Is Skyfall losing its gloss and appeal ?

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  • Posts: 4,617
    One of the factors in bringing an a very big name as the composer is that they have their own reputation, way of doing things and back catalogue etc .All this IMHO makes it harder to fit in with a franchise with a very long heritage etc. Not only was Barry very talented but he had the luxury of coming in early in the franchise and he was relatively new to the big screen so he could develop something great without being compared to either his previous work or previous Bond movies. Its very hard to get the balance right between bringing in your own style and talent compared to respecting Barry and the enormous contribution to Bond that he has made over the decades.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Because I'm fairly convinced that "Skyfall" has the chance to get more "Evergreen-status" than for instance "QOS" or "DAD". I'm fairly convinced it will be a classic in the future, similarly to "Goldfinger", "The Spy Who Loved Me" and to a lesser extent "GoldenEye" and "Casino Royale".
    The casual moviegoer will soon come to dismiss SF as "That boring movie where Bond's female boss gets killed."

    With the elevator music.
    :))

    I think you're in the minority on that...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    I think SF will rank with The Great Escape etc as a firm TV favourite for generations to come

    Now that's quite a statement!
  • Posts: 11,119
    @Gustav_Graves As i said, I loved SF, it's in my top 5 Bond films, but it is not without faults. IMO all 23 Bond films so far are far from being perfect, but that is not what I look for in Bond films. I don't care if the plot is unrealistic, or whatever, all I want is fun, glamour, escapism, which SF certainly delivered. I was very pleased with the return of Q and Moneypenny, I thought the soundtrack was pretty good but I missed the full blast Bond theme during badass moments. :)

    Then you must have missed it in CR and QOS as well :-).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Not in CR because I understood what they were trying to achieve, but in QOS I did yes.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Not in CR because I understood what they were trying to achieve, but in QOS I did yes.

    And QOS?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Not in CR because I understood what they were trying to achieve, but in QOS I did yes.

    And QOS?

    I mean I missed the Bond theme in QOS and SF :) I think there can be a middle ground between almost not using it and playing it every 5 minutes (TND).

  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,119
    Not in CR because I understood what they were trying to achieve, but in QOS I did yes.

    And QOS?

    I mean I missed the Bond theme in QOS and SF :) I think there can be a middle ground between almost not using it and playing it every 5 minutes (TND).


    Well, so far, from all Craig-films.......in all honesty, I heard the James Bond theme most times in "Skyfall" really.

    But then again....not everyone one of us can be made happy :-).
  • Posts: 7,653
    patb wrote: »
    One of the factors in bringing an a very big name as the composer is that they have their own reputation, way of doing things and back catalogue etc .All this IMHO makes it harder to fit in with a franchise with a very long heritage etc. Not only was Barry very talented but he had the luxury of coming in early in the franchise and he was relatively new to the big screen so he could develop something great without being compared to either his previous work or previous Bond movies. Its very hard to get the balance right between bringing in your own style and talent compared to respecting Barry and the enormous contribution to Bond that he has made over the decades.

    John Barry created the sound for the 007 franchise which he was able to do due to his very large talent. The franchise can count itself lucky that it had such a major force on board. The music from FRWL onward was a major force in the franchise success.

    Think of Star Wars, Indiana Jones, The Dollar trilogy or even The Third man without their original and brilliant music.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    First, to answer the stated question, which I've answered before in this thread to the extend of 'yes, it isn't as good as I thought it was when it was released', I now consider it a very good film indeed. Still, it has the 'Goldfinger'feel for me, and though many of you will consider that to be the epitomy of Bond, for me it isn't. It has excellent parts offset by not-good parts, which do too much damage. TB is better imo.
    As is QoS by the way.

    On Newman's score: I think it's pretty good, and I think it's nice to have a new composer, and it's even nicer he didn't blow it all to smithereens (eh, Serra?). Many fans wanted Arnold to go away, and I do have the impression that these are the same who are now asking for his return. Or they've decided now to hold their breath and hope Newman finishes the discussion with SPECTRE's be all end all score.


  • Posts: 11,119
    "Skyfall" is being dissected so intensely, so heavily and so disproportionately....
    fe063943110e6d52f7744e9c8391-11.jpg
    ....that in the end, obviously, people, especially on the forum, start disliking the film. Hence this topic, hence a certain snowball-effect due to this :-).

    I am going to tell one last thing. I think the biggest problem of certain (not all!) people is, that they lack imagination. Novels are not like films. Obviously. But if one can't deal with certain open-ended questions that a movie is leaving behind -certain items/aspects of the film that are left open for your own creative and fantastical interpretation-, then he/she perhaps really needs to indulge in other films...or in any case coming up with positive-spirited solutions for the next Bond film.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,800
    coming up with positive-spirited solutions for the next Bond film.
    From what I've read, the next film will, apart from another bland Newman score, fix all the previous problems (that is, the ultra gritty, ultra serious, and the needless attempt to make a not-a-Bond-film Bond film).

  • Posts: 11,119
    chrisisall wrote: »
    coming up with positive-spirited solutions for the next Bond film.
    From what I've read, the next film will, apart from another bland Newman score, fix all the previous problems (that is, the ultra gritty, ultra serious, and the needless attempt to make a not-a-Bond-film Bond film).

    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a shit product. It's exactly this attitude I dislike. The comparison between the good, perfectly executed elements of the film and the elements that are not so good, are completely gone. Putting things into perspective is a no-go for you.

    I can understand why "Skyfall" is not the best film. But lately exaggeration is the new standard. Perspective is gone. "Skyfall" IMO needs to endure unconstructive bashing for the sake of popcorn, superficial entertainment.

    I'm talking only this time in a hyperbole, because I think it is needed as compared to your hyperbole :-).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited January 2015 Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote: »
    coming up with positive-spirited solutions for the next Bond film.
    From what I've read, the next film will, apart from another bland Newman score, fix all the previous problems (that is, the ultra gritty, ultra serious, and the needless attempt to make a not-a-Bond-film Bond film).

    And that's the stuff that worries me. I love the Craig films because they tell earnest tales with little room for stupid one-liners, which I don't think work in the films anyway (the same goes for the stupid gadgets we're apparently getting). I hope that kind of tone won't change. The worst possible Bond combo would be a Moore film dashed on top of a perfect Craig Bond adventure. I honestly thought we left all that campy tripe behind.

    @chrisisall, for a fan of Dalton's Bond you sure seem to resent serious Bond adventures. I still hold that LTK has gone farther into dark territory than any Bond film before or since.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    coming up with positive-spirited solutions for the next Bond film.
    From what I've read, the next film will, apart from another bland Newman score, fix all the previous problems (that is, the ultra gritty, ultra serious, and the needless attempt to make a not-a-Bond-film Bond film).

    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a shit product. It's exactly this attitude I dislike. The comparison between the good, perfectly executed elements of the film and the elements that are not so good, are completely gone. Putting things into perspective is a no-go for you.

    I can understand why "Skyfall" is not the best film. But lately exaggeration is the new standard. Perspective is gone. "Skyfall" IMO needs to endure unconstructive bashing for the sake of popcorn, superficial entertainment.

    I'm talking only this time in a hyperbole, because I think it is needed as compared to your hyperbole :-).

    The complaints for it have been quite proliferated as of late, as if one person called its bluff and then everyone just decided to join in for the hell of it.

    Still, it makes sense. After a two year period of everyone dishing Skyfall massive loads of praise, it has now switched to a different group of people delivering a massive load of criticism. While my crew and I are considered overly generous with our love, they are growing more and more overly generous with their criticisms.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,800
    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a sh*t product.
    Given the amount of money poured into it, well... yeah.
    The producer's job (in part) is to secure a good script. If they fail, the Director's job (in part) is to find a way to make sense of the nonsense.
    But hey- the film looks very good.
    It's just... why is November Man, a film made with less than 1/10 the budget of SF, such a vastly superior film?
    :-??

    Brosnan bashers, the tide hath TURNED!!!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    chrisisall wrote: »
    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a sh*t product.
    Given the amount of money poured into it, well... yeah.
    The producer's job (in part) is to secure a good script. If they fail, the Director's job (in part) is to find a way to make sense of the nonsense.
    But hey- the film looks very good.
    It's just... why is November Man, a film made with less than 1/10 the budget of SF, such a vastly superior film?
    :-??

    Brosnan bashers, the tide hath TURNED!!!

    Oh my... No words. I love Broz, and I love his movies but to call November Man "vastly superior" is beyond reason.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote: »
    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a sh*t product.
    Given the amount of money poured into it, well... yeah.
    The producer's job (in part) is to secure a good script. If they fail, the Director's job (in part) is to find a way to make sense of the nonsense.
    But hey- the film looks very good.
    It's just... why is November Man, a film made with less than 1/10 the budget of SF, such a vastly superior film?
    :-??

    Brosnan bashers, the tide hath TURNED!!!

    Oh my... No words. I love Broz, and I love his movies but to call November Man "vastly superior" is beyond reason.

    I love November Man as well, and even I have to call that bluff.

    I honestly don't see how Skyfall can be considered a "sh*t product" when it raked in a billion plus dollars. Obviously people ate it up, so much so that leagues of people went again and again to see it like addicts. I'm happy to count myself with that group.
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a sh*t product.
    Given the amount of money poured into it, well... yeah.
    The producer's job (in part) is to secure a good script. If they fail, the Director's job (in part) is to find a way to make sense of the nonsense.
    But hey- the film looks very good.
    It's just... why is November Man, a film made with less than 1/10 the budget of SF, such a vastly superior film?
    :-??

    Brosnan bashers, the tide hath TURNED!!!

    Good point. And yes, as ever, EON take huge responsibility for the quality of the script.

    I really don't understand what their problem is. Is their really such a shortage of talented screenwriters out there? And I don't mean Haggis and Logan.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,800
    to call November Man "vastly superior" is beyond reason.
    In what ways is it not? It has a better musical score, more interesting fight scenes, and a better & more cohesive story.
    Okay, the cinematography was better in SF, I'll give you that.
    I honestly don't see how Skyfall can be considered a "sh*t product" when it raked in a billion plus dollars.
    Oh my, do you REALLY want me to trot out the list of biggest all-time moneymakers again...
    :))
  • Posts: 11,119
    chrisisall wrote: »
    You make it sound that "Skyfall" is a sh*t product.
    Given the amount of money poured into it, well... yeah.
    The producer's job (in part) is to secure a good script. If they fail, the Director's job (in part) is to find a way to make sense of the nonsense.
    But hey- the film looks very good.
    It's just... why is November Man, a film made with less than 1/10 the budget of SF, such a vastly superior film?
    :-??

    Brosnan bashers, the tide hath TURNED!!!

    Oh my... No words. I love Broz, and I love his movies but to call November Man "vastly superior" is beyond reason.

    Indeed. And for the very same reason Anton Corbijn's "A Most Wanted Man" got completely ignored here. I thought it would receive a lot of positive reviews in here. The fact is the topic "The November Man", being quite a lacklustre films, gets more praise and receives way more posts than the topic "A Most Wanted Man".

    I know Brosnan's name is part of it. But I won't cloud my judgement if one actor has a Bond-tag, and the othere one not.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    It's just... why is November Man, a film made with less than 1/10 the budget of SF, such a vastly superior film?
    :-??

    Brosnan bashers, the tide hath TURNED!!!

    SF is definitely not god's gift to movies, as some have speculated on this site, but I surely think it's in a far different league than November Man, which I also liked btw. November Man had kind of a tv movie feel to me. SF was epic in a TDK way.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited January 2015 Posts: 7,551
    I should have mentioned that I love Broz' movies, although I'm not in love with November Man. I'm not a film critic so I don't have an arsenal of concrete things to say about why Skyfall made me feel the way it did when I watched it, versus how I felt when watching November Man, but Skyfall just strikes a chord with me the entire way through whereas NM didn't do it for me nearly as much. It just sort of felt superficial, like it was glossing over the top of something; Skyfall took its time everywhere, and really benefited.

    I also don't get the widespread hate for the score in Skyfall, which I thought was great, and is on my iPhone, and I listen to it quite a bit. To me, there's a better musical score, more interesting fight scenes and a better & more cohesive story in the Skyfall PTS* than in the entire November Man film, but to each his own, obviously.

    *And then you get to watch an entire Bond film!! :D

    EDIT: ^^^ bondjames sums up my feelings towards Skyfall/Novemeber Man nicely and concisely :)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    To me, there's a better musical score, more interesting fight scenes and a better & more cohesive story in the Skyfall PTS* than in the entire November Man film, but to each his own, obviously.
    Yeah, like some people like Batman Forever just because they're Bat-fans. :D
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I quite like Newman's score myself. Is it on John Barry's level? Hell no, but some people have to understand that his brand of musical genius is a cherished rarity.

    The same can be said for King John Williams, the modern day Mozart of sorts.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I also did not mind Newman's score. I found it fresh. However, I've always liked it when they brought in new composers (all of them, including Serra). They all bring some thing new.

    Personally, it is Arnold who I think has produced some real forgettable junk for the series (particularly on the action scoring side where it just sounds like very loud banging noise to me) but I have to say CR/QoS was by far his best work.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    bondjames wrote: »
    November Man had kind of a tv movie feel to me. SF was epic in a TDK way.
    I'll take a great flick with a 'TV movie feel' (a call I disagree with, btw) over a so-so flick with grand production any time.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited January 2015 Posts: 7,551
    chrisisall wrote: »
    To me, there's a better musical score, more interesting fight scenes and a better & more cohesive story in the Skyfall PTS* than in the entire November Man film, but to each his own, obviously.
    Yeah, like some people like Batman Forever just because they're Bat-fans. :D

    No, not really like that. If you're suggesting I like Skyfall because I like Bond, that logic should indicate that I like *all* Bond movies, and I assure you, I do not.

    Honestly, there's a lot to say about the faults of Skyfall, but when you make comments like NM is "vastly superior" and start making Batman Forever comparisons, you do yourself and your credibility on the topic a great disservice :P
    I quite like Newman's score myself. Is it on John Barry's level? Hell no, but some people have to understand that his brand of musical genius is a cherished rarity.

    The same can be said for King John Williams, the modern day Mozart of sorts.

    Agree! Love the stuff that Hans Zimmer puts out too, loved the music in Interstellar, and Nolan's Batman movies. Argh, now I've got bats on the brain!!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    I also did not mind Newman's score. I found it fresh. However, I've always liked it when they brought in new composers (all of them, including Serra). They all bring some thing new.

    Personally, it is Arnold who I think has produced some real forgettable junk for the series (particularly on the action scoring side where it just sounds like very loud banging noise to me) but I have to say CR/QoS was by far his best work.

    I like a lot of his recent Bond work, as you said, but when I listened to that tribute album he did with a bunch of musicians covering old Bond tunes, on the whole I found it very cringeworthy.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    bondjames wrote: »
    I also did not mind Newman's score. I found it fresh. However, I've always liked it when they brought in new composers (all of them, including Serra). They all bring some thing new.

    Personally, it is Arnold who I think has produced some real forgettable junk for the series (particularly on the action scoring side where it just sounds like very loud banging noise to me) but I have to say CR/QoS was by far his best work.

    Interestingly, I found the CR score to be the weakest of the three Craig movies, which I think is a pretty unpopular opinion. I've got all three soundtracks and find myself going back to them in reverse order.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,800
    when you make comments like NM is "vastly superior" and start making Batman Forever comparisons, you do yourself and your credibility on the topic a great disservice :P
    Look, I'm not gonna write a thousand word essay in an attempt to convince anyone, but anyone who can't see that the fight scenes, the story, and the music in NM required more work and risks than the bland but safe stuff in SF just isn't into objective analysis of the films. I mean, I like TMWTGG, a movie on as shaky if not shakier ground story-wise than SF, but I'm prepared to state that I like the movie for certain elements I enjoy while I acknowledge that overall it really isn't a very good movie.
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