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The big debate is the plot of SF in comparison to SP. To me, there is no comparison. SF is the superior film in almost every respect, except for the PTS. In fact, the vanilla feel of the last act of SP has only solidified for me just how great a film SF is. There are layers to SF that don't exist in SP--and that is fine. But in a discussion of plot, SF goes deeper than any Bond film before. Those who have found the plot (and Silva's plan) too convenient or contrived are being just as manipulated as MI6. The film is pure metafiction.
Let me explain.
What did Severine warn Bond about Silva: "What do you know about fear?" And when Bond says, "All there is," she responds, "Not like this. Not like him." What fear are we talking about? Silva isn't physically imposing, like Hinx (talk about fear). No...instead, it's his ability to get people to freak out and act irrationally. This is why the abandoned island plays such an important role. Silva was able to get people so afraid that they left their belongings.
Same with Silva's "plan." Critics of SF don't realize that they're being conned. Silva didn't have a damn thing "planned out" as Q so "expertly" concluded. No, what he did was make everyone think he did...in order to overreact. Which they did. And so did the audience. At one point, Bond says of Silva, "It's what he's planning next that has me worried." INDEED!!!! Notice the concern/fear isn't what Silva is actually doing; it's the perception of what he MIGHT be doing. That is how fear operates.
It's bloody brilliant!
The one convenience in SF is that once it's established that someone can do whatever he wants with a "point" and a "click," then anything becomes possible, including the placement of explosives in a subway and flying a military helicopter into the Scottish countryside. It also means that Silva never needs to make "long range plans." There is no need for the "long game" when technology makes the short game possible--and more devastating.
Very good points. Another frequent complaint is that M died because of Bond's stupidity - taking an elderly woman, head of MI6, to a deserted house in the middle of nowhere, knowing Silva and his men would come after them armed to the teeth. But that is part of a repeated theme.
At the beginning of the movie, M says "take the shot" - Bond's life is seen as expendable to M. It is more important than the mission. The stakes are higher than the life of an agent.
When Bond meets Silva, Silva tells Bond that M had sent him (Bond) when he was not ready and had failed his tests, knowing he would likely die, indicating again that M saw Bond as expendable.
When Silva is captured, he says that he did not talk when tortured, but complains that M had betrayed him - his life was expendable.
As we later learn, M's own life is also seen as expendable if it means a chance to lure Silva and kill him.
What bothers me about the 'bloody shot' is that asking MP (a rooky field agent) to shoot is extremely high risk. Meanwhile, one of her top agents (Bond) is actually engaging the enemy and well placed to take out his target and retrieve the disk. So why does M even need to take the risk? Oh, because she doesn't trust Bond, again... After begging for him to come back at the end of QOS.
Ditto, the life of an agent and the life of M are not of the same value to MI6. It's moronic that Bond is directly responsible for M's death and that he's then welcomed back a conquering hero at MI6.
The defence of Silva's plan above as actually being a deliberate non-plan is typical of the weird mental hoops that SF defenders somehow find themselves having to jump through to explain how great the plot is. Don't bother - it doesn't convince any one.
The best defence of SF is that you liked it, regardless of the plot incoherence and General stupidity of the story.
I agree that there is no need or expectation for a highly convoluted plot. But my issue with SF is not the complexity of the plot. It's that the plot and story are a total mess. And that's after a four year gap between movies - not good enough.
I agree that I had to hop through a weird mental hoop to justify Bond deliberately putting M in danger. He could have easily dropped her off on a motel on the way to Skyfall.
This is the 30 second scene they should have had. when picking up the Aston Martin, that would clear Bond of willfully and recklessly endangering M.
Bond: You can stay here.
M: In this garage?
Bond: Until this is over. There's an apartment upstairs.
M: No Bond, I am coming with you.
Bond: I am sorry can't let you do that.
M: We are all expendable, Bond. Silva wants me, not you. You do as I bloody well tell you.
Huh? Was it really that big of a mental hoop? Bond new Silva wanted M. Bond wanted to get Silva so he used M as the bait, which he told M he was doing. M agreed because she felt responsible for the deaths of many people at the hands of Silva; "Just us, nobody else, no one else dies because of me."
Bond felt fine putting M in danger because it was for the sake of the mission, they're both people of integrity with military backgrounds of some form or another, he knew M would agree it's what they had to do to stop Silva.
If he dropped her off at a hotel/the garage, why on earth would Silva have gone to Skyfall?
That was the point of the breadcrumbs; hidden so they were invisible to everyone except Silva, who'd assume Bond was taking M away to hide in a cabin, when he was instead laying his rat trap with M as the cheese.
Bond is not, in literally any way, directly responsible for M's death. Proximate Cause for M's death follows this order: Silva's Henchman, Silva, M, Bond.
It's still a moronic thing to do. And it's more moronic that Bond does get M killed and yet is hailed a hero for his efforts.
What rat trap was in Bond's plan? Bond did not know when Silva would be coming. He didn't know if he would arrive before they made the home-made bombs. He didn't know he would just happen to have access to gas cylinders, ready to blow up when the helicopter was overhead or whether there was dynamite or glass or anything there. He didn't know if Silva would have ten men or a hundred, one helicopter or four. He knew nothing and took a geriatric woman with him. It was a terrible plan.
It would have been better if Bond knew that Silva was able to track M by her phone. He goes to a gas station and puts the phone on a truck and swaps cars, leaving his own car keys in the Aston with the engine running and watching it get stolen, and telling M to leg it through some side streets to go to a safe place. This is just one alternative example of many of how Bond should have behaved.
Anyone else think Gaga's Grammy 'look' was disturbingly close to our very own Silva, sans the blonde locks?
:))
I'm seriously thinking due to what was riding on SP and how spectacularly they dropped the ball this is one of the biggest disappointments of the series.
Skyfall had something that is totally lacking in SPECTRE, it just feels devoid of tension and like it's going through the motions for the most of the time.
The PTS is good but the SF one is better and that is the best it has to offer in action stakes, it's dialogue scenes aren't as good as SF's.
Skyfall is just more compelling, if being by the numbers and throwing all the cliches at the screen and having 2 consecutively tension free climaxes is your idea of a return to form then you are welcome to it. I thought we left this garbage behind with the Brosnan era, while it's nowhere as awful as DAD it's definitely the equivalent of the Craig era.
I do think the Honest Trailer is a tad more viscous than I would be but it's not far off the mark, I'm not sure I'd say Craig looks bored all through it but it is his worst performance of the series. Some of the lame one liners he delivers as if he couldn't give a sh*t, that "doesn't time fly" delivery has all the enthusiasm of a wet fish.
I'm one of those that puts Skyfall at the top and CR closely following but I never dreamed that SPECTRE would be so lacklustre. Compare those lame endings to the Deakin's photographed explosive and thrilling Scottish climax, there is no comparison.
I mostly agree. But I liked SP a lot, right up to the torture scene, and from there it falls apart.
No wonder he's considered one of the worlds best.
Its simply stunning.
I think SF is a really good and really well-made Bond film; regarding the way it "comes off" or was put together, I personally see comparisons to Goldfinger--for me there's a quintessential Bond Movie quality to it regarding solidity and audience expectations. But I still like CR better! In my opinion, CR is the best Craig Bond film, a classic, with less of a veneer or formula than SF--that's the way it feels to me anyway--CR seems more random and certainly raw, which to me is part of its appeal. I think SF is somewhere in my top 10 of Bond films, below CR.
SF dances with the Bond playbook and makes an impact. CR ripped apart that playbook and changed things forever, with an introduction of a Bond actor that had a rippling effect with no equal since Connery. It's no surprise it gets such consistent and passionate love, from fans both committed and casual.
But in retrospect I'll be eternally grateful and appreciative for the casting of Ben Whishaw as Q. While he has only one good scene in SF, his introduction, he is priceless and perfect in every single scene in SP.
with another actor as 007. He has great timing for comedy and his scene in SP
got a huge laugh.
Ben is happy to pop in every few years to do a few days or so of filming.
rather than recast.
I also think he's made his Q very human, I was genuinley worried for
him , in the ski lift scene in SP.