. The world Bond lives in is a nasty one, and we the audience, should accept that.

    I agree. It's just that for me (and a few others) there are so many of these moments where you're left thinking 'hang on a second, what just happened there?' that it ends up spoiling the overall film. Bond's sudden reappearance after appearing to be dead, Silva's convoluted plan to confront M that just ends up being a shoot em up in a courtroom, and the nonsensical 'plan' to take M to somewhere she will almost certainly die, are just a few examples. It all just adds up to a botched plot and something that doesn't convince in its entirety.

    Arguing over Severine's death is just a symptom of the wider issues with the film.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Plus he hardly knew Severine so he would hardly have many emotions for her.If he was like this he would be crying over all deaths !!
  • Posts: 11,425
    Dragonpol wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perhaps we are looking into this a little too much. There was always a possibility a character like Severine would die and it wouldn't be practical for Bond to be too mournful of her death throughout the film. The world Bond lives in is a nasty one, and we the audience, should accept that.

    Indeed, some people seem to miss the fact that Bond's is violent world where tender emotions cannot always be shown in order to get on with the mission or job at hand. Look at CR novel and GF opening for Fleming authority for this stance in SF.

    No one is denying this. What is unclear is what DC was trying to convey in that scene and whether it is very convincing. Bond has just slept with the woman and he now sees her shot in cold blood right in front of him. Is a lame quip a believable response? If we're supposed to take it at face value, then this Bond is a pretty repellant person - which leads onto a whole set of other issues, already widely discussed about how DC portrays Bond
  • Posts: 11,425
    barryt007 wrote:
    Plus he hardly knew Severine so he would hardly have many emotions for her.If he was like this he would be crying over all deaths !!

    He doesn't have to have deep emotions for her to be repelled by what he has just witnessed.

    If he genuinely feels nothing, then isn't that kind of disgusting though?
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I remember when Tilly (a clear lesbian in the books) is killed in the GF novel at the end Bond just stands over her with Felix and says "poor little bitch". Granted he never slept with her but she did help him throughout the mission. Not exactly the nicest bloke.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I remember when Tilly is killed in the GF novel at the end Bond just stands over her with Felix and says "poor little bitch". Not exactly the nicest bloke.

    That's a good point, @BAIN123.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I remember when Tilly is killed in the GF novel at the end Bond just stands over her with Felix and says "poor little bitch". Not exactly the nicest bloke.

    I think it expresses a totally different emotional response to 'waste of a good scotch'.

    I'm not claiming he should have been in tears and nor am I saying Bond is a 'nice' guy - just that the response in SF does not work on any level. Either as emotional response or 'amusing' riposte.

    It sounds like something a fanboy would write as a response to Bond seeing someone killed. I just don't think Bond sees the death of a woman quite as this scene suggests.

    I know continuity is not a strong point in the series, but is this really the same Bond we see protect Solange from the inferno , or shocked by the death of Fields in QoS? I think it is a fair comment, as we know DC approaches the part with seriousness (unlike Brosnan) and is attempting to build a rounded portrait of Bond. It just doesn't ring true.

    As you say, in itself, not a major issue and certainly something I could have overlooked, if the rest of the film wasn't so hit and miss as well.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    That line was a bloody waste of an otherwise good scene.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Bond does express some regret though if I remember. Not all that much but some.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    That line was a bloody waste of an otherwise good scene.

    I totally agree. I loved Silva's entrance and really thought the film was about to step up a gear. But when I saw the film in the cinema, it was after the CGI helicopters appeared that I really felt the whole film took a real turn for the worse. Up until then I'd been willing myself to overlook the annoyingly clumsy plotting. From the moment they get back to London though, I really think the wheels start coming off and the whole thing just starts imploding under the weight of the poorly resolved plot and script.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!

    There's little certainty in espionage. Severine's boss was the best lead; Bond took it. As for Bond not taking a gun, I imagine Bond WANTED to be taken to Silva not get killed in a shootout. If he'd had a gun, Silva's goons would have divested him of it, at the very least.

  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!

    There's little certainty in espionage. Severine's boss was the best lead; Bond took it. As for Bond not taking a gun, I imagine Bond WANTED to be taken to Silva not get killed in a shootout. If he'd had a gun, Silva's goons would have divested him of it, at the very least.

    SO Bond's using the old 'get caught to infiltrate' ruse. Which Silva is actually playing on him at the same time.

    They're so clever these script writers these days.

    May be they should use the idea in other films. Oh, hang on a second, they have done, in practically every blockbuster over the past 3 years...

    This is derivative at best, and utterly lazy and lacking in originality at worst.

    Is Bond really so bereft of invention that the only plan he can come up with is to get caught, on purpose? Even Connery's allegedly inept Bond in GF was caught in the process of trying to infiltrate GF's factory/base.

    Again, in an of itself, it's not a biggy, just part of a pattern of lazy plotting and script-writing.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Getafix wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perhaps we are looking into this a little too much. There was always a possibility a character like Severine would die and it wouldn't be practical for Bond to be too mournful of her death throughout the film. The world Bond lives in is a nasty one, and we the audience, should accept that.

    Indeed, some people seem to miss the fact that Bond's is violent world where tender emotions cannot always be shown in order to get on with the mission or job at hand. Look at CR novel and GF opening for Fleming authority for this stance in SF.

    No one is denying this. What is unclear is what DC was trying to convey in that scene and whether it is very convincing. Bond has just slept with the woman and he now sees her shot in cold blood right in front of him. Is a lame quip a believable response? If we're supposed to take it at face value, then this Bond is a pretty repellant person - which leads onto a whole set of other issues, already widely discussed about how DC portrays Bond

    Yes. Bond is ice cold. This is something Fleming established very early and that was reiterated in CR and QOS. A pity, I suppose, that he doesn't live up to the nancy-boy mentality of today's western "youth." But if f you want something out of character, watch Bond at his most sucrose in TWINE.

  • Posts: 2,483
    Getafix wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!

    There's little certainty in espionage. Severine's boss was the best lead; Bond took it. As for Bond not taking a gun, I imagine Bond WANTED to be taken to Silva not get killed in a shootout. If he'd had a gun, Silva's goons would have divested him of it, at the very least.

    SO Bond's using the old 'get caught to infiltrate' ruse. Which Silva is actually playing on him at the same time.

    They're so clever these script writers these days.

    May be they should use the idea in other films. Oh, hang on a second, they have done, in practically every blockbuster over the past 3 years...

    This is derivative at best, and utterly lazy and lacking in originality at worst.

    Is Bond really so bereft of invention that the only plan he can come up with is to get caught, on purpose? Even Connery's allegedly inept Bond in GF was caught in the process of trying to infiltrate GF's factory/base.

    If repetition of plot devices gets your panties in a wad--and it obviously does--you should have abandoned Bond long, long ago.

  • edited March 2014 Posts: 2,483
    Getafix wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Plus he hardly knew Severine so he would hardly have many emotions for her.If he was like this he would be crying over all deaths !!

    He doesn't have to have deep emotions for her to be repelled by what he has just witnessed.

    If he genuinely feels nothing, then isn't that kind of disgusting though?

    Fine. He's disgusting. Go find another franchise to support. Maybe they'll do Bedknobs and Broomsticks Part II. Ought to be your speed.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Bedknobs and Broomsticks is fabulous, one of my favourites. No part 2 please. That would be sacrilegious.
  • Posts: 908
    Getafix wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!


    But yes, I do have an issue with the way Bond just turns up on the boat, standing on the deck with apparently no plan or idea of what he's there to do. It feels like Mendes prioritised a nice shot of Bond and Severine on the deck over narrative.

    As no one knows Bond is on board until he prances out onto the deck, why not stay hidden and sneak onto the island unseen? He can still get caught, but at least Bond doesn't look like a total amateur/idiot.

    So very true. You see in another Bond movie I wouldn't mind that point so much, but here combined with all the other stuff that happened up to that moment, invisibly but unarmed entering the ship, with no plan at all except screwing her in the shower and maybe "they won't search me, they won't find the radio. Of course these guys might be clever enough to break the firewall of MI6, but hey they are certainly not smart enough to asume that I might have a gun with me,let alone a radio. Wow, I'm so full of wit they should call me superspy!
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Oh, she does, I agree - but that is why folk don't like the scene, or some of us, because Bond pledged he'd save her, and he doesn't. It's okay to act all masterful, but it does help if you can follow through, otherwise any of us can say that...

    James Bond is not a superhero; he's a flawed human being. The sooner people jettison the faulty image in favor of an accurate one, the more they'll be able to properly appreciate films like SF.

    Flawed might be an euphemism concerning this guy. Does anyone wonder what plan he actually had when he entered the ship without even a gun? Actually when you think about it he couldn't have even known for sure that Severignes boss was who he was looking for,since Patrice was a freelancer. For all Bond knew this island guy might have turned out to be a sadistic chinese gangster boss, who would fry him in oil just for shagging Severigne.
    Not even Flemings Bond (who wasn't the brightest of lights,so to speak) would have done so!

    There's little certainty in espionage. Severine's boss was the best lead; Bond took it. As for Bond not taking a gun, I imagine Bond WANTED to be taken to Silva not get killed in a shootout. If he'd had a gun, Silva's goons would have divested him of it, at the very least.

    SO Bond's using the old 'get caught to infiltrate' ruse. Which Silva is actually playing on him at the same time.

    They're so clever these script writers these days.

    May be they should use the idea in other films. Oh, hang on a second, they have done, in practically every blockbuster over the past 3 years...

    This is derivative at best, and utterly lazy and lacking in originality at worst.

    Is Bond really so bereft of invention that the only plan he can come up with is to get caught, on purpose? Even Connery's allegedly inept Bond in GF was caught in the process of trying to infiltrate GF's factory/base.

    If repetition of plot devices gets your panties in a wad--and it obviously does--you should have abandoned Bond long, long ago.

    When someone thinks it's a good idea to do a mash-up of GE and TWINE, that's when I start saying it's time for some new plot ideas.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Plus he hardly knew Severine so he would hardly have many emotions for her.If he was like this he would be crying over all deaths !!

    He doesn't have to have deep emotions for her to be repelled by what he has just witnessed.

    If he genuinely feels nothing, then isn't that kind of disgusting though?

    Fine. He's disgusting. Go find another franchise to support. Maybe they'll do Bedknobs and Broomsticks Part II. Ought to be your speed.

    At least it contains some original Fleming material.
  • Posts: 2,483
    One m in Fleming. Ahem.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Beat you to it, pedant.
  • Posts: 908
    Getafix wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perhaps we are looking into this a little too much. There was always a possibility a character like Severine would die and it wouldn't be practical for Bond to be too mournful of her death throughout the film. The world Bond lives in is a nasty one, and we the audience, should accept that.

    Indeed, some people seem to miss the fact that Bond's is violent world where tender emotions cannot always be shown in order to get on with the mission or job at hand. Look at CR novel and GF opening for Fleming authority for this stance in SF.

    No one is denying this. What is unclear is what DC was trying to convey in that scene and whether it is very convincing. Bond has just slept with the woman and he now sees her shot in cold blood right in front of him. Is a lame quip a believable response? If we're supposed to take it at face value, then this Bond is a pretty repellant person - which leads onto a whole set of other issues, already widely discussed about how DC portrays Bond

    Yes. Bond is ice cold. This is something Fleming established very early and that was reiterated in CR and QOS. A pity, I suppose, that he doesn't live up to the nancy-boy mentality of today's western "youth." But if f you want something out of character, watch Bond at his most sucrose in TWINE.

    You really should get yourself one of the novels and read it. Bond actually is so soft and easy falling in love in the books, that he would be an embarrassment to the British Secret Service.
    From the first novel on he is struggling with his job description and moralizing about it. See in Bond whatever you like, but don't take Fleming and his work as a witness (in your case I should say hostage).
    Oh,and if you would ever like to read about a genuine tough-minded hero just get any of the books Donald Hamilton from 1960 to1977. His Matt Helm is a real professional, who would eat the likes of Bond on toast (and forgot about it half an hour later).
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 2,483
    Bond falls in lust easily, love, not so much. And while he does feel the sting of rejection--Moonraker--he quickly recovers and gets on with his life. He certainly doesn't fall apart like a teary-eyed schoolgirl in the middle of a mission the way SF's detractors believe he should have. Ergo, Bond's duty is to the mission first, everything else, last.
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