The assassination of Franz Ferdinand

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  • Posts: 7,653
    the subject is the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and the subject changes to Hitler and his times, it shows that the Great War is not too well known among many people and the knowledge available is a plenty.

    The centennial of WOI should offer plenty of discussion without dragging WOII into it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    Agreed, SaintMark, but WWI was nothing if not the prelude to WWII. The outcome of WWI directly resulted in a crippled Germany where the seeds for the rise of Fascism were planted.
  • edited July 2014 Posts: 19,339
    And the Versailles agreement to be fair was very harsh on Germany,stripping them of the Sudetenland and much more,leading them to take back what they believed was theirs,hence WWII.

    So both are linked...i could create a WWII thread if everyone wanted it.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    By all means Barry, as long as the debate remains controlled and reasonably friendly ;-)
  • edited July 2014 Posts: 19,339
    Ta very much Knackers..

    OK,to take the pressure of putting too much WWII discussion into this WWI thread and possibly re-railing it,i have created an exclusive thread for WWII here :

    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/9633/the-world-war-ii-discussion-thread.
  • Posts: 7,653
    barryt007 wrote:
    And the Versailles agreement to be fair was very harsh on Germany,stripping them of the Sudetenland and much more,leading them to take back what they believed was theirs,hence WWII.

    So both are linked...i could create a WWII thread if everyone wanted it.

    Germany wanted breathing space and there was so much of the world in the hands of various parties that they felt the need to get some of that.

    In the end the French were hellbent to take revenge on their lost war against Germany in the 1880's even if they did start it then and got their behinds kicked. So the outcome of the war being lost was another sign were the Allied forces took their cuts from the Germans and hence driving them in an impossible position. And so the war to end all wars was not ended wisely.
    And as before 1914 the world was still not in balance even if it changed the map of Europe dramatically and ended quiet a few royal dynasties as well.

    WOI, what came before and what happened during and immediately after as a result of that war warrants a lot more attention.

    The assassin of Franz Ferdinand is considered by most in Europe as a criminal, while in his homeland the man is seen as a hero who struck a blow against the Hapsburg House in a fight to regain their own nation. Even today it still is so. Which shows that even the truth in this matter is not a one sided issue and makes this war so complicated. Even in cinema & television this war warrants a lot more spotlights as this war was so different from WOII and closed the door upon an old Europe and became the birthplace of a modern Europe.
  • edited July 2014 Posts: 5,994
    A great book taking place in this period is, as I said before and will probably say again, "The Secret Generations", by John Gardner (here's a Bond connection for you). Frankly, I can't figure why this novel has not been turned into a prestige TV mini-series. If I had enough money to become a producer, that would be one of my first projects.
  • edited July 2014 Posts: 2,341
    A good book to read on the first World War is Barbara Tuchman's "The Guns of August" which covers basically the first month of the Great War.

    One German commander felt that Russians/Slavs were subhuman and he could not bear the thought of "filthy Slavs setting foot on Prussian soil" prior to the battle of Tannenburg.

    Lots of Hitler's racial attitudes were not new among Germanic people.
    I digress , i do want to keep this topic on World War I.

    A footnote: Gavrilo Princip, the assassin of the Archduke died of TB in an Austrian prison priot to the end of the war.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    A bit late i know, but I have moved this to General Discussion as it isn't Bond News.

    Also, it can sit with Barry's WWII thread in the same section.
  • Posts: 15,125
    NicNac wrote:
    A bit late i know, but I have moved this to General Discussion as it isn't Bond News.

    Also, it can sit with Barry's WWII thread in the same section.

    Oops my bad. I really posted this one too quickly.
  • Posts: 2,341
    Ludovico wrote:
    NicNac wrote:
    A bit late i know, but I have moved this to General Discussion as it isn't Bond News.

    Also, it can sit with Barry's WWII thread in the same section.

    Oops my bad. I really posted this one too quickly.

    No need to apologize Bro! I've done the same thing. Hit the post button without checking the "category" box. :\">
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2014 Posts: 18,281
    On the topic of the ever-present peaceful majority and Christians in evil regimes and their irrelevance to what horrific crimes were committed in their name, please see the following AMAZING video and share with your friends and family. The very eloquent and knowledgeable woman (Brigitte Gabriel) here says in this video what I was trying to say above but much better than I ever could. She may overegg the pudding a tad with the Muslim extremists bit but the rest is sound:

  • edited July 2014 Posts: 3,236
    Ludovico wrote:
    In private, Hitler repeatedly admitted to not being a Christian at all and only using it for political gain. While it's horrific that he was able to use Christianity successfully to support the Nazi party, there is the example of Christians of all stripes opposing him, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Maximillian Kolbe, and Popes Pius XI and XII.

    In any event, I find it fascinating that all things associated with the Nazi Party have become socially unacceptable (his name, his moustache, the Swastika, and so on), but not so with other dictators, like Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot.

    Did he admit he was not? I don't think there is evidence of this. Anticlerical, yes, sometimes, but he never outright rejected his Catholicism. I am not saying some Christians did not oppose him of course (and said Christian did oppose him because of their faith) but Nazi Germany was not a Godless country. Neither was Mussolini's fascist Italy, even though Mussolini was an atheist.

    As for pope Pïus XII's attitude towards Germany and the whole World War II, his legacy is, to say the least, highly controversial.

    But again, this is an entirely different debate. I guess one has to speak of World War 2 when both war are interrelated in many ways.

    In private, Hitler repeatedly showed his hostility toward, and contempt for, Christianity and Catholicism. His confidantes, including Goebbels, Bormann, and Speer, recorded many comments expressing these beliefs, most of which are listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Hitler_to_confidants. While he was certainly not an atheist, and made use of Christianity in his public addresses, to call Hitler a Christian in any meaningful sense is false.

    And if Hitler was blessed by the churches on a weekly basis, it was without the approval of the Vatican, who released Mit Brennender Sorge in 1937 and had it read on Palm Sunday from every pulpit in Germany. More information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge
  • edited July 2014 Posts: 4,622
    From a religious perspective, Hitler was corrupted by the seduction of evil. Its that simple. We all are to some extent, but Hitler seems to have gone full-hog and embraced occultist practises. Thule Society etc.

    "All the supposed abominations, the skeletons and death’s head, the coffins and the mysteries, are mere bogeys for children. But there is one dangerous element and that is the element I have copied from them. They form a sort of priestly nobility. They have developed an esoteric doctrine more merely formulated, but imparted through the symbols and mysteries in degrees of initiation. The hierarchical organization and the initiation through symbolic rites, that is to say, without bothering the brain by working on the imagination through magic and the symbols of a cult, all this has a dangerous element, and the element I have taken over. Don’t you see that our party must be of this character...? An Order, the hierarchical Order of a secular priesthood."

    -Adolf Hitler
    praising Freemasonry


    Hitler I don't think was religious, not even much on the occult side.
    At the very least he sure didn't worship Christ.
    But I am not even sure he took the occult seriously either, rather he may have, as the above passage seems to suggest, found its trappings and rituals to be conducive to the fashioning of a "hierarchical Order of a secular priesthood."

  • Posts: 7,653
    @timmer & @soundofsinners there is a thread dedicated to WOII while this one is not. So take that Austrian coperal and stick him there, please!!!!
  • Posts: 15,125
    SaintMark wrote:
    @timmer & @soundofsinners there is a thread dedicated to WOII while this one is not. So take that Austrian coperal and stick him there, please!!!!

    I was about to say the same thing, so thanks.
  • SaintMark wrote:
    @timmer & @soundofthesinners there is a thread dedicated to WOII while this one is not. So take that Austrian coperal and stick him there, please!!!!

    Very well. Back to the topic at hand: What would Eastern Europe and central Africa look like had Germany won? They had ambitious plans to divide much of the former Russian Empire and take France, England, and Belgium's colonies to form Mitteleuropa and Mittelafrika.
  • edited July 2014 Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote:
    @timmer & @soundofthesinners there is a thread dedicated to WOII while this one is not. So take that Austrian coperal and stick him there, please!!!!

    Very well. Back to the topic at hand: What would Eastern Europe and central Africa look like had Germany won? They had ambitious plans to divide much of the former Russian Empire and take France, England, and Belgium's colonies to form Mitteleuropa and Mittelafrika.

    they wanted "Lebernsraum" and had visions of grandeur, but if they would have won I doubt that there would have been anything the rest of the world would have been able to change anything about it. And depending on their treatment of the various nations they would have kept the civil obedience to a limit. The US at that time was small potatoes and would not have been capable to force a difference. The WWII would not have happened and decolonization of the various properties of the nations would not have happened or much later. It would have perhaps been a far more stable world than the one we got after 1919.
  • Posts: 2,341
    A good question would be what if Germany had won The First World War? Kaiser Wilhelm no more wanted a global war than anyone else at the time. they all just got sucked into it.

    The old decadent monarchies (Russia, Austria-Hungary, The Ottoman Empire) were all their way out anyway, the war just hastened their downfalls.

    With all the bloodshed especially on the Western Front, one wonders why both sides did nto want to open peace negotiations in 1917. Each of the belligerants felt that they had paid such a price in bloodshed they could not justify the deaths of so many of their young men short of total victory.
    Rational thinking should have forced them all to the bargaining table but no one was thinking rational anymore since August 1914.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    WW1 hastened the fall of the empires, and the rise of the nation states. Probably the most important consequence of it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    WW1 hastened the fall of the empires, and the rise of the nation states. Probably the most important consequence of it.

    Well, that's certainly true and therein (extreme nationalism) lay the seeds of the Second World War which several commentators predicted in another twenty years - they were wrong - by ten months.
  • Posts: 2,341
    One has to wonder after the war just what the hell all the fuss and bloodshed was about. I don't think anyone really could remember or recall just what their aims were in the war.
    France wanted to regain the lost provinces of Alsaac and Lorraine but I just can't figure out what the Russians, Germans, Britian all wanted when they dove into the war in the first place.

    Talk about failed Statesmen.
    What a tragedy and waste.
  • Posts: 7,653
    The Germans wanted breathing-space, as a united state they existed only recently and came last in the race for colonies. And they felt that the space they needed was taken away from inferior nations.
    So they wanted to once again take away territory from both the French & Russians. They actually wanted no conflict with the British empire but the Brits did not want to discuss the sovereignty and neutrality of Belgium as guaranteed by the British. The Germans decided that to be a personal insult. Through the person of the Kaiser who was a full cousin of the Tsar of Russia and the King of England.
  • Posts: 2,341
    I always thought that was so interesting how the royal houses of Europe were so intertwined.
    Kaiser Wilhelm was first cousin to King George, he was a distant cousin to Nicholas II but Nicky's wife Alexandra was a first cousin to George and Wilhelm. George was first cousin to both Nicholas and Alexandra. No wonder royalty is kinda "off" all that in breeding.
    The Greek King (brother in law) to Wilhelm was eventually overthrown because his subjects questioned his loyalties during the war. :))
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The royalties of Europe are still intertwined. They gave up first cousin marriage only a generation ago.

    Nothing wrong with it, of course, lots of sexy cousins.

    But the dylsexia is an unfornunate side effect...
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    The royalties of Europe are still intertwined. They gave up first cousin marriage only a generation ago.

    Nothing wrong with it, of course, lots of sexy cousins.

    But the dylsexia is an unfornunate side effect...

    And not to mention haemophilia!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote:
    The royalties of Europe are still intertwined. They gave up first cousin marriage only a generation ago.

    Nothing wrong with it, of course, lots of sexy cousins.

    But the dylsexia is an unfornunate side effect...

    And not to mention haemophilia!

    They cannot even read that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    My country, Belgium, must be the most bizarre of all. We have a Dutch speaking North, a French speaking South, and Germany was forced to make up for all the suffering it brought to us by adding a German speaking East section. Three languages, in a country no bigger than a post stamp. Yet less than three decades later, Germany came back and invaded my little country once again. Silly, for we are in effect a peace-loving people. We only fight among ourselves or rather, politicians do. The North versus the South. And why? You tell me. Because we speak a different language? This often makes me ashamed of being Belgian. We only have three things to boast of:

    - chocolate
    - Belgian beer
    - me

    If Germany ever decides to invade us again, I emigrate to Japan. ;-) Or the moon.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote:
    We only have three things to boast of:

    - chocolate
    - Belgian beer
    - me

    If Germany ever decides to invade us again, I emigrate to Japan. ;-) Or the moon.

    4 a great comic book tradition
    5 some wonderful bands from all genres, but most of all the synth scene.
    6 love of good food
    7 political correctness.

    Mmm, strike the last. But the first six are something to be proud of.

    And Barco, perhaps?
  • Posts: 7,653
    DarthDimi wrote:
    We only have three things to boast of:

    - chocolate
    - Belgian beer
    - me

    If Germany ever decides to invade us again, I emigrate to Japan. ;-) Or the moon.

    4 a great comic book tradition
    5 some wonderful bands from all genres, but most of all the synth scene.
    6 love of good food
    7 political correctness.

    Mmm, strike the last. But the first six are something to be proud of.

    And Barco, perhaps?

    8 the red devils
    9 a great food culture
    10 hospitality
    11 loads of great history

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