"Did i overcomplicate the plot ?" - Skyfall Appreciation & Discussion

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    "It's all a matter of perspective."

    I'll say this: I hope the gun barrel remains at the direct beginning of every Bond film from here on out. My indifference won't be affected either way, and those who nearly hemorrhage at the thought of it not being exactly where they think it should be won't have to be taken to the hospital just ten seconds into the film to stop their brain from bleeding.

    Such a frenzied fuss.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    "It's all a matter of perspective."

    I'll say this: I hope the gun barrel remains at the direct beginning of every Bond film from here on out. My indifference won't be affected either way, and those who nearly hemorrhage at the thought of it not being exactly where they think it should be won't have to be taken to the hospital just ten seconds into the film to stop their brain from bleeding.

    Such a frenzied fuss.

    First they came for the GB, and I did not speak out because I was indifferent to the GB.

    Then they came for the title sequence and I did not speak out because I was indifferent to the title sequence.

    Then they came for Blofeld and made him Bond's stepbrother and I did not speak out because I was indifferent to Fleming's characters being pissed on.

    Then they came for the series — and there was nothing left to be indifferent about.


    When we end up with Disney running the show and they foist on us a black, female, gay Bond I'm sure they'll put statues up honouring all those guys who sat back and shrugged with indifference as they watched it all unfold.



  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Technically a gunbarrel sequence is 20 seconds based on the music ques I have. ;)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    "It's all a matter of perspective."

    I'll say this: I hope the gun barrel remains at the direct beginning of every Bond film from here on out. My indifference won't be affected either way, and those who nearly hemorrhage at the thought of it not being exactly where they think it should be won't have to be taken to the hospital just ten seconds into the film to stop their brain from bleeding.

    Such a frenzied fuss.

    First they came for the GB, and I did not speak out because I was indifferent to the GB.

    Then they came for the title sequence and I did not speak out because I was indifferent to the title sequence.

    Then they came for Blofeld and made him Bond's stepbrother and I did not speak out because I was indifferent to Fleming's characters being pissed on.

    Then they came for the series — and there was nothing left to be indifferent about.


    When we end up with Disney running the show and they foist on us a black, female, gay Bond I'm sure they'll put statues up honouring all those guys who sat back and shrugged with indifference as they watched it all unfold.

    I will always speak up for the titles and characters, Wiz, don't worry, seeing as they have an actual function to these movies. ;)
  • @TheWizardOfIce I remember reading that Mcclory actually wanted the gunbarrel at the start of NSNA but EON wouldn't let him. So even he understood what a great opening it was.

    I agree with @RC7 in that I find it astounding that fans can just dismiss the gunbarrel. It's a cool iconic opening and it's become a vital part of the whole Bond experience imo.

    The main point of confusion for me is, is it worth all the fuss? The only time where a twist on the gunbarrel has had a positive reception is CR. Apart from that every single instance of it has been panned by fans. The CGI bullet, the crap in every single way QoS one, the misjudged "this is what we get for the 50th anniversary" SF effort and SP's "the gunbarrel is back, great design, great pose, haha fooled you here's a pretentious quote because I just couldn't resist fucking with it one more time" have all had a mixed reaction at best.

    No it's not going to be a talking point in reviews or anything but at the same time, if noone really likes it, what's the point in doing it? The most positive thing anyone has to say about the last three gunbarrels is that they don't mind or don't care. So how about they go back to trying to please those of us who do care about it.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    A Bond movie without a gunbarrel is weird to me. The thing that always pumps me for a Bond movie is getting a gunbarrel with brand new arrangement of the Bond theme blaring at me to get me excited for this adventure. Without it, It loses some of it's magic.
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2016 Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    You can't just rate different parts of a film the same with milquetoast logic, as they have different functions. Some feel that the gun barrel gets them in the mood for a Bond film (though they should already be in that mindset already if they're in the theater), and that's fine, though on the whole, if it's missing not much function at all is lost.

    The opening titles (not the closing titles, by the way) are always different (unlike the minor changes that happen with a gun barrel), and the variety of design we've seen over the years make these sections of a film a viable part of the movies into the modern age. You see motifs of the film set up, hints at what is to come, and enjoy a new song that all come together to prepare the stage behind the curtain before a Bond film begins in earnest following the PTS, which the opening titles give breathing room and anticipation to.

    How a blink and you miss it piece (no matter how traditional it is) gets viewed as more viable than a sequence that is always creatively different in design, sound and atmosphere is beyond me.

    I just don't get the thinking behind any of this.

    I don't think anyone was suggesting the GB is more viable than the titles. They are both equally important. Shifting the GB to the end is a piss take. The fact you refer to it as 'blink and you'll miss it', is disturbing. If graphic design were listed, it would be Grade 1. How any fan can so easily dismiss it is, to me, insane.

    It is a blink and you miss it moment, though. I'm not being dismissive, that's just what it basically is. If a viewer is sitting in the movie theater, waiting for the picture to start, then decides to take a bit of popcorn and follow that up with a sip of their drink, they would miss most or all of the gun barrel. It just doesn't add as much to the film as many want to argue it does, that's all. These defenses are driven by tradition and nostalgia.

    The DB5 is worthy, as some were questioning it, because cars in films can become like characters themselves, and are centerpieces in great sequences of drama, action, thrills, etc, and can charactered the man or woman that drives the vehicle as well, as is the case with Bond. The DB5 has appeal because it is such a recognizable and iconic character in the movies. It doesn't just show up to say, "look at me!" It's a viable part of the action when introduced, and has a function beyond a quick visual to the films that adds layers and resonance to what is on the screen, the action it takes part in and who Bond is at its driver.

    I respect the tradition of the gun barrel and I get the love for it, I do, but if one thing from the Bond formula had to go, it would be it for me, because to me, it offers the least.

    This is bollocks, mate. The reason it turns up is precisely to say 'look at me', hence why it was put to bed for 30 years, when they weren't blinded by nostalgia. The idea that the DB5 is more 'worthy' than the GB is ludicrous.
    Murdock wrote: »
    A Bond movie without a gunbarrel is weird to me. The thing that always pumps me for a Bond movie is getting a gunbarrel with brand new arrangement of the Bond theme blaring at me to get me excited for this adventure. Without it, It loses some of it's magic.

    This. It's a bit of cinematic magic.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    A Bond movie without a gunbarrel is weird to me. The thing that always pumps me for a Bond movie is getting a gunbarrel with brand new arrangement of the Bond theme blaring at me to get me excited for this adventure. Without it, It loses some of it's magic.
    Normally I would agree with you, but I've not been all that impressed with the gunbarrel since GE, where Serra delivered a super interpretation of the legendary intro.

    Craig's walk and shoot is not to my liking. I much prefer his CR toilet GB and the shadow intro in SF to his SP traditional GB to be honest.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Toying with the gun-barrel was and is inexcusable. I will never, never forgive this.
    Even DAD's gun-barrel is infinitely better than the crap we are forced through in CR, QOS and SF.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Watch out, @bondjames, I have the feeling we're both walking on cracking ice here.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    It seems that way @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I'm willing to concede the point. No big deal to me either way if it's there or not. I've really liked all the Craig film intros, GB or not.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    It seems that way @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I'm willing to concede the point. No big deal to me either way if it's there or not. I've really liked all the Craig film intros, GB or not.

    Same, which is why I'd say to keep it. We aren't affected either way, and everyone else will be happy.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    A Bond movie without a gunbarrel is weird to me. The thing that always pumps me for a Bond movie is getting a gunbarrel with brand new arrangement of the Bond theme blaring at me to get me excited for this adventure. Without it, It loses some of it's magic.
    Normally I would agree with you, but I've not been all that impressed with the gunbarrel since GE, where Serra delivered a super interpretation of the legendary intro.

    Craig's walk and shoot is not to my liking. I much prefer his CR toilet GB and the shadow intro in SF to his SP traditional GB to be honest.

    Agree entirely.

    The positioning of the GB and its execution are two entirely different debates.

    As the musical cue is integral to the whole GB experience, personally I find that the last GB that has not been flawed in some way is TLD (I'm not counting CR - As others have said it gets a free pass, although for the record Craig's turn and fire is superb and the music sensational):

    LTK - Just noise for the first half until the Bond theme finally kicks in.
    GE - Godwaful dirge. The Bond theme can be played on a guitar or by an orchestra but not by a guy banging a pan with a wooden spoon.
    TND - That particular cue just doesnt cut the mustard for me.
    TWINE - See TND.
    DAD - Better music but the CGI bullet is a faux pas.
    QOS - Worst of the lot. Both the GB design and Craig's turn and walk appalling. At least the music is OK.
    SF - Slightly better than QOS. But not much.
    SP - Better design, music reasonable but Craig once again is poor (what happened to the naturalness of CR? Ever since hes been like the f**king Terminator) and the less said about 'The Dead Are Alive' the better.
    Toying with the gun-barrel was and is inexcusable. I will never, never forgive this.
    Even DAD's gun-barrel is infinitely better than the crap we are forced through in CR, QOS, SF and SP.

    Fixed but otherwise I agree. DAD not half has bad as the last 3 - Great barrel design, Brozza nails the walk and quite YOLT-esque music. Just a shame about the bullet.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2016 Posts: 4,043
    The way the GB is incorporated into the CR title sequence is genius and for me Kleinman's finest work, it makes perfect sense to do it this way.

    Although trying to justify why it's not there at the beginning of the next 2 films is not easy apart from Forster & Mendes letting artistic overrride the way the film are supposed to start.

    Yes SPECTRE got one but we needed some pretentious quote before the film actually started. If they'd gone with the iris opening up to the day of dead sequence it would have looked stunning.

    That being said it's like bitching about the god awful theme, SPECTRE got the theme it deserved if it had received a killer theme and then been shackled to that mess of a film it would have made it all that more infuriating. At least the worst film of the era has the worst theme and score of the era, I take some comfort in that at least.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    The gunbarrel design for CR is criminally overrated. It looks like a cartoon. That said, the placement is indeed perfect.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    It's a shame they didn't use the Binder GB design for CR like the trailer used.

    gunbarrel.jpg
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    jake24 wrote: »
    The gunbarrel design for CR is criminally overrated. It looks like a cartoon. That said, the placement is indeed perfect.

    +1

    I could have lived with its placing, it does make sense as he starts to be 007 then. But as you said it looks bad.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The CR gun barrel had to be stylized to blend with the coming opening titles, otherwise it would have looked strange if it was designed another way, like Binder's, for example.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Not exactly. They could have used the SP one as it's quite stylized and fit nicely into the playing card motif.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    jake24 wrote: »
    The gunbarrel design for CR is criminally overrated. It looks like a cartoon.

    Let's not even start on the blood.



  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited October 2016 Posts: 4,582
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The PTS in SF knocks SP into a cocked hat, no need for dodgy overblown CGI apart from that ill advised Grand Bazaar bike chase bit.

    SF though opens brilliantly, ok not having the GB is not ideal and Mendes excuse is wearing a little thin but that opening PTS will be one of the iconic moments. I've given Sam plenty flak for SP but his Russian doll approach with the PTS is a stroke of genius and I find the PTS utterly thrilling.

    VW product placement granted but Bond didn't all of a sudden start this with the Craig era they've been doing it for decades, it's not like the Craig era kicked all this off.

    CR overall is a better film and Craig has more to get his teeth into and to prove which is why from a dramatic and character point of view will most likely be his best work in the series, despite him not actually being Bond full on till the closing moment with that superb sign off but it has its issues.

    I can't see anything wrong with Molloka chase, that is the crowning achievement of the Craig era when it comes to action, no action sequence in Craig's time matches it from the moment he's spotted him and starts the pursuit to the point he shoots him and blows up the building as a diversion to get away.

    The gulf between this sequence and the generic 90's action guff we got with Pierce is vast but that Miami sequence is not good at all.

    It works as way to progress the plot but couldn't they have delivered something better than warmed over version of one of the most thrilling sequences committed to celluloid? I am of course referring to the Raiders truck chase.

    The dialogue while at times some of the best of the series is cringeworthy on occasion, Omega plugging and of course my little finger so no it's not perfect but as a whole it's an incredibly strong film and the Venice sequence that seems to be so devisive is still the best climax of the Craig era and I'd argue one of the best of the series.

    CR was the first time since OHMSS when we got an actual adaptation of a Fleming novel that bore a resemblance, rather than just taking the title then fashioning a story around like so many of the entries did with the exception of some of the earlier films notably OHMSS.

    I think that is why some judge it quite severely because we are messing with the holy grail for some of Fleming's writing. Anyone expecting a straight adaptation and ending the film with Vesper commiting suicide off camera was off their rocker.

    The venice sequence was something I'd never seen done before, it was like the parkour chase at the beginning something where it felt Bond was doing something unique and it's great the film is bookended like this.

    Yes some of the filling in between is questionable but the PTS is my favourite of the series full stop.

    Getting back to SF yes the it has holes but everything up to Silva being bought to London is going fine for me, Silva yes can't help but echo the Joker in his scheme and getaway and Mendes is clearly influenced by Nolan but for me it's not a problem.

    The dumb dialogue of Q claiming Silva had planned this does the film a disservice but when you compare to some the crimes in it's follow up to me it's mild at least this doesn't shat all over the series present and before it's just a chink in the plot in comparrison.

    Though Mendes, Craig, cast and crew carry it all off with such confidence, some hate the Tennison moment but it still puts hairs on the back of my neck. I really wish though Arnold had scored this, I think it might have been his finest moment coming off the back of his extremely promising QOS score.

    Also the Straw Dog/Home Alone climax in Scotland for me is thrilling and moving, no DC cracking that deep water joke should have been dropped but the way Silva is dispatched and the look on his face is entirely in keeping with his character. Logan comes in for plenty flak but the pay off Silva's rat speech in his iconic intro, I love it.

    It's contemporary but all so echoes back to the great memorable moments from the series, like a riff on Goldfinger's Lazer table and Connery hitting it out the park along with Frobe (despite being dubbed).

    The way we return to it and Craig's last words "last rat standing" just sums up their relationship perfectly.

    No a joke before Craig's and Dench's final moment was ill advised but both do such fine work here that it can almost be forgiven.

    CR is a Bond fans film but SF was a Bond film for everyone and this I think maybe the rub with some. Yes it was released on the 50th and we had the London Olympics with DC involved but if it had been SPECTRE I certainly don't think that film would have struck the cord that SF did.

    Adele's theme had its role to play, the global smash it was, although Newman's score has it's moments, something more celebratory would have made all the difference. So with some asides and an acknowledgement that it isn't perfect or a masterpeice by any stretch of the imagination, it did the anniversary proud.

    I agree with you: that line is a problem on many levels. I have always dismissed it, because in the museum scene, Q basically demonstrates how little he knows about being out in the field. So what he says here has to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't believe it for a moment.

    Instead, the line works as a form of fear and a response to fear. Remember what Severine says, "What do you know about fear?"

    SF is the deepest, richest film in the series, by a long shot. This is just one example. On the island, Silva managed to get the entire population to evacuate (to act on fear) based on mere suggestion. He does the same thing to MI6 (and, ironically, the audience) in this scene.
  • CR's gunbarrel on its own? Fine. But in retrospect, it set the most awful, awful precedent. SF at least paid homage to the gunbarrel in a unique way to begin the film, I will give that a pass.

    But the opening of QOS is just all, all wrong. I hate it intensely. For God's sake it's an Aston Martin advertisement. Why Forster, why????!!!!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    CR's gunbarrel on its own? Fine. But in retrospect, it set the most awful, awful precedent. SF at least paid homage to the gunbarrel in a unique way to begin the film, I will give that a pass.

    But the opening of QOS is just all, all wrong. I hate it intensely. For God's sake it's an Aston Martin advertisement. Why Forster, why????!!!!

    QoS is an Aston Martin advertisement as much as TSWLM is a Lotus one. It's an action sequence and car chase, what do you expect? You need a car for that, and an Aston is heavily associated with the cinematic Bond.

    It's like calling every shootout action sequence a commercial for Walthers or every time Bond is in a suit, it's just a Tom Ford commercial.
  • CR's gunbarrel on its own? Fine. But in retrospect, it set the most awful, awful precedent. SF at least paid homage to the gunbarrel in a unique way to begin the film, I will give that a pass.

    But the opening of QOS is just all, all wrong. I hate it intensely. For God's sake it's an Aston Martin advertisement. Why Forster, why????!!!!

    QoS is an Aston Martin advertisement as much as TSWLM is a Lotus one. It's an action sequence and car chase, what do you expect? You need a car for that, and an Aston is heavily associated with the cinematic Bond.

    It's like calling every shootout action sequence a commercial for Walthers or every time Bond is in a suit, it's just a Tom Ford commercial.

    I'm not saying Bond hasn't resorted to product placement before. But consider the lighting, the quick shots of the car, etc. It is just like an advertisement you might see on TV. It is NOT like calling every shootout a Walther commercial. Nevertheless that is not the point - the point is that it is an improper way to begin a Bond movie, and indeed the most improper way of beginning one we have seen.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    the point is that it is an improper way to begin a Bond movie, and indeed the most improper way of beginning one we have seen.

    ?

    If you're saying that the GB should have started us off and then opened on the camera flying over the lake then fair enough.

    I agree it's improper to start a Bond without the GB. Chastising the fact they feature shots of an Aston though is as bizarre as it is stupid. Explain how you are supposed to film a car chase without showing footage of the cars involved?
  • the point is that it is an improper way to begin a Bond movie, and indeed the most improper way of beginning one we have seen.

    ?

    If you're saying that the GB should have started us off and then opened on the camera flying over the lake then fair enough.

    I agree it's improper to start a Bond without the GB. Chastising the fact they feature shots of an Aston though is as bizarre as it is stupid. Explain how you are supposed to film a car chase without showing footage of the cars involved?

    I mean the first point. The introduction to and the resulting car chase are definitely not to my liking but I mean I could live with it if they put the gunbarrel at the beginning.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Campbell started it
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Campbell started it
    Agreed. He also is guilty of bringing back the DB5 in GE (although magnificently in that instance).
  • Posts: 11,425
    Magnificently in GE? How was it magnificent? That car chase is one of the worst in the entire series.

    I thought the way he did it in CR was better. Much better.

    Having said all this, I'm so damn sick of the DB5. Mendes has utterly flogged it to death now.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited October 2016 Posts: 45,489
    I can t believe anyone actually likes the DAD gunbarrel. It s as daft as the rest of the film.
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