Is Skyfall losing its gloss and appeal ?

1313234363759

Comments

  • Posts: 1,394
    I can understand people being disappointed, maybe it's not their cup of tea, but comparing SF to DAD? Really? >-)

    Yes really.DAD is silly but entertaining, Skyfall thinks its intelligent and deep but is just silly.

  • Posts: 11,189
    SF is at least well acted and competently made technically.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I think you will disappointed with SP then. SF was a £1b profit making product, so they'll try and repeat the tone and form of it.

    It's why I'm only getting myself excited for the idea of a new Bond film. With Mendes at the helm (and having read quite a few of the leaks), I know what to expect. I won't be going into it like I did SF, so who knows, it could actually surprise me with how "less hyped" I am.

    I think we're on a similar page. (Minus the leaks)

    Have faith in Mendes.
    3:-O

    I have faith in him to an extent, but this is the man who brought back the GF DB5. I have issues with him.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited March 2015 Posts: 7,553
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I think you will disappointed with SP then. SF was a £1b profit making product, so they'll try and repeat the tone and form of it.

    It's why I'm only getting myself excited for the idea of a new Bond film. With Mendes at the helm (and having read quite a few of the leaks), I know what to expect. I won't be going into it like I did SF, so who knows, it could actually surprise me with how "less hyped" I am.

    I think we're on a similar page. (Minus the leaks)

    Have faith in Mendes.
    3:-O

    I have faith in him to an extent, but this is the man who brought back the GF DB5. I have issues with him.

    Difficult but not impossible to explain.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I think you will disappointed with SP then. SF was a £1b profit making product, so they'll try and repeat the tone and form of it.

    It's why I'm only getting myself excited for the idea of a new Bond film. With Mendes at the helm (and having read quite a few of the leaks), I know what to expect. I won't be going into it like I did SF, so who knows, it could actually surprise me with how "less hyped" I am.

    I think we're on a similar page. (Minus the leaks)

    Have faith in Mendes.
    3:-O

    I have faith in him to an extent, but this is the man who brought back the GF DB5. I have issues with him.

    Difficult but not impossible to explain.

    It's not about explanation for me. It's about reason.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    Did you....quote only that sentence? Or did you also read my entire post @RC7?

    I quoted your opening gambit and then tried to explain why people may or may not judge SF on different terms. I also hinted at aspects we agree on, but if you want a more thorough response, see below...
    --> ACTING: Foremost this is IMO the biggest strength of "Skyfall". I think seeing Javier Bardem being consumed by the character Raoul Silva, makes you actually forget about plot holes. And I think this is part of the success of the film. "Skyfall" is not so much about memorable action sequences. But IT IS about memorable scenes in general. Examples: Silva's grand entrance (perhaps reminiscent of previous grand entrances of Bond villains from the 1960's), Silva's insane little William Tell game with Bond (Seeing Silva shooting down Severine is ONE of my personal highlights of the film), and Silva's conversation with "M" (until the gory moment when he puts out his prosthesis). Does it belong in a Bond film? I welcome change, and off course I think this approach can belong in a Bond-film.

    I agree that the acting on the whole is great, as I said in my previous post, with Bardem being a highlight of the film. Severine's scene is also a really powerful moment. Harris delivers the weakest performance in my eyes. When you say, 'Does it belong in a Bond film?' Are you referring to Silva's facial deformity?
    --> CHARACTERS: As I said before, screenplay writing is IMO about three things: a) Plot/Story, b) Characters and c) Dialogue. B) and C) are IMO the highlight of the "Skyfall" screenplay. Yes, some people tend to disagree with that. But movies can not be groundbreaking if one can't twist and change the technical rules of screenplay writing. I heard people saying that the "rule should be that screenplay must have a good well-explained story/plot". What counts for me is the impact of the total package; the finished film, not just one aspect like plot. Obviously "Skyfall" worked in that sense. And even set a new standard. The screenplay of "Skyfall" also hold up because of ingenious dialogue. Not so much the humor-parts, but especially the tense dramatic parts of dialogue are well-crafted. Does this approach belong in a Bond-film? Why not!

    This is first and foremost a film, it should therefore service a decent story across the 2+ hours I'm watching. That's the least I ask for. SF has a story, but it's a little disjointed in my eyes and relies too much on the crash, bang, wallop, to mask any deficiencies or oddities that are presented. Silva's omniscient manner doesn't help this. In a TV series you can get away with certain episodes that maybe don't progress the central narrative because they are taking a breather to build characters or their backgrounds. Film doesn't allow this in the same way. You have to progress the characters and the story at the same time, something I'm not sure SF always does. It doesn't not do it, but I think it could be better balanced. The fact we're talking about this regard a Bond film is a positive, though. The character work on the whole is great, with the exception of MP. Her whole arc doesn't satisfy me in the slightest. I wouldn't have included her. Another side note on character - every time they gave DC a Moore-esque witticism it diminished the overall feel of the character. It didn't suit him. I don't understand how Mendes can show attention to detail with the dramatic aspects, but then think it's equally fine to throw in one-liners here and there which are completely off-kilter. Bond doesn't do this in the previous two outings, he's more sardonic.
    --> DRAMA: Many "typical" Bond films found this aspect too forced, sometimes even irritating. I think this is because Bond films usually are not famed for having good drama, nor is the taste of typical Bond fans very supportive of emotional drama. And let's face it, Sam Mendes is a drama director. Still, good drama IMO is always derived from well-written characters and their backgrounds. The definition is: "It depends mostly on in-depth development of realistic characters dealing with emotional themes. It is the theme that puts the characters in conflict with themselves, others or society." Regardless of the plot, the actual motives of the characters, like those of Silva, 'M' and Bond, are entirely believable. It's not so much about "HOW" the events, leading to the motives of the characters, happened. But "Skyfall" is more about the "WHY", why the characters are acting in the film like they do. WHY is Silva so vengeful. WHY does Bond get a shut-down when his doctor refers to "Skyfall". WHY is 'M' such a mother figure to Bond.

    I like any dramatic weight that can be added to these films. While we have DC in the role we might as well make the most of it. The most powerful moment in the series is, for me, is Vesper's death. More so than Tracy's and definitely more than M's. There are also some brilliant bits of drama in QoS, but they seem few and far between in the mire of action. SF brings it back round again and allows for time to breath. I do think Bond's return to London is quite quick, I'd actually like to have seen him spiral even further and take much longer to get his shit together. The trajectory is a little off to me. Yes I agree that the question should be always be 'Why?' Why a character does something is key. It doesn't always make complete sense, though. Silva's actions aren't ever fully explained, I still don't know whether he intended for everything to fall into place, or whether it was a combination of planning and chance. The fact this wasn't explicitly clear on first viewing was annoying. I just got the impression that whenever they'd written themselves into a corner, or needed to get from A to B, they'd fall back on computer wizardry to allow them to do something dramatically interesting but bereft of logic. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Linking to that is the notion of 'why' Bond would take 'M' to SF. Because it's the only option, or because it neatly compliments hi-tech/low-tech themes? My instinct says the latter. It's just a little trite. How do we get there, Q lays some electronic breadcrumbs. What is this? Bond using his credit card in a shop in Scotland? Or is Q trying to lay a fake trail elsewhere to keep Silva at bay? I'd quite like to know as it means nothing on the surface. It feels like this is a moment where Q should be operating at the top of his game to lure Silva, but we just have to assume he does it. Strange, given he's been screwed by Silva at every turn up until that point. It's all left unexplained because we're straight into 'childhood drama' by then. Something I'd have happily seen scrapped, or at least stripped back.
    One can disagree on taste. And obviously a lot of Bond fans in here didn't like it. But I can only conclude that those people who paid some Dollars leading to that $1.1 Billion box office indirectly set a new and original standard. Apparently, they didn't miss the lack of a tight well-explained plot or memorable action sequences on first viewing. So "Skyfall" could indeed get an evergreen status in the near future. The insane amount of topics, in which "Skyfall" is discussed even more than many other Bond-films, could also be seen as another wonderful success. So please, Sam Mendes really deserves more credit for all this.

    I don't think people are actively seeking plots that are lacking, but I think SF does enough to keep the film ticking along at a decent pace, with enough smoke and mirrors that you don't start to question the motives and actions of the characters too heavily. I think this is why this topic has arisen. Because some fans, after multiple viewings, are starting to question whether this is actually a brilliant story or just a mediocre, but lovely looking one that is well executed? As I said in my previous post, I've had problems with SF from day one, so I'm not someone who has retrospectively downgraded it. I have some small issues with it, some large, but for the sake of simplicity the 'hacking/computer magic' to use a catch-all term, and 'The omniscient Silva' are my two biggest problems. They took me out of the movie on my first viewing at the premiere, a place in which I could be forgiven for wearing rose-tinted glasses. It left me scratching my head and that's a shame, because a lot of it is brilliantly done.

    [/quote]

    Thanks @RC7 for your time and effort at commenting on my rather large amount of arguments and explanations. I really appreciate that. I will come back to you on this during the weekend OK?

    By the way, I think we will never agree on how we see "Skyfall". And that isn't the aim off course. To be continued ok? :)
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited March 2015 Posts: 5,080
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.
  • Posts: 11,119
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 2015 Posts: 8,400
    I love Skyfall with a passion, but if I was to suggest one criticism it would be that you can't watch the film without thinking about it's themes. This is an advantage that Campbell has over Mendes, IMO. Both of Campbell's films have some development for the bond character but crucailly, if you aren't interesting in the character development, you can just ignore it and watch them as great escapist action films. Trying to do this with skyfall is rather difficult, and sitting through the same meditation on aging with every viewing can be rather exhausting. That's why I don't watch it too often, doing so can cause burn out and cause me to not want to watch it again for a while. But with GE I can watch it almost daily and the soap opera moments aren't as prevalent, don't distract from the action and flow of the film. It's more subtle filmmaking. I still love Skyfall, just thought I'd throw a bone to those who have trouble seeing past it's issue's.

    On a brief side note I would love to see Martin Campbell return when a new actor steps into the role. Imagine a Campbell trilogy, each featuring a new actor, that would be incredible!! \:D/
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I love Skyfall with a passion, but if I was to suggest one criticism it would be that you can't watch the film without thinking about it's themes. This is an advantage that Campbell has over Mendes, IMO. Both of Campbell's films have some development for the bond character but crucailly, if you aren't interesting in the character development, you can just ignore it and watch them as great escapist action films. Trying to do this with skyfall is rather difficult, and sitting through the same meditation on aging with every viewing can be rather exhausting. That's why I don't watch it too often, doing so can cause burn out and cause me to not want to watch it again for a while. But with GE I can watch it almost daily and the soap opera moments aren't as prevalent, don't distract from the action and flow of the film. It's more subtle filmmaking. I still love Skyfall, just thought I'd throw a bone to those who have trouble seeing past it's issue's.

    On a brief side note I would love to see Martin Campbell return when a new actor steps into the role. Imagine a Campbell trilogy, each featuring a new actor, that would be incredible!! \:D/

    You've made some great points, but I really don't watch SF for either its themes (which really resonate with some here) or its plot (which some here have real problems with) actually.

    I watch it because it's absolutely stunning to look at, and I really enjoy the performances from everyone concerned. It has real style, panache and class and I appreciate that in a Bond film.

    So there is a 3rd reason to enjoy it!

    Yes, I would really like Campbell to return, but I think he's said that he is done with Bond.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited March 2015 Posts: 5,080
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited March 2015 Posts: 7,553
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

    Funny you should say that. I rewatched DAD recently and while it remains one of the worst in the series, it almost has that 'it's so bad it's good' thing going on. It's such a car crash of a movie, you're sort gripped to seeing what Tamahori does next to trash the Bond legacy.

    But I actually think TWINE is possibly even worse. It's not only abysmal, it's really boring as well, and has way too much M in it (same as SF). So yes, I agree, I think DAD is bad, but TWINE is worse. GE also sits pretty low in my rankings, but those two reach new depths of awfulness.

    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan era movies IMO. After seeing it I actually thought the films were going to start improving. I was soon to be disappointed!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    Getafix wrote: »
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

    Funny you should say that. I rewatched DAD recently and while it remains one of the worst in the series, it almost has that 'it's so bad it's good' thing going on. It's such a car crash of a movie, you're sort gripped to seeing what Tamahori does next to trash the Bond legacy.

    But I actually think TWINE is possibly even worse. It's not only abysmal, it's really boring as well, and has way too much M in it (same as SF). So yes, I agree, I think DAD is bad, but TWINE is worse. GE also sits pretty low in my rankings, but those two reach new depths of awfulness.

    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan era movies IMO. After seeing it I actually thought the films were going to start improving. I was soon to be disappointed!

    I pretty much agree everywhere with this post, except I really, really like Goldeneye. There could be some bias as it's my first Bond film, but I really do enjoy it. For me, Brosnan's tenure goes GE, TND, DAD, TWINE. But what can I say, I love me some Gustav Graves :P
    GE is in my top 10 for sure.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

    Funny you should say that. I rewatched DAD recently and while it remains one of the worst in the series, it almost has that 'it's so bad it's good' thing going on. It's such a car crash of a movie, you're sort gripped to seeing what Tamahori does next to trash the Bond legacy.

    But I actually think TWINE is possibly even worse. It's not only abysmal, it's really boring as well, and has way too much M in it (same as SF). So yes, I agree, I think DAD is bad, but TWINE is worse. GE also sits pretty low in my rankings, but those two reach new depths of awfulness.

    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan era movies IMO. After seeing it I actually thought the films were going to start improving. I was soon to be disappointed!

    I pretty much agree everywhere with this post, except I really, really like Goldeneye. There could be some bias as it's my first Bond film, but I really do enjoy it. For me, Brosnan's tenure goes GE, TND, DAD, TWINE. But what can I say, I love me some Gustav Graves :P
    GE is in my top 10 for sure.

    Funny. TLD was my first cinema Bond, and I loved it. I had to wait 8 years for GE to see another in the cinema and it didn't live up to my expectations at all. As a big Dalton fan, the change to Brosnan was obviously difficult for me to take. I felt like Brosnan was an inferior Roger Moore knock-off, but without the highly entertaining scripts and stories of the Moore era. Any way, while I don't like GE, I think TWINE and DAD are probably on another level of awful. TND is the only redeeming movie in the Brosnan era - I rank it 4th from bottom, but significantly above the other Brosnan films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

    Funny you should say that. I rewatched DAD recently and while it remains one of the worst in the series, it almost has that 'it's so bad it's good' thing going on. It's such a car crash of a movie, you're sort gripped to seeing what Tamahori does next to trash the Bond legacy.

    But I actually think TWINE is possibly even worse. It's not only abysmal, it's really boring as well, and has way too much M in it (same as SF). So yes, I agree, I think DAD is bad, but TWINE is worse. GE also sits pretty low in my rankings, but those two reach new depths of awfulness.

    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan era movies IMO. After seeing it I actually thought the films were going to start improving. I was soon to be disappointed!

    I pretty much agree everywhere with this post, except I really, really like Goldeneye. There could be some bias as it's my first Bond film, but I really do enjoy it. For me, Brosnan's tenure goes GE, TND, DAD, TWINE. But what can I say, I love me some Gustav Graves :P
    GE is in my top 10 for sure.


    I'm with you on ranking @NickTwentyTwo.

    GE is easily top 10 for me (it's the charismatic crazy performances from the supporting cast I love along with the class that oozes out of the film- similar to SF). TND is 2nd but some way down the list (I find it too TSWLM/YOLT/MR in style but not as good - although the basic premise/idea of the media baron is interesting). DAD is cartoon-like entertaining (but I don't see it as a Bond film but rather more of an entertaining parody). For me, TWINE cannot find a whole deep enough to be flushed down. A disgrace to the legacy imho.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

    Funny you should say that. I rewatched DAD recently and while it remains one of the worst in the series, it almost has that 'it's so bad it's good' thing going on. It's such a car crash of a movie, you're sort gripped to seeing what Tamahori does next to trash the Bond legacy.

    But I actually think TWINE is possibly even worse. It's not only abysmal, it's really boring as well, and has way too much M in it (same as SF). So yes, I agree, I think DAD is bad, but TWINE is worse. GE also sits pretty low in my rankings, but those two reach new depths of awfulness.

    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan era movies IMO. After seeing it I actually thought the films were going to start improving. I was soon to be disappointed!

    I pretty much agree everywhere with this post, except I really, really like Goldeneye. There could be some bias as it's my first Bond film, but I really do enjoy it. For me, Brosnan's tenure goes GE, TND, DAD, TWINE. But what can I say, I love me some Gustav Graves :P
    GE is in my top 10 for sure.

    Funny. TLD was my first cinema Bond, and I loved it. I had to wait 8 years for GE to see another in the cinema and it didn't live up to my expectations at all. As a big Dalton fan, the change to Brosnan was obviously difficult for me to take. I felt like Brosnan was an inferior Roger Moore knock-off, but without the highly entertaining scripts and stories of the Moore era. Any way, while I don't like GE, I think TWINE and DAD are probably on another level of awful. TND is the only redeeming movie in the Brosnan era - I rank it 4th from bottom, but significantly above the other Brosnan films.

    For me DAD and TND are the bottom of the barrel for bond movies. While boring and dull, TWINE doesn't offend me the same way when I watch it so it is much higher. GE was my favorite as a kid so it ranks very highly, probably top 8.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited March 2015 Posts: 7,553
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I really want to LOVE Skyfall, after all I went into the film with a huge amount of anticipation and after the viewing it was mindblowing, however there is just a lot about it I just don't like. I don't like the digital look, I don't like Moneypenny, I don't like Bond and Moneypenny together, locations aren't really classy, except London. Bardem is forgettible and unlikable. Don't like the "old vs new" theme either. The best part of the film for me is the Scottland sequence. Don't get me wrong, I really really like this film, it's in my top 5, but I can't love it like CR. I could watch that all day, and even right now.

    Also, that MI6 explosion scene was a joke. Terrible filmmaking, I could have filmed a better scene than that. I don't know what Dench was thinking, her acting was reminisnt of a high school play.

    Then you must really dislike the other 18 films in the canon...

    Let me rephrase. There are major points of the film that just turn me off about Skyfall. Like I said, when I first saw it I was blown away, and I think it's a great film... just compared to Casino Royale, not quite there. But as a Bond fan, I can't help but love it because it's a Bond film, and because Daniel Craig is my favorite Bond actor and he does a terrific job. My relationship with Skyfall is complicated, what can I say.

    I just found your comment rather incongruous. It struck at first that Skyfall wasn't your cup of tea, then you claimed it's in your top five.

    For me, and I know this is true for other members, too, for a film in my top 5, even top 10, it's got to be bloody well near to perfection. The James Bond series sets standards high.

    I have the greatest respect for you @MayDayDiVicenzo. But wasn't it you who consistently ranked "AVTAK" in your TOP 5 of best Bond films ;-)?

    Yes, indeed. It has since slipped out of the top five but remains in the top ten. I have consistently defended this particular release since my debut on this forum.

    But that's beside my point. My point was how can someone dislike so many elements of a film to the extent that there isn't much else to like in the film, yet rank it in the top five? That would have to mean that the films preceding the top 5 must be pretty dire.

    Personally, I love all 23 films, and so I find it very difficult to rank them. For me, there are only two films that are set in stone- DAD rock bottom and OHMSS at the top.



    Good call! Although, for me, I think there are Bond films I like less than DAD... As blasphemous as that is... DAD I can find entertainment value in whereas there are one or two in the franchise that make me nod off a bit.

    OHMSS, though, absolutely.

    Funny you should say that. I rewatched DAD recently and while it remains one of the worst in the series, it almost has that 'it's so bad it's good' thing going on. It's such a car crash of a movie, you're sort gripped to seeing what Tamahori does next to trash the Bond legacy.

    But I actually think TWINE is possibly even worse. It's not only abysmal, it's really boring as well, and has way too much M in it (same as SF). So yes, I agree, I think DAD is bad, but TWINE is worse. GE also sits pretty low in my rankings, but those two reach new depths of awfulness.

    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan era movies IMO. After seeing it I actually thought the films were going to start improving. I was soon to be disappointed!

    I pretty much agree everywhere with this post, except I really, really like Goldeneye. There could be some bias as it's my first Bond film, but I really do enjoy it. For me, Brosnan's tenure goes GE, TND, DAD, TWINE. But what can I say, I love me some Gustav Graves :P
    GE is in my top 10 for sure.


    I'm with you on ranking @NickTwentyTwo.

    GE is easily top 10 for me (it's the charismatic crazy performances from the supporting cast I love along with the class that oozes out of the film- similar to SF). TND is 2nd but some way down the list (I find it too TSWLM/YOLT/MR in style but not as good - although the basic premise/idea of the media baron is interesting). DAD is cartoon-like entertaining (but I don't see it as a Bond film but rather more of an entertaining parody). For me, TWINE cannot find a whole deep enough to be flushed down. A disgrace to the legacy imho.

    Steve Jobs Elliott Carver was an inspired villain, I thought, too. The media baron starting WWIII for exclusive news coverage was a fantastic take on the megalomania of Bond villany.

    I can't remember if I read it here or was talking about it with a friend, but it would have been a much more fitting end to TND if, instead of being killed, Carver was captured and defamed, and had to see his name and reputation destroyed in his very own newspapers... would have driven him mad. Still though, getting eaten by his drill was pretty dramatic (and traumatic to my young mind on my first viewings!)
  • Posts: 11,119
    Isn't it great how much discussion "Skyfall" evokes :-)?

    It's an element of movies that turned me into a movie geek in the first place.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    Very much so! I prefer reading the discourse when I can, rather than participating in it, as I'm not as articulate as some of the other members here :)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Isn't it great how much discussion "Skyfall" evokes :-)?

    It's an element of movies that turned me into a movie geek in the first place.

    100% agree. And this a reason why (as I've said before) I prefer Skyfall to a film like TWINE. While I'm not a fan of either of them, SF is so much more ambitious. It's an interesting film to discuss, even if I don't like it as a Bond movie!
  • Posts: 7,653
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Next CR 1967 will be considered better! Ha ha ha.

    Its soundtrack most certainly is.... ;)
  • Posts: 1,394
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    SF is at least well acted and competently made technically.

    True but DAD is at least fun to watch and is not meant to be taken seriously.

    Said it before but i will say it again, Skyfall thinks its a realistic, thought provoking spy film, but is so badly written and unrealistic that it comes off as silly and pretentious.

  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    SF is at least well acted and competently made technically.

    True but DAD is at least fun to watch and is not meant to be taken seriously.

    Said it before but i will say it again, Skyfall thinks its a realistic, thought provoking spy film, but is so badly written and unrealistic that it comes off as silly and pretentious.

    I think that sums it up quite well in terms of SF.
  • Posts: 11,119
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    SF is at least well acted and competently made technically.

    True but DAD is at least fun to watch and is not meant to be taken seriously.

    Said it before but i will say it again, Skyfall thinks its a realistic, thought provoking spy film, but is so badly written and unrealistic that it comes off as silly and pretentious.

    Opinions. Solely opinions. And it's quite a badly-argumented opinion if I may say so :-). If you think DAD is more fun to watch than SF I'm the first one to say: With so many films in one franchise (23) it's only logical that Bond-fans are discussing more heavily between each other than, let's say, Mission: Impossible-fans.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    DAD is an utter painful experience as is all of the Brosnan era, I don't watch SF and cringe or any of the Craig films and feel embarrassed.

    I don't think SF thinks it's anything else but a Bond film, the reception to this film just gets the haters so lathered up they claim everyone who likes it proclaims it's a masterpiece, its far from that but it's certainly no where as bad as it's detractors are inferring in this thread.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Shardlake wrote: »
    DAD is an utter painful experience as is all of the Brosnan era, I don't watch SF and cringe or any of the Craig films and feel embarrassed.

    I don't think SF thinks it's anything else but a Bond film, the reception to this film just gets the haters so lathered up they claim everyone who likes it proclaims it's a masterpiece, its far from that but it's certainly no where as bad as it's detractors are inferring in this thread.

    =D>
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Shardlake wrote: »
    DAD is an utter painful experience as is all of the Brosnan era, I don't watch SF and cringe or any of the Craig films and feel embarrassed.

    I don't think SF thinks it's anything else but a Bond film, the reception to this film just gets the haters so lathered up they claim everyone who likes it proclaims it's a masterpiece, its far from that but it's certainly no where as bad as it's detractors are inferring in this thread.

    I see it the other way around. Most of the so-called 'haters' never said it was the worst Bond film ever. We were mainly pointing out that it wasn't the masterpiece that so many were claiming on 2012. I think what's happened since is that everyone has calmed down, rewatched SF a few times, and come to a more balanced view. I still don't think it's a very good Bond movie, but I'm more than happy to admit it's a much 'better made' film than DAD.

    I don't particularly have any desire to rewatch either of them though.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Getafix wrote: »
    I don't particularly have any desire to rewatch either of them though.
    I'm kinda short on time recently, so watching SF or DAD is not high on my list right now.
    My next watch will be either DN or QOS.
Sign In or Register to comment.