SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    marc wrote: »
    Hey, german speaking people know articles from verbs (mostly, that is). :--) About the audiences' response I don't know, as I only saw DAD years later.

    But it's even worse, as Brosnan is dubbed by the voice of Al Pacino (and Kevin Costner). And to close the circle, Lazenby got the same voice as Connery (which makes the "This never happened ..." line a bit weirder), while in DN Connery gets the voice of Clint Eastwood ("I had to")... 🙃

    That’s mental!!!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,383
    It would have been nice if we’d seen the repercussions of him humiliating them though: if he’d escaped before the enquiry and M had to answer for it. But we don’t so there’s no humiliation expressed.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    It would have been nice if we’d seen the repercussions of him humiliating them though: if he’d escaped before the enquiry and M had to answer for it. But we don’t so there’s no humiliation expressed.

    No humiliation?? On MI6´s watch a dangerous prisoner escapes and wreaks havoc in London killing many innocent people and storming a judicial hearing? How is that not humiliating?

    Of course Silva´s plan was not entirely succesful. The plan was to kill M. Would that have been humiliating enough for you?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It would have been nice if we’d seen the repercussions of him humiliating them though: if he’d escaped before the enquiry and M had to answer for it. But we don’t so there’s no humiliation expressed.

    No humiliation?? On MI6´s watch a dangerous prisoner escapes and wreaks havoc in London killing many innocent people and storming a judicial hearing? How is that not humiliating?

    It may well be, but we never see the repercussions of that or it expressed: we don't see anyone feeling the humiliation. No Freddie Gray walking in and saying "we're the laughing stock of the intelligence community" :D
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It would have been nice if we’d seen the repercussions of him humiliating them though: if he’d escaped before the enquiry and M had to answer for it. But we don’t so there’s no humiliation expressed.

    No humiliation?? On MI6´s watch a dangerous prisoner escapes and wreaks havoc in London killing many innocent people and storming a judicial hearing? How is that not humiliating?

    It may well be, but we never see the repercussions of that or it expressed: we don't see anyone feeling the humiliation. No Freddie Gray walking in and saying "we're the laughing stock of the intelligence community" :D

    Some things are often best left to the imagination ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Well, not in storytelling.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Do you really think the film would have been better if they had included a scene with an MI6 official saying "damn, how humiliating"? People are concerned with M and Bond at this point and most people are clever enough to figure out that this was humiliating. I am all for exposition in film, but I also appreciate not being treated like I am ignorant and not able to think for myself...
  • Posts: 4,615
    The strength with Silva's character is that his motivation is personal and, therefore, we can forgive the script regarding him acting with no logic and rationality. Silva also clearly knew or suspected of M's fondness for Bond (and vice versa) and, therefore, a sense of jealousy and, therefore, a further lack logic re his relationship with Bond. It really gives the writers more leeway IMHO.
    PS It's not co-incIdence that this is pretty clearly laid out when we first meet Silva. It's a scene where you clearly see he has "lost it". ("back then, I was her favourite"). It's wonderful script writing IMHO
  • Posts: 7,507
    I have no problems whatsoever with Silva's plan being to get captured. What is less believable are the incredible circumstances and pin point timing. There is no possible way he could have planned to be captured and escape at the exact time of M's hearing. However you could make a claim that the timing was simply a remarkable bonus. OTT circumstances of timing for the sake of drama and symbolism is after all very common in action films in general.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,610
    mtm wrote: »
    That must be so weird!
    suavejmf wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    Hey, german speaking people know articles from verbs (mostly, that is). :--) About the audiences' response I don't know, as I only saw DAD years later.

    But it's even worse, as Brosnan is dubbed by the voice of Al Pacino (and Kevin Costner). And to close the circle, Lazenby got the same voice as Connery (which makes the "This never happened ..." line a bit weirder), while in DN Connery gets the voice of Clint Eastwood ("I had to")... 🙃
    That’s mental!!!
    Indeed! Another 'mental' thing is that in DN, Spectre is given the silly sounding acronym GOFTER, while in the following movies it's called Phantom and in SP it's Spectre.
    And their no. 2, Dr. No, can't count up to three as he calls Terrorism, Extortion and Revenge the four cornerstones of power. 🙃

    I also think that the humiliation of MI6, M, Q and Bond is sufficiently expressed in Silva's escape. The scene with Silva approaching while M gives her speech is my favourite part of the movie - except for the train sequence -, because of the great music score.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It would have been nice if we’d seen the repercussions of him humiliating them though: if he’d escaped before the enquiry and M had to answer for it. But we don’t so there’s no humiliation expressed.

    No humiliation?? On MI6´s watch a dangerous prisoner escapes and wreaks havoc in London killing many innocent people and storming a judicial hearing? How is that not humiliating?

    It may well be, but we never see the repercussions of that or it expressed: we don't see anyone feeling the humiliation. No Freddie Gray walking in and saying "we're the laughing stock of the intelligence community" :D

    Some things are often best left to the imagination ;)

    Yes i don't like it when they try to spoon feed everything. For example when Bond tells severine "What we're you 12,13? ".
    At that moment we knew Silva has done some really bad things in the past, a subtle nod is enough for me.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,383
    jobo wrote: »
    Do you really think the film would have been better if they had included a scene with an MI6 official saying "damn, how humiliating"? People are concerned with M and Bond at this point and most people are clever enough to figure out that this was humiliating. I am all for exposition in film, but I also appreciate not being treated like I am ignorant and not able to think for myself...

    The point is never made: I don't consider it to be a big humiliating moment because no-one expresses it.
    Maybe everyone is actually really understanding about it: we have no idea.

    It's not 'dumbing down' or 'spoon feeding' to be given reactions to events in films: that's what drama is. Otherwise you could say it was spoon feeding to show us Bond crying over Tracy's body at the end of OHMSS: we could have figured out for ourselves that he'd be sad, why not just end the film with the gunshot? etc.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    There is that old trope of flashing headlines that could have been useful here.

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    Sun-Fun-4-2.png

    Sun-Fun-1.png
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited July 2020 Posts: 5,970
    So I'm gonna share this again.

    Sorry to those that have already seen it multiple times, but I'm still really proud of it :)

  • edited July 2020 Posts: 2,165
    Is Skyfall the best 007 movie...? It certainly has a lot going for it:
    • A great story, that whilst upon thinking about it in any real detail doesn't make too much sense, moves along with such pace that you go along for the ride.
    • A great thematic structure running through the film. It know what it is about and where it is heading, and the themes it wants to explore (SP by comparison does not).
    • A great supporting cast who bring their A game. Bardem in particular is superb in the role of Silva.
    • Craig is by far more comfortable in the role and gives a great performance. As with CR, he has some emotional and thematic heft to play around with.
    • It is easily the best looking Bond film ever. Deakins god like talents do not go to waste.
    • The epilogue, in MI6, is wonderful.
    • I love the use of the Bulldog through the film.
    • I am in the minority but I really like Tom Newman's score.
    • Adele provides a series worthy title song. Likewise the accompanying titles by Kleinman are great.
    • As a collective whole its just so dang entertaining and such a well constructed film. If it wasn't, I perhaps would be more nit-picky with the narrative, but its a mark of a good film that it can overcome that and deliver a thrilling experience. Which SF definitely is.
      /list]

      It also has some weaknesses:
      • The CGI throughout is very inconsistent. The head replacements for the stunts and the helicopters on Silva's island are pretty poor.
      • Not to bigger fan of what happens to Severine. Like the character, and I get they wanted a 'Fleming-esque' femme fatale, but they should've let her live.
      • Bond just getting in the shower is problematic. Again it could've easily been solved by him just knocking on the door and being allowed in.
      • Whilst, as I said above, I do like TN's score, I do with the Adele theme was represented in it more.
      • /list]
  • 007 movies were never about realism and self examinations of the characters. Angst and drama.

    Skyfall will be the first Bond movie I will be sitting out of in my life. It looks like some overdone artsy drama. That camerawork alone looks like they are begging for a Oscar nod for cinematography. Seriously doesn't even look like Bond anymore. Sad. He can't leave soon enough for my tastes.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Skyfall is battling with CR...

    My top three:

    OHMSS
    FRWL
    CR/SF

    SF was already top ten since I saw it. Quickly climbed into top 5 Bond films. And then chipped away-- every time I re-watched it, it continued to elevate...

    I saw it with a live orchestra this past February and that's when it started its death-match with CR.

    I'm surprised when I hear that others felt there was no humour. When I saw this in February, a sold-out audience seem to revel in the fun and humour that the film depicted.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    It's not top five for me but I think Skyfall is up there with my most exciting opening night viewings. The closest in terms of audience atmosphere since then has been the two recent Avengers flicks. Everyone was swept up in it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    First time I saw SF I disliked it. Second time I disliked it more. It's well acted, and well crafted, but it just doesn't sit well with me. I dislike MR equally but for diametrically opposed reasons.
    OTOH, I severely disliked QOS first time out, but it has since become one of my favourites.
    At least I own SF on DVD (MR is the only Bond I don't own).
  • Posts: 12,466
    I’ve probably posted here before, but...

    It’s excellent. Single best Bond film? Not quite for me, but it’s right up there, and counts as a worthy contender in my eyes. There is so much I love about it:

    -Craig’s Bond performance. While I don’t rank it ahead of his excellent turns in CR and QOS, he does an amazing job once again, completing a turkey as one would say in bowling. He find a little bit more lightness for his Bond while still staying true to his grittier, harsher take on the character (before going overboard on the silly in SP).
    -Judi Dench’s M gets her best turn last. So many great scenes in her time with Brosnan and Craig, but everything in SF done with her stands out the most to me.
    -Silva is Craig’s best Bond villain and one of the series’ overall best villains. He is creepy, unhinged, and grabs my attention every second every time.
    -Really solid action. A very good PTS, awesome sequence in Shanghai, and explosive finale in Scotland are my personal highlights.
    -Roger Deakins doing what he does.
    -Thomas Newman’s solid score. It’s not very well-liked around here, but I dig it. It only got old in SP when so much got reused.
    -Adele’s title song is an instant classic, and one of the series’ best.
    -A great balance of old and new. The film balances a more modern action/drama flavor with classic Bond material, which includes a great new Q and Moneypenny. SP goes too far with it and forgets what plays most to Craig’s strengths.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    jobo wrote: »
    I have no problems whatsoever with Silva's plan being to get captured. What is less believable are the incredible circumstances and pin point timing. There is no possible way he could have planned to be captured and escape at the exact time of M's hearing. However you could make a claim that the timing was simply a remarkable bonus. OTT circumstances of timing for the sake of drama and symbolism is after all very common in action films in general.

    Sure he could, With predictive analytics and the right algorithm, all Silva needed to do was program the correct code and computers would have made the decisions based on every conceivable circumstance. If you don't think this is possible, then go to your basic computer game in which you are playing against the computer. It makes thousands (or millions) of decisions in response to what you do.

    I don't find anything that Silva does inconceivable if we concede his computer brilliance.
  • Posts: 6,709
    TripAces wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I have no problems whatsoever with Silva's plan being to get captured. What is less believable are the incredible circumstances and pin point timing. There is no possible way he could have planned to be captured and escape at the exact time of M's hearing. However you could make a claim that the timing was simply a remarkable bonus. OTT circumstances of timing for the sake of drama and symbolism is after all very common in action films in general.

    Sure he could, With predictive analytics and the right algorithm, all Silva needed to do was program the correct code and computers would have made the decisions based on every conceivable circumstance. If you don't think this is possible, then go to your basic computer game in which you are playing against the computer. It makes thousands (or millions) of decisions in response to what you do.

    I don't find anything that Silva does inconceivable if we concede his computer brilliance.

    That's the exact argument I've been using for years ;) After all, it's his area of expertise, isn't it? A bit like a quantum computer algorithms predicting the future in the short term. Perfectly doable.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 984
    No. Not even close. It does have one of the best first halves of any Bond film, but as soon as we leave Silva's island and head back to the UK, it loses its way.
  • Posts: 4,615
    As soon as the writers decided to try a different route, you could guarantee that some fans would reject that route but the question was, would they compensate by pleasing others. The box office provides the answer regarding was it a wise choice. SF was a real gamble and I completely understand why it gets a thumbs down from many fans. It's one of the most radical Bond film's of the series. Like OHMSS, the debate will go on for decades. If you like a good cry at the movies, there are only two Bond movies that tick that box (although we may have a third on the way?).
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    patb wrote: »
    As soon as the writers decided to try a different route, you could guarantee that some fans would reject that route but the question was, would they compensate by pleasing others. The box office provides the answer regarding was it a wise choice. SF was a real gamble and I completely understand why it gets a thumbs down from many fans. It's one of the most radical Bond film's of the series. Like OHMSS, the debate will go on for decades. If you like a good cry at the movies, there are only two Bond movies that tick that box (although we may have a third on the way?).

    Oh, we do, at least in my case. LOL Being such a DC fan, I will cry like a baby at the credits, no matter what happens at the end of the film. It will be a curtain closing on his tenure.
  • Posts: 1,917
    patb wrote: »
    As soon as the writers decided to try a different route, you could guarantee that some fans would reject that route but the question was, would they compensate by pleasing others. The box office provides the answer regarding was it a wise choice. SF was a real gamble and I completely understand why it gets a thumbs down from many fans. It's one of the most radical Bond film's of the series. Like OHMSS, the debate will go on for decades. If you like a good cry at the movies, there are only two Bond movies that tick that box (although we may have a third on the way?).

    I don't know, I think SF's trajectory may go downward. Will future generations really be drawn to it? OHMSS is an emotional experience and resistance to Lazenby is what set so many off on it and its perception as a failure. But it never fails to get me in the end.

    Can't say so about SF. I felt no more emotional attachment than I do in other Bond films. CR got me much more as it was fulfilling great source material for the screen and bringing it into the modern day. In SF, a lot seems to hinge on one's feelings for Dench's M and I've never been a fan. M seems to be the star of SF, not so much Bond.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,032
    Oof. I don't even know if I posted on this thread before, and don't feel like searching. So I apologize for possible repetitions. SF was a major experience of enthusiasm both times I watched it at a cinema, first in London (Leicester Square on the first night of the general release) and then in Hamburg (at the only original-version theatre). Actually, ovations in some scenes (the disclosure of the DB5 in the garage being the most pronounced). People waiting on their seats until the closing credits ended. That's what defines SF's effect for me. Just what cinema should be about. F...k logic, full speed ahead.

    And no, SF is not the best movie of the series. FRWL stands in the way, permanently. But SF keeps being my No. 2. (Close contenders in that group: CR and GF. All others are next-tier.)
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    I just watched The Social Dilemma on Netflix. So much of this documentary confirms what I have been saying about Silva all along. No, Silva was not employing social media, but he was able to manipulate human behavior through algorithms. Arguments that Silva's "plan" was unrealistic don't actually stack up.
  • edited September 2020 Posts: 3,327
    I really liked SF when I first saw it, but now I find it difficult to sit through.

    For a film that attempts a does of realism and arty pretentiousness, the flaws in the plot holes are pretty evident (as many have mentioned before), and is also highly unrealistic.

    The tube suddenly appearing, as though Silva knew exactly that it would come through the tunnel, at the same time he knew Bond would be exactly in the same spot, as Silva was in exactly the right spot where he could escape. It really is taking it too far.

    And Bond falling from such a high height off a bridge in the PTS that he would be dead instantly on impact.

    Both these moments alone overshadow the unrealistic eras of both Moore and Brosnan, which don't really pretend to be anything other than escapist entertaining action flicks.

    I don't like a lot of the whispery dialogue between Bond and Moneypenny, the fact that this is ageing Bond at the end of his career, washed up, yet only 2 films earlier this is Bond at the very beginning of his career (with the follow up QoS as part 2), so this is really the next instalment right after Bond Begins, and yet he is already seemingly nearing the end of his career, burnt up and mojo lost.

    I also don't like the direction, or the way Craig looks in this film. The grey skinhead look is light years away from the Fleming Bond, and light years away from the cinematic Bond. Newman's soundtrack is pretty crap and lazy in many parts, and there is too much of a wannabee Nolan Batman feel throughout, particularly Silva as a poor mans Joker.

    The more I think about it, the more I despise both SF and SP, and Mendes has to take a lot of the blame for that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited September 2020 Posts: 8,183
    The tube suddenly appearing, as though Silva knew exactly that it would come through the tunnel, at the same time he knew Bond would be exactly in the same spot, as Silva was in exactly the right spot where he could escape. It really is taking it too far.

    I see this get brought up a lot among fans, but I think it's a false fan narrative. It's never stated that Silva actually planned for Bond to chase him all the way up to the very spot a train was about to crash into. If you want to make sense of why Silva would have had a train crash there at all, the reason is very simple: Creating a diversion for the authorities while heads over to M's position to attack.

    The only thing that Silva had planned out was a route of escape, for his goons to be in key areas to assist, and the detonation of a bomb causing a major crash. There's nothing suggested that Silva planned for Bond to chase him, because there doesn't appear to be any purpose for that. It was just happenstance that Bond was standing right under the site of a oncoming crash, and you can see Silva being highly amused knowing that.
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