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NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2019 Posts: 8,215
    vzok wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    Bond has just found out that Vesper has betrayed him.

    I know. I just think the music is way too over the top for that particular moment. It’s like a child banging pots together.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    Yes, this I agree
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,078
    vzok wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    Bond has just found out that Vesper has betrayed him.

    I love that moment! The score makes it work really well.

    I remember the first time i saw TND and watching that great PTS with Arnold's fantastic music to compliment the images. I knew EON had found the right man for the job!

    'White Knight' is still one of my favourite Arnold tracks.
  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    Pavlo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Pavlo wrote: »
    To people who criticized Dan Romer work after listening his soundacks - film music must work not as isolated piece, but as part of movie, its dynamics. Film music is created not for listening in Youtube or on vinyl, but for perception in movie's dynamics. Dan Romer music in Cary's works perfectly fits tone, dynamics, emotional notes of films. Let's hope that the same will be the case in Bond 25.

    True, but the best thing about Bond scores is that they're amazing pieces to listen on YouTube and on Vinyl.

    100% this. There's no reason why film music can't be memorable and be fitting to a scene at the same time.

    But, first of all, it must fit in film. If it fits film, but doesnt sound great as piece on YouTube that it's great. It's bad when it sounds great on Youtube or Vinyl but doesnt work with movie.

    Ridiculous comment, and you know it.

    All John Barry stuff sounds excellent on YouTube, as does John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Ennio Morricone, even Hans Zimmer. You can listen to pretty anything these guys do in isolation, and it sounds great.

    So by your reckoning, all of these composers therefore must be bad, because they sound great on YouTube and vinyl...?

    No. But great score that is great to listen on YouTube can work badly with film. It is music for film! It must work in dynamics of film, with visual, sounds part, emotional core, atmoshere of scene setting, philosophical depth. Great score can unfit in movie and you know it too.
  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Pavlo’s point is that the primary objective of film score music is that must compliment/fit the film. Whether it can be something you listen to in isolation is just a bonus. That’s why a site like FilmTracks.com has a rating system where they rate the score in isolation and rate the score within the film.

    He’s not arguing a Goldsmith score sounding great outside of a film is terrible.

    Thx! That is what I wanted to say.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    vzok wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    Bond has just found out that Vesper has betrayed him.

    I love that moment! The score makes it work really well.

    I remember the first time i saw TND and watching that great PTS with Arnold's fantastic music to compliment the images. I knew EON had found the right man for the job!

    'White Knight' is still one of my favourite Arnold tracks.

    Yes Arnold helped lift TND. The PTS is totally Bond by numbers but works pretty well. For me TND is Brosnan's best - the first half at least. Arnold is a part of that.
  • battleshipgreygtbattleshipgreygt
    Posts: 1,220
    Romer’s work on Beasts of the Southern Wild is one of my all time favourite scores. Nothing he’s done in the past strikes me as remotely Bondian, but I don’t think it’s fair to make a judgment based on his previous work, which is so far off from what we’d expect for Bond. I imagine it’ll be a departure from his more ambient style. At the end of the day I just want a score that compliments the film and effectively portrays the directors vision and thus far, Romer has succeeded so I’m confident in Cary’s choice to stick with him.
  • Pierce2DanielPierce2Daniel
    Posts: 4,410
    For all those a little disappointed, remember that Romer has yet to be announced by Eon. I wouldn't be surprised if Romer is working with another composer as part of a collaboration. Something not dissimilar to how Hans Zimmer works on a number of his films.

    Interesting video of Romer talking about working with CJF


  • MuddywMuddyw
    edited July 2019 Posts: 198
    The thing I hate most in Arnold's Bond music is his overly use of ugly generic electronics and some of the percussion. He is a far cry from the brilliant, pop song melody writing, John Barry, like GF, YOLT, OHMSS, MR, TLD. To me Arnold simply lacks depth, warmth and dynamics. All his action pieces are just a wall of sound which I always hate, also in pop songs (same goes for Hans Zimmer with a lot of his wall of sound work).

    Next to Barry I think George Martin's brilliant and funky LALD soundtrack is up to his par. Because Martin was a pop producer, wrote music like pop songs as Barry did.

    We'll have to wait and see/listen to what Dan Romer will bring. From what I heard on this forum (various work by Dan Romer) I am not excited yet: too much Indie.

    First Man by Justin Hurwitz has a great sound (The Landing). Great use of instruments and melodies.
  • PanchitoPistolesPanchitoPistoles 2.0
    Posts: 4,619
    battleshipgreygt wrote: »
    Romer’s work on Beasts of the Southern Wild is one of my all time favourite scores.
    Yes, it's an excellent score especially this track but let's not forget that that score was a collaboration between him and director Benh Zeitlin.

  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323


    Really great, poetic, emotional score from Dan Romer that shows his versatility.
  • Pierce2DanielPierce2Daniel
    Posts: 4,410
    Pavlo wrote: »


    Really great, poetic, emotional score from Dan Romer that shows his versatility.

    Wow.

    This is beautiful
  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    That is absolutely beautiful. Better than anything Poundshop John Barry A.K.A. David Arnold has ever produced.
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 488
    There are some composers that work better when paired with a director who knows them well. Ennio Morricone has written some great scores, and has been incredibly prolific over something like six decades, but one can argue that his best work came from his collaborations with Sergio Leone, who was a childhood friend. Morricone would offer him dozens of themes for a particular film, even before production started, and Leone would be able to pick the three or four that he really loved, even playing the music on the set to put the actors in the right mood. Nino Rota had the same kind of understanding with Federico Fellini (even if he also brought his best game to The Godfather or The Leopard). And John Barry had it with Broccoli and Saltzman (not just Bond, there was also The IPCRESS File) for quite a while.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,589
    Top 20 tracks of the Craig era:

    1. "A Night at the Opera" QoS, Arnold
    2. "Someone Usually Dies" SF, Newman
    3. "Modigliani" SF, Newman
    4. "Madeleine" SP, Newman
    5. "Komodo Dragon" SF, Newman
    6. "Brave New World" SF Newman
    7. "Chimera: SF Newman
    8. "Vesper" CR Arnold
    9. "Los Muertos Vivos Estan" SP Newman
    10. "New Digs" SF Newman
    11. "CCTV" CR Arnold
    12. "Shanghai Drive" SF Newman
    13. "Skyfall" SF Newman
    14. "L'Americain" SP Newman
    15. "Dinner Jackets" CR Arnold
    16. "Donna Lucia" SP Newman
    17. "Close Shave" SF Newman
    17. "Solange" CR Arnold
    18. "Field Trip" QoS Arnold
    19. "Vauxhall Bridge" SP Newman
    20. "Out of Bullets" SP Newman

    Let's see if Romer can find his way in here. I'm looking forward to seeing what he can create.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,215
    Good picks, though I dunno if I’d put “CCTV” among the top cues. It’s pretty standard Arnold material as far as his incidental pieces go.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,521
    No inclusion of No Interest in Dominic Greene?!? One of my favorites.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    HildebrandRarity wrote: »
    There are some composers that work better when paired with a director who knows them well. Ennio Morricone has written some great scores, and has been incredibly prolific over something like six decades, but one can argue that his best work came from his collaborations with Sergio Leone, who was a childhood friend. Morricone would offer him dozens of themes for a particular film, even before production started, and Leone would be able to pick the three or four that he really loved, even playing the music on the set to put the actors in the right mood. Nino Rota had the same kind of understanding with Federico Fellini (even if he also brought his best game to The Godfather or The Leopard). And John Barry had it with Broccoli and Saltzman (not just Bond, there was also The IPCRESS File) for quite a while.

    Imagine if Tarantino had directed Brosnan in a period CR with a Morricone score. Pierce, all would have been forgiven!
  • BounineBounine
    Posts: 2,599
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    I can't remember the score in the Venice sequence but I agree with you; Arnold did over do it in parts during the five Bond films he scored.

    I remember the short sequence in TND when Bond was driving the DB5 into headquarters and Arnold blasted the Bond theme over it. It should have been much more subtle. He would just take me out of the film sometimes. His scores improved with the Craig era but a good few facets of the Brosnan era (not just the scores) looked/sounded like cheesy, overdone homages. Some of Arnolds tracks were good but on the whole I was never particularly impressed.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,215
    He definitely overused the Bond theme for TND in some of the most inconsequential moments.

    I think his experience with CR taught him that holding the theme back made its moments of use the more special, while encouraging him to make more use of original compositions that evoke the same feel as the theme.
  • vzokvzok
    Posts: 4,045
    Bounine wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I like bombastic music in Bond scores, but I feel Arnold indulged in that too much to the point his scores became ruinous. One that sticks to mind is in CR, right after Bond hangs up his phone on the banker, it’s just these loud pounding notes that sound like they’d be more suited to a shoot em up action scene, but it’s just Bond scoping around Venice for Vesper. Even watching with my dad he had to ask “what’s with the score?”. I can’t help but think the scene would be better off with something more subtle that built up the tension, something Barry was a master at conjuring up with a repetitive note structure that would slowly add up more layers to rack up the suspense.

    I can't remember the score in the Venice sequence but I agree with you; Arnold did over do it in parts during the five Bond films he scored.

    I remember the short sequence in TND when Bond was driving the DB5 into headquarters and Arnold blasted the Bond theme over it. It should have been much more subtle. He would just take me out of the film sometimes. His scores improved with the Craig era but a good few facets of the Brosnan era (not just the scores) looked/sounded like cheesy, overdone homages. Some of Arnolds tracks were good but on the whole I was never particularly impressed.

    Wasn’t he recreating the feeling of the first two Connerys, where the theme would be played loud as Bond entered the scene. He was matching that to the return of the Aston.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,215
    Probably, but I wouldn’t call it a good thing. One of the weakest bits in FRWL for me is when the filmmakers decided to tack in the DN recording of the Bond theme while Bond was searching for bugs in his suite, and it was cranked up to an absurd volume.




    I just don’t care for Arnold’s 60s throwback style. It worked for that era, but even John Barry had the sense to change the Bond sound as by the 80s as it no longer sounded like his 60s scores. Arnold’s approach in TND at times felt like a step backwards. It’s why I don’t care for that big band k.d. Lang tune, though the Crowe song isn’t much better.
  • vzokvzok
    Posts: 4,045
    I think in the 90s referring back to the 60s was a thing. Groups like Portishead and Goldfrapp were big on including a 60s spy edge to their work. Arnold was involved with some of those bands. It all probably seemed more relevant to do it then. 20 years later it’s more likely to seem off.

    I don’t like the music in that FRWL scene either. I’ve heard people say it’s cool to have the theme play all the time, but it is too loud there. I’d have preferred a reworking of it to fit the scene, like James Bond With Bongos.
  • FrankXavierFrankXavier
    Posts: 678
    I disagree. KD Lang's song was spectacular and the TWINE score is wonderful. It's not Barry but it's better than any of the experimental scores, especially Newman's.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited July 2019 Posts: 16,359
    FrankXavier wrote: »
    I disagree. KD Lang's song was spectacular and the TWINE score is wonderful. It's not Barry but it's better than any of the experimental scores, especially Newman's.

    This. Whatever one's music tastes are, what Arnold was doing wasn't a cheap pastiche or ripoff. I'm sorry to say (not really) that bombastic orchestra and brass is the Bond sound. It's as simple as that. He took the Bond sound and modernized it.
  • Pierce2DanielPierce2Daniel
    edited July 2019 Posts: 4,410
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Probably, but I wouldn’t call it a good thing. One of the weakest bits in FRWL for me is when the filmmakers decided to tack in the DN recording of the Bond theme while Bond was searching for bugs in his suite, and it was cranked up to an absurd volume.




    I just don’t care for Arnold’s 60s throwback style. It worked for that era, but even John Barry had the sense to change the Bond sound as by the 80s as it no longer sounded like his 60s scores. Arnold’s approach in TND at times felt like a step backwards. It’s why I don’t care for that big band k.d. Lang tune, though the Crowe song isn’t much better.

    You’re viewing the scene in hindsight.

    When they made DN they didn’t know it would spawn a 50+ year series with 25 films yet. The ‘Bond theme’ as we know it was just an exciting piece of music. The early Bond’s are un-selfconscious. In hindsight it can seem gratuitous a decision, but you're only coming at it from the perspective of what the theme means in our current context.

    It’s because of sequences such as the above we have the series and tropes people love....
  • delfloriadelfloria
    Posts: 1,870
    Agree with the comment above. Personally I love this kind of "in your face" kind of music use in the Bond films. Bond is not about subtlety to me. I think it may be a generational thing.
  • PavloPavlo Ukraine
    Posts: 323
    Pierce2Daniel wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Probably, but I wouldn’t call it a good thing. One of the weakest bits in FRWL for me is when the filmmakers decided to tack in the DN recording of the Bond theme while Bond was searching for bugs in his suite, and it was cranked up to an absurd volume.




    I just don’t care for Arnold’s 60s throwback style. It worked for that era, but even John Barry had the sense to change the Bond sound as by the 80s as it no longer sounded like his 60s scores. Arnold’s approach in TND at times felt like a step backwards. It’s why I don’t care for that big band k.d. Lang tune, though the Crowe song isn’t much better.

    You’re viewing the scene in hindsight.

    When they made DN they didn’t know it would spawn a 50+ year series with 25 films yet. The ‘Bond theme’ as we know it was just an exciting piece of music. The early Bond’s are un-selfconscious. In hindsight it can seem gratuitous a decision, but you're only coming at it from the perspective of what the theme means in our current context.

    It’s because of sequences such as the above we have the series and tropes people love....

    I know that it is classic scene and classic score (and I really love it), but watching this scene I have a feeling and thought that this score just doesnt fit in this scene. Yes, it is stylish, gives sense of coolness and it's "bondian", but scene is about something else and in its core this scene not only about plot, but about atmosphere of suspence. Too triumphant, too straight in its emotion score for this scene. As for me, it's an example when great-great score finds not the best place in film for itself.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Murdock wrote: »
    FrankXavier wrote: »
    I disagree. KD Lang's song was spectacular and the TWINE score is wonderful. It's not Barry but it's better than any of the experimental scores, especially Newman's.

    This. Whatever one's music tastes are, what Arnold was doing wasn't a cheap pastiche or ripoff. I'm sorry to say (not really) that bombastic orchestra and brass is the Bond sound. It's as simple as that. He took the Bond sound and modernized it.

    +1
  • BounineBounine
    edited July 2019 Posts: 2,599
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Probably, but I wouldn’t call it a good thing. One of the weakest bits in FRWL for me is when the filmmakers decided to tack in the DN recording of the Bond theme while Bond was searching for bugs in his suite, and it was cranked up to an absurd volume.




    I just don’t care for Arnold’s 60s throwback style. It worked for that era, but even John Barry had the sense to change the Bond sound as by the 80s as it no longer sounded like his 60s scores. Arnold’s approach in TND at times felt like a step backwards. It’s why I don’t care for that big band k.d. Lang tune, though the Crowe song isn’t much better.

    This is the only scene I don't like in FRWL - when Bond is in the hotel room and this is solely due to the music - too loud and overly flamboyant.
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