NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,714
    He's goading Bond. Just like he does again in NTTD. Mr White and Silva were behind the previous three films, and they worked for Blofeld. That's it.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,593
    Ah, thank you @jobo and @matt_u!
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    On the other hand, in NTTD Blofeld went on full revenge mode.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,593
    Well, Blofeld's hatred of Bond would only have increased after the events of Spectre, and the Vesper Tomb and Spectre Party Gas plots are small potatoes to other Spectre initiatives such as Nine Eyes.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    Yeah. Just think about the way he looks at Bond kissing Swann on the bridge. Pure envy and hate. Already plotting his revenge. I’m so glad they tied NTTD to SP this way.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 440
    TripAces wrote: »

    The connection between Fleming and Jung has been documented in his biographies...

    To me, to better understand Craig's Bond is to understand Jung. And I knew this Bond was different from that standpoint almost immediately, in CR, during the PTS...

    Bond is continuously battling this duality within himself and explains why, so often, he leaves MI6 or feigns death, only to go back. I could go further into Bond's decisions and choices, but the scene in Jamaica, when Bond is contemplating going to Cuba is key and really demonstrates how Craig's Bond struggles with duty and self. The scene in the bathroom in CR, when Bond cleans and gathers himself after the stairwell fight really demonstrates this, as well.

    This duality within Bond is also illustrated when Madeleine is drunk in the hotel room in Tangier in SP. She looks at him and says, "There are two of you. Two Jameses." Right? Indeed.

    NTTD works for me because in death, Bond achieves what he likely could not in life. His split selves will go their separate ways. The assassin has died; but the myth lives on in the stories that Madeleine will tell Mathilde.

    And then she'll take her along to watch Bond 26 - see Daddy didn't die after all!

    But seriously folks

    "Achieves what he... could not in life" and what would that be exactly?
    Where in Craig's movies does James Bond say he wants to live on as a myth?
    How does "dying" substitute for "living a life of peace and contentment with a family"?
    Out of two awful choices he chooses the one he considers least awful, that's all.

    "His split selves will go their separate ways". Agent Bond is dead and Bond the man is dead, same destination. Sydney Carton had nothing to live for, Bond did (because once you've opened the Pandora's box that contains nanobots and invisible cars, a Q cure for nanobots is just SOP)

    In any case I'm finding it very hard to believe that the people who make James Bond are this deeply philosophically sophisticated.

    For a start, 99.999% of the audience (including Oscar voters) will have been completely oblivious to all this symbolism you speak of, and the producers know that, so why would they bother to go into that level of detail?

    For a second, if they were really that clever and subtle they wouldn't make the kind of plotting errors and script weaknesses which seem to occur somewhere in pretty much every James Bond movie I've seen, Craig's included.

    The same people who gave us the Quantum organisation, then ditched it, then retrospectively rolled it up into Spectre were all on the same page with regard to developing Jung symbolism all the way from CR to NTTD?

    I find that hard to believe

    I think, in reality, a little bit of Jung went a long way with Fleming, and I don't believe it was central to the character either then or now

    Introspective Fleming wanted to better understand himself, Babs and Craig wanted to turn James Bond into "Sex and the City" with explosions, and poor old Jung just wants to rest in peace.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    “A book read by a thousand different people is a thousand different books.”

    "Everybody asks me what things mean in my films. This is terrible! An artist doesn't have to answer for his meanings. I don't think so deeply about my work - I don't know what my symbols may represent. What matters to me is that they arouse feelings, any feelings you like, based on whatever your inner response might be."

    ― Andrei Tarkovsky

    While I'm reporting this quotes from the greatest director ever, I'm holding a book titled "James Bond explained to cinephiles" where there's a chapter that deals with all the philosophical aspects and symbolism work within SP.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,593
    Nice quote @matt_u, like it a lot.
    I think the only *real* scripting errors were in Spectre.
    As has been discussed relentlessly, the self contained stories of CR, QOS, SF all logically work fine if you either just watch the film, or spend any amount of time thinking about them.
    The intention, when using symbolism, isn't that the audience recognizes the symbolism; the symbolism is that for a reason, it communicates an idea, a story.
    I guess they don't care about winning an Oscar...? Not sure why that part is in your comment.
    I'm not convinced by you that Babs and Craig wanted to "turn James Bond into "Sex and the City" with explosions".
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 68
    My take on the ending is easy, just because it’s a sad ending and one that hits you in the gut doesn’t make it a bad ending! On the contrary it’s a risk the producers took and it does pack a punch and “made you feel it” (CR quote). I for one love the fact that as an audience you come to the unreal realization that he’s not going to make it out of this one and I think it was done brilliantly! If they were EVER going to kill a Bond off it would be Craig’s more gritty, realistic Bond. They’ve done that now and we can go a whole different direction with a clean slate now! Brilliant!!
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 440
    RC7 wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    I love the fact Bond took a hailstorm of missiles to the face, yet there are still fans suggesting he’s alive. I would say I’m surprised but it seems symptomatic of today’s society where a fair portion seem incapable of accepting reality.

    Lol, since when was James Bond "reality"?

    The reality of the plot. Bond died.

    Yes. It was confirmed in the film, and confirmed several times after the fact by those creatively in charge of the film.

    So what, it's a Bond film, where villains are able to build lairs inside volcanos without anyone noticing and our hero can improvise a parasail and surf tsunami waves or fly helicopters in ways that defy the laws of physics

    So of course he can survive a hailstorm of missiles to the face, that he doesn't is solely because that is not the intention of the producers (at the moment), nothing to do with what does or does not constitute "reality"

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,593
    Agreed, @JazzyBond. In fact, in most cinema, an ending that hits you in the gut would make it a "good" ending!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,480
    I agree with you, @JazzyBond . I thoroughly enjoy this film and find it rewarding. The ending is difficult, sad, yet truly fitting for this Bond, his personal story. That matters. That is why overall I find this one to be extraordinary and appropriate. If they were ever going to kill Bond off, this is the actor and the story arc to do it justice. And I believe they do.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,078
    slide_99 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    But what subversion?

    The way every single Craig movie spends its runtime deconstructing Craig's Bond and then reconstructing him for the final scene only, promising audiences a proper Bond movie next time out. It worked with CR, but they repeated it for another 3 movies, and now with NTTD they've completed the deconstruction of Craig's Bond by blowing him up.

    In a way, the CraigNotBond trolls from way back in 2006- people I hated back then- have been proven right because of NTTD. Craig wasn't really Bond, he was the guy who tried to be Bond and then died. NTTD's ending renders the whole point of the CR reboot pointless. It started off by stating, "This is how Bond became Bond," but now it's, "Here's why this particular version of Bond is tragic and has to sacrifice himself for family."
    The subversion is less about gun barrels and martinis and more about altering Bond as a character: making him Blofeld’s foster brother, a family man, a father and, ultimately, a tragic figure. Bond had his issues in pre-Craig films, but the only time he was ever tragic before was for a minute or so at the end of OHMSS. This is like filling a cake with baked beans and insisting it is still a cake because it has icing on top.

    Yeah, this. The Craig era has all the trappings of Bond, all the superificial stuff that Mendes was obsessed with (Goldfinger Aston Martin since he had a toy one as a kid), but in my opinion there's a big, empty hole in the center of the Craig era, and that's Craig's Bond himself. It's partially his own fault but it's more due to the producers not having a clear idea of what to do with his character after CR.

    I have been mulling over NTTD and was wondering did Craig get bigger than the character in the end?

    Wasn't it Cubby who said "No actor is bigger than James Bond.." ? It seems Craig managed it. He seemed to be allowed a lot more input and control than any of the other Bond actors.

    I've mostly loved Craig's era but after NTTD I just wondered if it was the case of him overshadowing the character...?

    I didn't really think this until NTTD, but I agree with you. It appears like Babs pulled out all the stops to allow Craig to return one last time, but it seems she did this from day one, even persuading him for CR, which he was reluctant to do at first even back then.

    Fortunately he had no input in the script with CR, which is why it is one of the best films in the franchise. But I'm hazarding a guess Craig has been behind all the personal backstory and family angst ever since - M dying, Bond's family home, Brofeld, Bond being a father, and Bond dying.

    In SF it was palatable, but in SP and NTTD they pushed this angle way too far, IMO.

    Thanks @jetsetwilly007 it's also interesting that Craig got a co-producer credit on SP and NTTD. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure no other Bond actor got anything like this.

    Aside from that i'm really interested in Danny Boyle's version of his involvement with the film.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 440
    Nice quote @matt_u, like it a lot.
    I think the only *real* scripting errors were in Spectre.
    As has been discussed relentlessly, the self contained stories of CR, QOS, SF all logically work fine if you either just watch the film, or spend any amount of time thinking about them.
    I almost always come out of a Bond movie thinking something was nonsense. I guess if you went to the review pages of this site and looked for reviews by people who didn't like that particular movie you will find something
    The intention, when using symbolism, isn't that the audience recognizes the symbolism; the symbolism is that for a reason, it communicates an idea, a story.
    Que?
    If the audience doesn't recognise the symbolism, then who is the idea being communicated too?
    I guess they don't care about winning an Oscar...? Not sure why that part is in your comment.
    I've often read it suggested that Babs has an ambition to make an Oscar worthy Bond movie, SF was one attempt, I think NTTD is another
    I'm not convinced by you that Babs and Craig wanted to "turn James Bond into "Sex and the City" with explosions".
    It's called hyperbole
    "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 488
    It's also interesting that Craig got a co-producer credit on SP and NTTD. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure no other Bond actor got anything like this.

    Aside from that i'm really interested in Danny Boyle's version of his involvement with the film.

    Daniel Craig is one of the three co-producers. Co-producer ranks under associate producer (one on NTTD, Gregg Wilson, who had this title since Skyfall), executive producer (Chris Brigham, a newcomer to the franchise) and producer (Barbara and Michael).

    And being a producer on a project means two things:
    - you have some actual input on the project, either financially or creatively, that is a major reason for the project to exist
    - you're getting residuals through the PGA or whatever system is in place

    The residuals system in cinema is extremely flawed, due to the long documented methods in Hollywood of "creative accountancy", which make even huge hits stay in the red, so they don't have to pay a bunch of people, even in the main cast. But if you have a deal as a producer, you're making points on the gross revenue, not the net revenue, so you're getting a cut of the box office, whatever it is. While these things have to be negotiated when you're just an actor.

    There are actors who play a huge part behind the scenes to get scripts rewritten, but don't get any credit as a producer, especially as some actors prefer to get a fixed fee rather than also betting on the box office. But it's not surprising at all that after the huge box office for Skyfall, to which he was a main factor, Craig would get a bigger cut on the next entries, which the co-producer title allows. But the directions taken in NTTD have probably very little to do with him being co-number 5 in the producing hierarchy from the credits.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,593
    @Seve If you come out of every Bond film thinking something is nonsense, that’s fair, but that’s a reflection of you, not necessarily the film. Not everyone will come to that conclusion. The symbolism thing, I just meant, the audience isn’t meant to go “oh, that’s Jungian symbolism!”, they’re meant to respond to what that symbolism means to communicate (“oh, the duality and use of mirrors is interesting” or whatever it may be). Maybe I’m not articulating well regarding that.
    Also, I understand your hyperbolization, I just think the point you’re trying to make with it is wrong.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,036
    All this talk about Spectre vs No Time to Die has me thinking that someone is going to do a long, extended cut mashup of the very best elements of SP and NTTD into one film…

    Replace ending of NTTD with Bond and Madeline driving off together. Is it feasible?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,593
    All this talk about Spectre vs No Time to Die has me thinking that someone is going to do a long, extended cut mashup of the very best elements of SP and NTTD into one film…

    Replace ending of NTTD with Bond and Madeline driving off together. Is it feasible?

    No, not after everything that happens in NTTD.
  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 488
    Most of the villains tend to be negative doubles of the hero. For Bond, they resonate with some dark areas of his psyche, some death wish he has. But they're intended to make him stand out, especially when they say that they're not so different after all, because we see that they don't have principles, or that they're cheating to succeed. Then, you can get Jung to theorize and formalize all of this, but these things are quite obvious for the common audience in the film.

    Safin was a guy who wanted to keep Madeleine as some sort of slave, because he felt she had a debt to him after he saved her life. Bond rejected Madeleine when he assumed she had lied to him but, after they're reunited, treat her as an equal (something that the character hadn't always done in previous iterations with other women). You don't need to read Jung to get that the way the villain behave highlights what Bond does right.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    All this talk about Spectre vs No Time to Die has me thinking that someone is going to do a long, extended cut mashup of the very best elements of SP and NTTD into one film…

    Replace ending of NTTD with Bond and Madeline driving off together. Is it feasible?

    No, not after everything that happens in NTTD.

    Right answer. I'm tired.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,593
    It’s also important to note that Q looks at Bond’s vitals from the smart blood and they’re all zero. Unless the missiles broke his blood?

    Maybe BloodBreak can be the name of the next film.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    As an aside, why do so many call her Babs? Is that what her family call her? Is it done as a means of friendly respect or to denigrate her? It always rubs me the wrong way. And do people complain about Michael as much? Why no.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,593
    As an aside, why do so many call her Babs? Is that what her family call her? Is it done as a means of friendly respect or to denigrate her? It always rubs me the wrong way. And do people complain about Michael as much? Why no.

    It’s short for Barbara. Very casual way to refer to her; hopefully no one in the forums would call her that to her face unless they were close friends! :))
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    It's also interesting that Craig got a co-producer credit on SP and NTTD. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure no other Bond actor got anything like this.

    Aside from that i'm really interested in Danny Boyle's version of his involvement with the film.

    Daniel Craig is one of the three co-producers. Co-producer ranks under associate producer (one on NTTD, Gregg Wilson, who had this title since Skyfall), executive producer (Chris Brigham, a newcomer to the franchise) and producer (Barbara and Michael).

    And being a producer on a project means two things:
    - you have some actual input on the project, either financially or creatively, that is a major reason for the project to exist
    - you're getting residuals through the PGA or whatever system is in place

    The residuals system in cinema is extremely flawed, due to the long documented methods in Hollywood of "creative accountancy", which make even huge hits stay in the red, so they don't have to pay a bunch of people, even in the main cast. But if you have a deal as a producer, you're making points on the gross revenue, not the net revenue, so you're getting a cut of the box office, whatever it is. While these things have to be negotiated when you're just an actor.

    There are actors who play a huge part behind the scenes to get scripts rewritten, but don't get any credit as a producer, especially as some actors prefer to get a fixed fee rather than also betting on the box office. But it's not surprising at all that after the huge box office for Skyfall, to which he was a main factor, Craig would get a bigger cut on the next entries, which the co-producer title allows. But the directions taken in NTTD have probably very little to do with him being co-number 5 in the producing hierarchy from the credits.
    Thanks for this. It comes up a lot, people questioning Daniel's involvement.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited October 2021 Posts: 698
    jobo wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Benjamin wrote: »
    I've only seen Spectre once, but I really liked it.

    I'm really puzzled why so many Bond fans rate this one so poorly. By any chance would anyone be willing to offer a brief explanation for the dislike directed toward Spectre? Is it the length? The Blofeld plot? Something else?

    Blofeld's grand scheme was to found a secret terrorist organization, somehow bring about the events of CR-SF (still don't buy it) to eventually lure Bond to his crater base so he can drill holes into his head, all to get back at Bond because daddy didn't love him enough. That's literally more retarded than the plot to Die Another Day.


    That is a common misinterpretation. The film never implies that the purpose of all Blofeld's crimes is centered around getting back at Bond.

    It definitely implies that Blofeld's ruined childhood was the impetus for his behavior. There's no other point to the adoptive brother backstory. If the filmmakers wanted the Nine Eyes stuff to be the primary scheme, they shouldn't have devoted so much screen time to the family angle.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,593
    slide_99 wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Benjamin wrote: »
    I've only seen Spectre once, but I really liked it.

    I'm really puzzled why so many Bond fans rate this one so poorly. By any chance would anyone be willing to offer a brief explanation for the dislike directed toward Spectre? Is it the length? The Blofeld plot? Something else?

    Blofeld's grand scheme was to found a secret terrorist organization, somehow bring about the events of CR-SF (still don't buy it) to eventually lure Bond to his crater base so he can drill holes into his head, all to get back at Bond because daddy didn't love him enough. That's literally more retarded than the plot to Die Another Day.


    That is a common misinterpretation. The film never implies that the purpose of all Blofeld's crimes is centered around getting back at Bond.

    It definitely implies that Blofeld's ruined childhood was the impetus for his behavior. There's no other point to the adoptive brother backstory. If the filmmakers wanted the Nine Eyes stuff to be the primary scheme, they shouldn't have devoted so much screen time to the family angle.

    Seems like jobo is saying the family stuff isn’t responsible for all of Blofeld’s activity, and you’re arguing that the family stuff is more prominent than the non family stuff. Both valid, but not the same topic.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Seve wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    I love the fact Bond took a hailstorm of missiles to the face, yet there are still fans suggesting he’s alive. I would say I’m surprised but it seems symptomatic of today’s society where a fair portion seem incapable of accepting reality.

    Lol, since when was James Bond "reality"?

    The reality of the plot. Bond died.

    Yes. It was confirmed in the film, and confirmed several times after the fact by those creatively in charge of the film.

    So what, it's a Bond film, where villains are able to build lairs inside volcanos without anyone noticing and our hero can improvise a parasail and surf tsunami waves or fly helicopters in ways that defy the laws of physics

    So of course he can survive a hailstorm of missiles to the face, that he doesn't is solely because that is not the intention of the producers (at the moment), nothing to do with what does or does not constitute "reality"

    The story concludes with Bond dying. That is the reality of this film.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,593
    Yes. @Seve , he could have survived, given everything you mentioned, but he didn’t.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,480
    As an aside, why do so many call her Babs? Is that what her family call her? Is it done as a means of friendly respect or to denigrate her? It always rubs me the wrong way. And do people complain about Michael as much? Why no.

    It’s short for Barbara. Very casual way to refer to her; hopefully no one in the forums would call her that to her face unless they were close friends! :))

    I know it is shorthand for Barbara. But I read it as disparaging a great majority of the time. NOT always, but majority, is my impression. People complain and call her Babs. People complain and call her Barbara simply does not land the same way with me.

    I don't like it, the whining and anger and then "Babs" this "Babs" that. Just wanted to state that clearly for once as it has always, for years, bugged me that tone that too often goes along with people have negative comments directed towards Barbara use the friendly chummy shorthand "Babs" and I read it as disrespectful too often. And it would be like calling Michael "Mikey". Shorthand but sarcastic or disrespectful.

    There, I've had my say on it. But that was overdue. Carry on.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    As an aside, why do so many call her Babs? Is that what her family call her? Is it done as a means of friendly respect or to denigrate her? It always rubs me the wrong way. And do people complain about Michael as much? Why no.

    It’s short for Barbara. Very casual way to refer to her; hopefully no one in the forums would call her that to her face unless they were close friends! :))

    I know it is shorthand for Barbara. But I read it as disparaging a great majority of the time. NOT always, but majority, is my impression. People complain and call her Babs. People complain and call her Barbara simply does not land the same way with me.

    I don't like it, the whining and anger and then "Babs" this "Babs" that. Just wanted to state that clearly for once as it has always, for years, bugged me that tone that too often goes along with people have negative comments directed towards Barbara use the friendly chummy shorthand "Babs" and I read it as disrespectful too often. And it would be like calling Michael "Mikey". Shorthand but sarcastic or disrespectful.

    There, I've had my say on it. But that was overdue. Carry on.

    Says the poster with 4 in their name instead of For ;) ;) (I'm just teasing, of course)
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