Current geopolitical developments create even better source/plot material for future Bond films

13

Comments

  • Posts: 11,425
    Marc Forster is actually talking total nonsense. The Cold War was not very clear at all. Just read some John le Carre for a touch of moral ambiguity. The West did all sorts of utterly appalling things, like bombing the hell out of Vietnam, overthrowing democratically elected govts wherever they were slightly opposed to US foreign policy. It was about as morally ambiguous a period as you can get. I do personally think that on balance the West was on the right side of history, but the things it did to defeat Communism were often dreadful. I think that's one reason the Bond movies steer clear generally of having the Communists as the baddies - it's nearly always some shadowy crime syndicate or power crazed corporation.

    I'd argue in some ways the current conflict between the West and lunatic Islam is much more cut and dry, althhough once again, we are doing things that will make future generations ashamed.

    It's fine having contemporary events as a sort of back drop, but the last thing I want when watching Bond is to be reminded of the real world.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's fine having contemporary events as a sort of back drop, but the last thing I want when watching Bond is to be reminded of the real world.
    This! I watch movies to be transported in another world, not be reminded of how grim the world I live in is. Depending on the filmmaker, when politics is introduced, It can often get preachy to like one side over.
  • Posts: 15,123
    Getafix wrote: »
    Marc Forster is actually talking total nonsense. The Cold War was not very clear at all. Just read some John le Carre for a touch of moral ambiguity. The West did all sorts of utterly appalling things, like bombing the hell out of Vietnam, overthrowing democratically elected govts wherever they were slightly opposed to US foreign policy. It was about as morally ambiguous a period as you can get. I do personally think that on balance the West was on the right side of history, but the things it did to defeat Communism were often dreadful. I think that's one reason the Bond movies steer clear generally of having the Communists as the baddies - it's nearly always some shadowy crime syndicate or power crazed corporation.

    I'd argue in some ways the current conflict between the West and lunatic Islam is much more cut and dry, althhough once again, we are doing things that will make future generations ashamed.

    It's fine having contemporary events as a sort of back drop, but the last thing I want when watching Bond is to be reminded of the real world.

    I'd agree with this too. That said, there is a certain Manichean vision in Fleming's novels about East and West that is most definitely there and mostly absent from the movies.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Getafix wrote: »
    I do personally think that on balance the West was on the right side of history, but the things it did to defeat Communism were often dreadful. I think that's one reason the Bond movies steer clear generally of having the Communists as the baddies
    And why we can love Bond films regardless of our political beliefs or dogma.
    Bond stands for what is good, not what is left or right.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Getafix wrote: »
    Do we.....actually like it when Bond films have deeper meanings, plot themes and a more thematically multilayered approach? Not to mention a mirror to today's politics?

    What would you think the theme of Bond 24 could be?

    Personally speaking I am not that bothered. I prefer for the effort to go into a well constructed plot. SF for me focuses on themes at the expense of the basic plot and storyline. Now, if a film is both rich in terms of plot and themes, that's great, but generally the story must take priority.

    Mirroring today's politics is definitely not what Bond is about. It's escapist fantasy.

    That's a bit black-and-white no? I'd say it's a combination of escapism meets today's politics.

    I do remember this quote from Marc Forster though:

    "Because Bond plays it real, I thought the political circumstances should be real too, even though Bond shouldn't be a political film. I thought the more political I make it, the more real it feels, not just with Bolivia and what's happening in Haiti, but with all these corporations like Shell and Chevron saying they're green because it's so fashionable to be green. During the Cold War, everything was very clear, the good guys and the bad guys. Today there's much overlapping of good and bad. It isn't as morally distinct, because we all have both elements in us."

    —Marc Forster on the political landscape of the film. On top of that, I think both Martin Campbell and especially Sam Mendes have injected quite a bit of politics in Daniel Craig's films.

    That is a most brilliant quote from QoS's director there, @Gustav_Graves. Thank you for unearthing it. I'm a big fan of QoS precisely because like OHMSS it is a very different kind of Bond film than the norm.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I like QoS as we'll but most of what Forster says about the film is incoherent gibberish.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Getafix wrote: »
    most of what Forster says about the film is incoherent gibberish.
    In what way, might I ask?
  • Posts: 11,425
    For the reasons I outlined above but also all the four elements nonsense which really adds nothing
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Getafix wrote: »
    Do we.....actually like it when Bond films have deeper meanings, plot themes and a more thematically multilayered approach? Not to mention a mirror to today's politics?

    What would you think the theme of Bond 24 could be?

    Personally speaking I am not that bothered. I prefer for the effort to go into a well constructed plot. SF for me focuses on themes at the expense of the basic plot and storyline. Now, if a film is both rich in terms of plot and themes, that's great, but generally the story must take priority.

    Mirroring today's politics is definitely not what Bond is about. It's escapist fantasy.

    I mostly agree, however, I do think that the Bond films have explored political commentaries with a heightened and in many cases loosely foreboding flare, which I think they should continue doing just so long as they don't go down the cliched and potentially isolating route of the religious arena. As should be the case a good story and plot shouldn't be compromised nor neglected and as long as that's a priority, building themes, social commentaries and structures of geopolitics can more appropriately be applied.

  • Posts: 11,119
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Do we.....actually like it when Bond films have deeper meanings, plot themes and a more thematically multilayered approach? Not to mention a mirror to today's politics?

    What would you think the theme of Bond 24 could be?

    Personally speaking I am not that bothered. I prefer for the effort to go into a well constructed plot. SF for me focuses on themes at the expense of the basic plot and storyline. Now, if a film is both rich in terms of plot and themes, that's great, but generally the story must take priority.

    Mirroring today's politics is definitely not what Bond is about. It's escapist fantasy.

    I mostly agree, however, I do think that the Bond films have explored political commentaries with a heightened and in many cases loosely foreboding flare, which I think they should continue doing just so long as they don't go down the cliched and potentially isolating route of the religious arena. As should be the case a good story and plot shouldn't be compromised nor neglected and as long as that's a priority, building themes, social commentaries and structures of geopolitics can more appropriately be applied.

    In any case....continue on the road that CR, QOS and SF were on :-)
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Definitely. There's a social relevance that the Craig movies have been consistently making use of that underpins the overlapping plot the movies have been conveying. It will be interesting to see what the villainous agenda will be for Bond 24.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    There's a distinct problem with implementing more political elements into Bond for me; it automatically puts a time stamp on it, and I think that the best Bond films are essentially timeless.

    The Thunderball example you made @GustavGraves, is probably the best one. It draws from things that the world was afraid of at the time, but did so in a way that was unrestrictive (plot wise). By comparison, The Living Daylights has that taint of trying to be too involved in politics and showing Bond aligning himself with people, who would then in real life go on to be associated with one of the greatest mass murders in history. I always have that in the back of my mind now when I watch the film, and it's unfortunate to have to associate a great film with something so awful.

    So I'd probably agree that while Bond should tread political waters, he should do it extremely lightly. I don't think I'd have him facing off with religious extremists, for example.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    There's a distinct problem with implementing more political elements into Bond for me; it automatically puts a time stamp on it, and I think that the best Bond films are essentially timeless.
    Well... not really. The Bonds that deal with the Cold War are all dated, TSWLM & FYEO have those lively disco touches...
  • Posts: 11,425
    The Afghanistan bits of TLD are probably the worst in the whole series in this respect. They show how utterly idiotic and short-termist so many of the Western anti-communist interventions were. And how naive the West was about what it was doing. 27 years later, we're still paying the price.

    Bond should have steered well clear of all that. Just as it should stay well clear of anything specific about today's geopolitics. Yes the Cold War was the back drop to the early Bonds, but there's rarely anything specific, apart from the odd reference to detente and thawing of relations in the later Moore films.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I agree that current and conspicuous political issues should be avoided. The more obscure route in conveying geopolitics is best served for not just avoiding dating the film but to also avoid isolating audiences. Although many of the Bond films were set against the backdrop of the cold war and the soviets had a presence in the movies, the films managed to avoid any real sort of offence. However, what i've noticed over the years is the irony of some fans not wanting to have the films dated but will champion a period piece 50s/60s Bond film at the drop of a hat. It's not a criticism but more of an observation.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2014 Posts: 17,800
    Getafix wrote: »
    The Afghanistan bits of TLD are probably the worst in the whole series in this respect.
    I agree, but it was the manipulated perception at that time, a perception that was acted upon. I'd rather have had them avoid that particular mess myself- Rambo 3 already covered that nonsense.
    Getafix wrote: »
    They show how utterly idiotic and short-termist so many of the Western anti-communist interventions were. And how naive the West was about what it was doing.
    "Was"? Heh heh, nothing's different now. Governments change; the lies stay the same.
    ;)
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    The Afghanistan bits of TLD are probably the worst in the whole series in this respect. They show how utterly idiotic and short-termist so many of the Western anti-communist interventions were. And how naive the West was about what it was doing. 27 years later, we're still paying the price.

    Bond should have steered well clear of all that. Just as it should stay well clear of anything specific about today's geopolitics. Yes the Cold War was the back drop to the early Bonds, but there's rarely anything specific, apart from the odd reference to detente and thawing of relations in the later Moore films.

    The funny thing is: Even Bond scenes from the past, that at time time seemed quite cheesy, nowadays get a rather interesting new meaning. Let's quote one of the Bond villains from the past, General Orlov: "The West is decadent....and divided!" This fictuous villain couldn't be more right. The West IS decadent and divided nowadays.

    The thing is.....because is always kind of mirroring today's world, it's impossible to stay clear of politics. And sometimes it's not always politics. It can be rich filantropists too, or narcistic cyberhackers. I mean, Silva was never deliberately written as a slightly larger-than-life, psychotic version of Julian Assange. But look now to Julian Assange himself. Or to all this billionaires full of green nonsense, like Richard Branson or Elon Musk. Or....Dominic Greene.

    Even politics isn't that black-and-white. So I'm not too worried about this subject. Bond will never be "Zero Dark Thirty". And for that I'm happy. But during the course of 3 Bond films with Craig I really think the franchise has become more relevant than in the 1990's. The Craig-films for me are slightly more intelligently written, perhaps slightly more "intellectual", as Peter Hunt once said about his own film "OHMSS". Perhaps 9/11 gave the franchise a welcome dose of realism...how weird that may sound?

    Anyway, it's nice being a Bond fan nowadays :-). So much more stuff to talk about, to reflect upon.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 11,119
    And are we still saying that the hacking-plot from "Skyfall" was way over-the-top? At times even unbelievable, because of plot holes and missing explanations? Well, then read this article, about the big Computer Hack at Sony Pictures. It's really quite....scary :-S :

    bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-07/sony-s-darkseoul-breach-stretched-from-thai-hotel-to-hollywood.html

    After reading this, the plot from Silva in "Skyfall", mainly the technical part, should be seen in a different light.....
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117

    After reading this, the plot from Silva in "Skyfall", mainly the technical part, should be seen in a different light.....

    It's not the technical aspect that bothers me.

    It's Silva's supernatural ability to predict with 100% accuracy such a large array of variables on which is entire plan hangs that rankles.

  • After reading this, the plot from Silva in "Skyfall", mainly the technical part, should be seen in a different light.....

    It's not the technical aspect that bothers me.

    It's Silva's supernatural ability to predict with 100% accuracy such a large array of variables on which is entire plan hangs that rankles.

    That discussion should be held in another topic @TheWizardOfIce . This topic is about the geopolitical relevance of the Bond films mirrored to today's global events. Taking that in mind, regardless of plot holes and so on, "Skyfall" is suddenly a very relevant Bond film.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Getafix wrote: »
    Agreed, but sometimes it's nice to have a refuge from reality. Bond is about escapism, not realistic geopolitics. The way the Cold War was portrayed in Bond films was laughable and bore little connection with the real world.

    Indeed, the Soviets and MI6 teaming up to fight Stromberg was completely unrealistic. But it was only 2nd to General Gogol being delighted to meet a commander in the Afghan mujaheddin. It was one of those moments that make you say "oh come on!" I'm of the opinion that TLD would have ended better with the line "I know a good restaurant in Karachi."
    Getafix wrote: »
    Marc Forster is actually talking total nonsense. The Cold War was not very clear at all. Just read some John le Carre for a touch of moral ambiguity. The West did all sorts of utterly appalling things, like bombing the hell out of Vietnam, overthrowing democratically elected govts wherever they were slightly opposed to US foreign policy. It was about as morally ambiguous a period as you can get. I do personally think that on balance the West was on the right side of history, but the things it did to defeat Communism were often dreadful. I think that's one reason the Bond movies steer clear generally of having the Communists as the baddies - it's nearly always some shadowy crime syndicate or power crazed corporation.

    I'd argue in some ways the current conflict between the West and lunatic Islam is much more cut and dry, althhough once again, we are doing things that will make future generations ashamed.

    It's fine having contemporary events as a sort of back drop, but the last thing I want when watching Bond is to be reminded of the real world.

    I keep meaning to read/watch more John la Carre. As a fan of film noir I like ambiguity and situations where no one is a pure good guy. But that's not Bond. I'm still not sure how I feel about that part of QoS. I like the fact that they acknowledged that Western governments aren't always pure in either their intentions or actions, but it felt out of place.
    There's a distinct problem with implementing more political elements into Bond for me; it automatically puts a time stamp on it, and I think that the best Bond films are essentially timeless.

    Exactly. Every time Bond has tried to be too 'topical' it dates itself. Perhaps the exception is TMWTGG. They probably couldn't imagine that forty years later the plot about solar power would still be so relevant!
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond should have steered well clear of all that. Just as it should stay well clear of anything specific about today's geopolitics. Yes the Cold War was the back drop to the early Bonds, but there's rarely anything specific, apart from the odd reference to detente and thawing of relations in the later Moore films.

    Changing the bad guys from SMERSH to SPECTRE was quite a deliberate move, and one that I think turned out very well. The Connery movies would have much more limited appeal if he was battling SMERSH the whole time.
    Yet they still do reference the Cold War. In Dr No ('you must work for the East') and FRWL is pretty Cold War-ish, although really that plot could be done today with any unfriendly government.

    The Connery movies had an undertone of Sinophobia to them. It wasn't a coincidence that Miss Taro, the Chinese secretary, was a spy for Dr No, the half-Chinese evil genius. This was made much more explicit in the book. Also the Chinese were working with both Goldfinger (they supplied to bomb) and bankrolling SPECTRE in YOLT. China was a 'safe' bad guy back then, because the threat from them was very limited and no on in China watched Bond. I doubt we'll see that again because of the importance of the Chinese movie market.
    That discussion should be held in another topic @TheWizardOfIce . This topic is about the geopolitical relevance of the Bond films mirrored to today's global events. Taking that in mind, regardless of plot holes and so on, "Skyfall" is suddenly a very relevant Bond film.

    then why'd you bring it up?

    Skyfall was very 'relevant' in 2012. Thats when Wikileaks was in its heyday.
  • Or in 2015. When some crazy criminals calling themselves "Guardians Of Peace" hack into the entire Sony server collection, threathening employees, even cinema visitors, with terrorist attacks.

    WikiLeaks was only the "tip of the tentacle". Cyber Warfare is still among us. Countries like China, even North-Korea, master this art. So did Silva in "SF".
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    you can add the US and its allies to the countries that have mastered the art. Stuxnet is a perfect example.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Sark wrote: »
    you can add the US and its allies to the countries that have mastered the art. Stuxnet is a perfect example.

    !00% in agreement. They are the masters of it, and the Windows 10 software (out next year), Facebook, IOS are all bugged and tracked, no matter what anyone says. Let's not be so quick to assume it's only 'the bad guys' who do this.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    you can add the US and its allies to the countries that have mastered the art. Stuxnet is a perfect example.

    !00% in agreement. They are the masters of it, and the Windows 10 software (out next year), Facebook, IOS are all bugged and tracked, no matter what anyone says. Let's not be so quick to assume it's only 'the bad guys' who do this.


    Well, that's true. But that's different, IMO, from hacking entire companies and using the hacks as means of extortion, revenge and other severe threats.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    you can add the US and its allies to the countries that have mastered the art. Stuxnet is a perfect example.

    !00% in agreement. They are the masters of it, and the Windows 10 software (out next year), Facebook, IOS are all bugged and tracked, no matter what anyone says. Let's not be so quick to assume it's only 'the bad guys' who do this.


    Well, that's true. But that's different, IMO, from hacking entire companies and using the hacks as means of extortion, revenge and other severe threats.

    If you're comparing the threats coming from GoP to the spying on your personal activities via MS, Facebook & IOS, then yes, there is a difference. Your privacy is compromised in both cases. In one case (the Sony case) you know about it because it's publicized, and it was a hack of a corporate, commercial system. In the other case (spying on your personal activities) you still assume you're safe when you're not & the system that is being spied on is completely personal & not commercial in nature.

    If you're talking about comparing the threats coming from GoP to Struxnet and other bugs that are used for geopolitical warfare, then the only difference is GoP have identified themselves. Struxnet is still anonymous.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Do you think the upcoming "Grexit" is driving Greece into the tight deadlock embrace of Russia and China? I'm actually very much worried about the geopolitical consequences a "Grexit" and even a "Brexit" can have. Do not forget that Greece is a NATO-member as well...
  • Posts: 15,123
    With the Ebola virus, I am fairly sure biological warfare will show up in the future, maybe even in SP.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Do you think the upcoming "Grexit" is driving Greece into the tight deadlock embrace of Russia and China?

    No.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Sark wrote: »
    Do you think the upcoming "Grexit" is driving Greece into the tight deadlock embrace of Russia and China?

    No.

    Elaborate please...:)
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