licence to kill: best bond film ever????

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  • Posts: 5,634
    It's not even in my top ten either despite Dalton being my favorite Bond actor, Daylights is streets ahead in terms of action for me and that it keeps the interest, here, Dalton is restricted to the Florida Keys and Mexico and goes shark hunting etc, Yes there's an increased level of violence and I'm all for that, but apart from some heavyweight performances from Davi and Del Toro to name a few, not an awful lot goes on, Lowell is too bland a Bond girl, a sort of 1980s' Lois Chiles, and Soto is just plain annoying sometimes, it's a pity for Dalton that he left the series at this point when he could easily have appeared in another couple of releases if not for the legal disputes etc
  • I do find it interesting that Dalton is stating that he didn't have that big of a role in the script for LTK, but yet he doesn't get the pass Brosnan does with his scripts. Back to the topic, Ilike LTK because it is probably the closest we will ever get to a proper OHMSS sequel. Dalton fits the role of a more Flemingesque Bond like a glove. Carey Lowell is one of the better Bond girls, and Sanchez is probably a top five villian imo. However, the film does get dated into the 80s, and does seem to be lacking direction at times. With all that in mind it is a top ten Bond film for me.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Kill for me is in the middle of the pack now. Probably about #12ish.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yep, a middle to low ranker for me. Above PB's outings and the worst of the Moore era, but that's it. And despite the fact I rate Dalton very highly.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Strangely enough, its middle of the pack for me, or just above, despite the fact that it is an excellent film and Dalton is my favourite Bond.

    The problem is there are too many excellent films above it. The quality on Bond has been superb.

    Sanchez is a top five villain though.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    Strangely enough, its middle of the pack for me, or just above, despite the fact that it is an excellent film and Dalton is my favourite Bond.

    The problem is there are too many excellent films above it. The quality on Bond has been superb.

    Sanchez is a top five villain though.

    Robert Davi is amazing as Sanchez and I genuinely believe he is the best thing in the film.

    ("Not a word")
  • Licence To Kill was a troubled Bond movie. It could have, and should have, been a lot better than the product we are left with.

    I always love reading about the passion for an individual Bond movie. I particularly enjoy reading about the genuine love certain people have for the more neglected films like TMWTGG, AVTAK, DAF, TWINE, DAD and QoS. I may not always agree with the comments, but I enjoy them nonetheless.

    I wish I could join in the Licence To Kill love. I really wish I could. But it just leaves me cold. In my eyes, it is FAR from 'the best Bond film ever'. It isn't even the best Bond film of that decade, or of the Timothy Dalton era.
  • Posts: 1,370
    actonsteve wrote:
    Strangely enough, its middle of the pack for me, or just above, despite the fact that it is an excellent film and Dalton is my favourite Bond.

    The problem is there are too many excellent films above it. The quality on Bond has been superb.

    Sanchez is a top five villain though.

    Good point - there are so many excellent Bond films that the ones which are "middling" are still great.

    But I did find that the direction was a bit lacklustre which didn't help. A good director can make a lower budget film look better through stylish direction and more innovative camera moves. LTK is pretty by-the-numbers so the film looks a little "meh". It still uses some camera moves (slight zoom-in when panning up to reveal a character, for example) that I had noticed when I had finally watched TMWTGG for the first time a few days before rewatching LTK (that's another story on its own!). It gives a consistency to the visual style of the Bond films but looks dated. Look at how much great cinematography can improve a film and make it look fresh when you look at how CR was shot, for example.

    I find that LTK gets some things so right like the casting - especially of Davi, Zerbe, and Del Toro - but then gets a few things wrong. I know that a lot of people really like Pam but to me Lowell didn't bring a lot of personality to the character. She was a little bland and never convincing as a former Army pilot. I have no problem with the short hair (it was in style at the time and looked really good) which for some reason seems to be a common complaint. I thought that Soto was a great find in terms of looks and "hotness" but I almost wish that her character had been shown to be a bit better at manipulating men with her sex appeal. I can understand why Sanchez would keep her around but making her character a little more...worldly wouldn't have hurt.

    I think another pass at the script would have helped, especially with the character development. A casual viewer would never understand the deep friendship between Felix and Bond which is essential to understanding why Bond would risk everything to avenge Felix and Della. The film-makers should never assume that people will "read in" character traits or motivations based on past films or (!) the books. A couple of simple lines from Felix where he drops his guard and tells Bond that he treasures their friendship, that he never thought that they would get to the point where they are now, or even joking about some past adventures - it wouldn't have taken more than a few seconds and I don't think it would have "weakened" the characters or seemed sappy. As it is Felix comes across as "a guy" which weakens the revenge story a bit IMHO.

    Still, a really good Bond film - but like some the potential was there to make it even better...

  • Posts: 1,370

    I wish I could join in the Licence To Kill love. I really wish I could. But it just leaves me cold. In my eyes, it is FAR from 'the best Bond film ever'. It isn't even the best Bond film of that decade, or of the Timothy Dalton era.

    We all have our own tastes, but context makes a huge difference as well. As I mentioned in a different thread here:

    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/3204/new-perspective-on-ltk-after-first-viewing-in-15-years#Item_25

    ...there were quite a few elements that made me really like the film on first viewing. I'm pretty sure that if I saw the film for the first time now I would still appreciate many elements of it on an intellectual level but I likely wouldn't have as much affection for it.

  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    edited May 2012 Posts: 370
    I've always been a big fan of LTK but reading these recent threads made me want to go and watch it yet again. So I popped the thing into the DVD player last night. Here are a few thoughts

    Yes, it does look a bit cheap. It does look like a made for tv movie in places. Although there is a nice handheld camera shot of Bond entering Felix’s house after he learns that Sanchez escaped.

    One thing that really struck me this time around was how easily Sanchez let Bond put doubts in his mind about his people. I thought "Sanchez has been working with these people for years, how come he's letting Bond influence him so much.' But then I realised the answer was right in front of me. Early on in the movie Sanchez says "loyalty is more important to me than money." I had always just taken that to be a cool line and an interesting departure for a Bond villain who normally feeds underlings to piranhas, etc. But then I realised that this is actually a big flaw in Sanchez's character. His code of loyalty is so strong that the slightest doubt created in his mind equals betrayal.

    Another thing that came across was just how badly Bond screws up in this movie. He makes many mistakes that gets people killed. He gets Sharky to take him out to the Wavekrest on the off chance that Sanchez is there. Poor Sharky gets killed. Later he gets captured by his own side and that gets the Hong Kong narcotics people killed. They had spent years infiltrating Sanchez's operation and Bond blunders in and gets them all killed in one evening. It's probably Bond's biggest screw-up in the first 16 movies.

    But I love how dumb luck plays a part. His capture by his own side is the thing that makes Sanchez trust him.

    Another interesting element is how crime is portrayed as a business. Sanchez is wining and dining his investors and Truman-Lodge is handing them demographic breakdowns.

    I think Pam is possibly the best Bond girl before Vesper, and I don't say that lightly. Carely Lowell is a very fine actress and a case in point is her scene with Bond when he thinks she’s betrayed him and he pushes her onto the bed and points a gun at her. In that moment Bond is taking on Sanchez's obsession with loyalty I suppose. She is constantly resourceful and she has to be because (slightly annoyingly) Bond keeps telling her and Q to leave, but the fact is he couldn't fight Sanchez alone. I love her efforts to meet Professor Joe. There's a gorgeous shot of her after she's run down stairs crying, just before Bond leaps over the balcony. One of the moments when the movie breaks out if it’s “TV movie” look.

    Q is brilliant. Licence to Kill is probably Desmond Llewellyn's finest moment in the Bond series. I love his downcast expression when bond tells him to leave and then a few minutes later his glee when bond tells him to bring the car. "Yes, Sir!"

    I could write a lot more but I will end for now by saying that I for one love the winking fish. I love that Sanchez would insist on having a winking fish by his swimming pool. What's a millionaire drug-lord to do if he can’t have a winking fish?
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Chevron wrote:
    I had written a lot but something happene the site and I've lost it. I'll come back and recreate it later. How annoying is putting it lightly.

    It didn't save it as a draft? That is the site's best feature. A real shame if it doesn't work for everyone.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I think soon I'll watch TLD and LTK back to back. LTK has been my favourite since I first saw it, with TLD in 2nd place, but it's been a while since I've seen TLD. Time to rejudge which one is the best Bond film ever.
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    Posts: 370
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Chevron wrote:
    I had written a lot but something happene the site and I've lost it. I'll come back and recreate it later. How annoying is putting it lightly.

    It didn't save it as a draft? That is the site's best feature. A real shame if it doesn't work for everyone.

    It "said" it saved the draft but when the computer stopped hanging it had gone. Grrr. I've rewritten most of my comments and edited them into the post above.

  • edited May 2012 Posts: 299
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    @ SaintMark
    I totally disagree with your arguments. LTK is a damned good film. It is not respected (and I don't see why) among some of my colleagues on this discussion board. But I for one enjoyed both of Dalton's films. Even on his worst day (maybe his attempts at light humor in TLD) he is heads over shoulders better than Brosnan.

    That being said, LTK scores on all fronts:
    the villian is a physical match for Bond
    the cold brooding moody killer that Bond is played well in this entry
    The chicks were both 'hot'.
    Sanchez's henchmen were not the big buff rugby players(and blond) we usually see but some physically small and violent drug dealers. This gallery of rogues may have been slightly built but they were cold blooded and violent killers. the type you find in most drug cartels. This film is probablty the most meticulously casted film in a long, long time.
    The stunts were good and the underwater battle rivals the action in Thunderball...
    The rogue agent was played to outstanding effect in this film and it was good to see old Q out of his shop and being a field agent.
    the Violence (many good guys die in this one-gritty realism) was right on and the brutal deaths of the bad guys was well deserved. Krest, Dario, Heller, Lodge, and Sanchez.

    I felt drained after this movie but fully satisfied.

    @OHMSS69, I fully agree with almost everything you say here. These are exactly the reasons why I feel LTK is one of the best of the series. I think you described it to a T. And to that I will add that the tanker truck chase is simply spectacular.

    However...
    BAIN123 wrote:
    It strays from its comfort zone but in the process it takes out quite a lot that made Bond popular in the first place.

    CR is a "different take" but it has charm, wit and panache. The locations and cinematography are stunning, the humour is toned down but still plentiful and the story and tone still fit the "Bond mould".

    @BAIN123, I also agree with what you say here. CR, though also with a different take, does have the charm, wit and panache the LTK lacks. And for that reason I rate CR just above it. I competely understand why some people say that LTK doesn't feel or look very Bond-like. I get it. But beyond the obvious, I still think it does a lot of things right, at least the ones that matter.

    Overall though, my strong support of LTK stems from the fact that I always felt like it was one of the most Fleming-like of all the stories. It is really grounded in the world that Fleming constantly wrote about, and his style is very apparent throughout IMO. It feels authentic.

    Currently it is my #4 of the series, surpassed only by OHMSS, FRWL and CR.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I do find it interesting that Dalton is stating that he didn't have that big of a role in the script for LTK, but yet he doesn't get the pass Brosnan does with his scripts.

    There's a bit more to it than that, I would say. LTK, while being a much different script to the ones that preceeded it, is still a pretty good script for a film of its type, whereas many people believe the script is the biggest problem with the Brosnan flicks.

    I think a lot of people just dislike the tone of LTK, rather than the script itself. The locations, the serious acting, the level of graphic violence, etc. I know these things are relative to the script, but the tone of the film doesn't just come from the script itself, so that's where Dalton and Brozza differ in terms of scripts.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Pretty good Bond film, but I do prefer TLD more. Dalton - how so many of us wish you had done at least one more!
  • I wouldn't call LTK the greatest Bond film, but to me it's a top 5 entry without a doubt, I have it at #3 and while I love TLD (my #5), LTK expands the character to a level of darkness never before seen in the series and deserves much credit for that. I loved the movie when I saw it and I still do. OHMSS69 listed all the reasons why the film is great so I'll leave it at that.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Pretty good Bond film, but I do prefer TLD more. Dalton - how so many of us wish you had done at least one more!

    Indeed. I think Dalton would have found his magnum opus in GE. I get a smile seeing him in that tank, tearing through St. Petersburg. What a shame...
  • Posts: 12,837
    Pretty good Bond film, but I do prefer TLD more. Dalton - how so many of us wish you had done at least one more!

    Indeed. I think Dalton would have found his magnum opus in GE. I get a smile seeing him in that tank, tearing through St. Petersburg. What a shame...

    I love Dalton and I'd have liked 3 or 4 more films from him, but I feel bad taking GE away from Brosnan. It was his best film, and I liked his Bond.
  • Two things I also like about Dalton are evident in LTK. First is his cold eyes. This was something written by Fleming to describe Bond, and I think Dalton (with maybe Craig) being the Bond to master this. Also, I like that Q is helping Bond on his mission. If you ranked each Bond on how much Q seemed to like them, I think Dalton's is the highest. It doesn't mean anything,
  • Posts: 1,082
    I do find it interesting that Dalton is stating that he didn't have that big of a role in the script for LTK, but yet he doesn't get the pass Brosnan does with his scripts.

    There's a bit more to it than that, I would say. LTK, while being a much different script to the ones that preceeded it, is still a pretty good script for a film of its type, whereas many people believe the script is the biggest problem with the Brosnan flicks.

    I think a lot of people just dislike the tone of LTK, rather than the script itself. The locations, the serious acting, the level of graphic violence, etc. I know these things are relative to the script, but the tone of the film doesn't just come from the script itself, so that's where Dalton and Brozza differ in terms of scripts.

    I think LTK's tone is ok, but I'd preferred if it were less dark and serious. What I like the least however is the scipt. Revenge tales are not my cup of tea and I don't like to see Leiter suffer (a character I care about). But without it I guess we wouldn't have seen Jack Wade, and that would be a pity!

    Now, I understand why Bond gets pissed. But seeing these violent themes isn't something I crave. I wish it never happened.

    All in all a good film still, and I'm glad that some of you other Bond fans who like darker movies got some enjoyment with it.
  • I really like this movie ver much.

    blackknight
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    BAIN123 wrote:
    LTK is miles ahead of DAD - I'll give you that.

    I don't agree. :((

    I'd say it's the other way around. I mean LTK is a good action film and all, but DAD is IMO a really good way to modernize the Moore movies. A really good film IMO.

    Modernize? Have you noticed how outdated DAD is at this point? That's what you get with crappy CGI, you see. You're stuck in that phase of trying to make things look as photorealistic as you can, but you don't fully succeed. Ten years later, CGI has been improved so much, it makes DAD look like a Commodore 64 in a modern computerstore today. LTK, relying on old-school filmmaking techniques, feels far more timeless. Also, in terms of story, it would seem that revenge plots are very hot today. The cartoon maniac, like Graves, just isn't what audiences want today.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2012 Posts: 15,718
    @Dimi LTK is very dated.... it is firmly set in the late 1980's, and plays out like a Miami Vice episode..... but I still love the film :) and Dalton is great !!

    by the same token, TLD is also very much dated, with the whole Mujahaddin plot and the friendly Kamran Shah - very cringe-worthy when we know what has taken place since 9/11.......
  • Posts: 1,370
    I think that the phrases "dated", "modernize" and "of a time" are all a little different.

    I don't believe that the inclusion of the Mujahaddin means that TLD is dated - it's just "of a time". The same as the Cold War elements of the early films, for example. To me "of a time" means things that were present in that era in terms of news and politics, or even technology. Note that I'm speaking of story elements, not film-making techniques.

    When someone mentions DAD trying to "modernize" a Moore film I think the meaning is to make a film in the style of a Moore entry and make it fit into modern times. To me that is very different than a film being dated.

    When I think of a film being dated I'm thinking of the techniques. To me, the "stuttering" shot of the Aston Martin in DAD would be an example, or the bad CGI in the parasailing scene. The over-edited action scenes in QoS would be another example. When something is a well done as it can be I don't think it looks dated; when something is in favour for a very short time (like that "stuttering shot") then it's dated and not "classic".

    One thing that I never think about in terms of being dated are fashions. Everything comes and goes out of fashion so I can't think of the late 80s outfits as being dated - the only reason that someone would think that they are dated but the clothes from the early films are "classic" or "retro" is the period of time that has elapsed.

    I think that the vast majority of the Bond films and elements within them are "of their time". One of the great things about the Bond films is how little about them are "dated".
  • Posts: 11,425
    The Mujahaddin thing was unfortunate. Bond doesn't normally ally himself with ideologues. An uncharacteristic lapse of judgement.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 12,837
    Yeah, as much as I love TLD, the film hasn't exactly aged well. But it's still great. LTK has a brilliant 80s feel (that it mixes perfectly with the Bond formula) so it's going to feel outdated compared to some modern films.
  • Posts: 1,082
    DarthDimi wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    LTK is miles ahead of DAD - I'll give you that.

    I don't agree. :((

    I'd say it's the other way around. I mean LTK is a good action film and all, but DAD is IMO a really good way to modernize the Moore movies. A really good film IMO.

    Modernize? Have you noticed how outdated DAD is at this point? That's what you get with crappy CGI, you see. You're stuck in that phase of trying to make things look as photorealistic as you can, but you don't fully succeed. Ten years later, CGI has been improved so much, it makes DAD look like a Commodore 64 in a modern computerstore today. LTK, relying on old-school filmmaking techniques, feels far more timeless. Also, in terms of story, it would seem that revenge plots are very hot today. The cartoon maniac, like Graves, just isn't what audiences want today.

    When someone mentions DAD trying to "modernize" a Moore film I think the meaning is to make a film in the style of a Moore entry and make it fit into modern times. To me that is very different than a film being dated.

    Thanks, thelordflasheart. This is exactly what I meant.
  • Posts: 299
    I think that the phrases "dated", "modernize" and "of a time" are all a little different.

    I don't believe that the inclusion of the Mujahaddin means that TLD is dated - it's just "of a time". The same as the Cold War elements of the early films, for example. To me "of a time" means things that were present in that era in terms of news and politics, or even technology. Note that I'm speaking of story elements, not film-making techniques.

    When someone mentions DAD trying to "modernize" a Moore film I think the meaning is to make a film in the style of a Moore entry and make it fit into modern times. To me that is very different than a film being dated.

    When I think of a film being dated I'm thinking of the techniques. To me, the "stuttering" shot of the Aston Martin in DAD would be an example, or the bad CGI in the parasailing scene. The over-edited action scenes in QoS would be another example. When something is a well done as it can be I don't think it looks dated; when something is in favour for a very short time (like that "stuttering shot") then it's dated and not "classic".

    One thing that I never think about in terms of being dated are fashions. Everything comes and goes out of fashion so I can't think of the late 80s outfits as being dated - the only reason that someone would think that they are dated but the clothes from the early films are "classic" or "retro" is the period of time that has elapsed.

    I think that the vast majority of the Bond films and elements within them are "of their time". One of the great things about the Bond films is how little about them are "dated".

    You bring up excellent points @thelordflasheart
  • License to Kill was a good Bond film. Very underrated.
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