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NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Critical Reaction and Box Office Performance

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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    Bond has already taken notes from Marvel and not quite pulled it off as well.
    Marvel creates a connected universe. EoN copy and have all the Craig films connected.
    Marvel gives Wolverine and Tony Stark daughters for their respective final films. EoN copy and give Bond a daughter for Craig's final film.

    They need to have Bond taking inspiration from the books. Just use the source material and adapt so it works. We have untapped Fleming works and his successors to look to. I'd never suggest making a Bond film is remotely easy but it doesn't have to be as difficult as they've made them out to be.

    His successors? The continuation novels have as much legitimacy as the original film scripts. There’s bits they could nick, but they’re not the source material, and I doubt they’ll ever adapt one properly.

    And having the Craig films connected wasn’t copying Marvel. The Craig films started first remember. They were always connected, and a direct sequel isn’t the same thing as a universe. I don’t think those specific plot points were copied either. No Time To Die was written before the last Avengers film came out, and I’d imagine they gave him a daughter because it fit the themes they’d been exploring throughout this run.

    If the Craig films were inspired by anything, I think it’s Bourne (QoS) and Nolan’s Batman films (SF). But even there it’s not 1:1, and I think Bond has done a good job of carving out its own path in recent years, and positioning itself as this classy, awards season sort of blockbuster, that comes along every few years. Nothing like Marvel’s workman like films, nor the others trying to ape them (remember when Fast and Furious was about cars?) and the various failed universes that tried to do the same thing, imo.

    I don’t think they’ve made it out to be difficult either, and they still seem to be doing a good job from my perspective. As said above, NTTD is on track to be the 3rd highest grossing film ever in the UK. It’s got decent audience scores and strong reviews that praise it for its ambition and how many elements it successfully juggled. It’s a shame it’s not doing that well in the US, but I don’t know why we’re talking about it like its a failure, and I don’t know why fans think just sticking to the books would lead to higher box office receipts. The Craig films have been the most successful Bonds since the 60s, despite deviating from Fleming in significant ways.

    Yes, I agree with you on all points. I'm actually happily surprised NTTD is doing this well overall during an ongoing pandemic, with some countries really mired in the virus still (including America).
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 541
    Matt007 wrote: »
    How do we all feel about purvis and Wade continuing.

    How much of the weaker films is due to their writing vs. demands from productions and directors?

    I could easily see a situation where they're capable of writing a masterpiece like Casino Royale, but have to write dumb plot because of higher-ups demanding things from them.
  • 9IW9IW
    Posts: 59
    Pandemic. Six year wait. Rise of streaming. Stiffer than expected competition on first two weekends. Prior film not as well received. Perhaps some word of mouth/spoiler issues. And still doing very well at the domestic box office and terrific internationally. I don't think EON/MGM needs to panic, or to even contemplate some major paradigm shift for the franchise. They already are looking at a new lead and more than likely new supporting cast. There is plenty of time to digest the market and this film's place in it and plan for the next offering.

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,480
    Yes, I agree @9IW and EON have had years to think about what direction to go with Bond 26. They are on it; we just are not privy to know any of what they are thinking yet.

    Purvis and Wade - I am happy to have them on board as part of the writing team. I do want Cary back to direct and I hope he helps with the writing (Well, he would; wouldn't he? I cannot see him not having a hand in it). Happy to have Phoebe W-B back, too.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    Maybe Bond's influence is waning in America.

    I briefly mentioned to my coworkers I was at the new Bond movie and they were like "oh ok".
    If this were 9 years ago and I said "I saw Skyfall"; they'd probably be like "Oh, how is it? I've heard great things."

    Marvel has really turned pop culture on its head. Even Star Wars isn’t the IP behemoth it once was.

    Is the US too big a market to ignore? Because while I appreciate that a change in direction is needed after Craig, I really don’t want Bond taking notes from Marvel and all those other superhero films. If they stripped the budget down, would the international numbers be enough to satisfy them?

    Just slightly worried myself. I think the blockbuster landscape is getting more and more homogenised in recent years. The reason I still like Bond, and the reason I think it still does so well here in the UK, other than it being ours, is that it’s different. There’s nothing else like it, and it still feels like a real event. I’d hate to lose that by pandering to superhero addicted young Americans, but will it be a choice between doing that and the series dying? (These are genuine questions, I know nowhere near as much about the industry as you lot).

    Good post and interesting question. Wish I had the answer. I share your concern...
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    What is your take on the films (relative) disappointing numbers in Japan, @4EverBonded?
  • GeneralGogolGeneralGogol
    Posts: 928
    Some positive spin from Digital Spy:

    "After only 18 days of release, No Time to Die has already shot to £68.6 million ($94.7 million) in the UK (via ScreenDaily). It was already the biggest movie of the year – and the biggest of the 'pandemic era' – after its opening weekend, and now stands as the 14th highest-grossing movie of all time.

    Remarkably, it looks like the movie could challenge the £95.2 million ($131.4 million) and £103.2 million ($142.4 million) results of Spectre and Skyfall, respectively."

    It would be sensational if its UK gross will end up very close to the North American figure!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    My take on Japan is that it is not very disappointing.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    4EverBonded wrote: »
    My take on Japan is that it is not very disappointing.


    Oh, I didn't mean the country, just the BO numbers :)) ;)

    Seriously though, I don't know how much money films make in Japan in general, so I am not the man to judge. But other people on this thread have claimed the numbers are underwhelming.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I know you mean box office. I don't have numbers. I know it has shown as most popular of Craig's films, higher rating with audiences than ever before. I doubt it is doing very poorly here.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    4EverBonded wrote: »
    I know you mean box office. I don't have numbers. I know it has shown as most popular of Craig's films, higher rating with audiences than ever before. I doubt it is doing very poorly here.

    I know you understood. Just thought the wording looked funny, and then I cannot resist making bad jokes ;)
  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    Posts: 1,088
    I think a lot of people, because of the pandemic, might see it later than usual anyway, because they might feel safer with the cinemas less crowded. This movie might not play out like pre-pandemic Bond movies when it comes to the drop-off of people going to see it.
    I haven't seen it at the pictures yet, and by now I'd have seen the latest Bond film a couple of times. But that's more to do with the content than the virus.
  • manovermanover uk
    Posts: 170
    NTTD has officially passed 100 million at US boxoffice.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    Seems its Monday take wasn't too far off from Halloween. I would think then that it's not too bad for a Monday.
  • bondywondybondywondy Uk
    edited October 2021 Posts: 375
    manover wrote: »
    NTTD has officially passed 100 million at US boxoffice.

    That is impressive. In my opinion that makes it a pandemic era box office hit. I don't consider it a box office flop in the US in terms of attendance. People have wanted to see it so that is a decent measure of success.😉

    Whatever the final US box office gross turns out to be, taking a guess I reckon pre coronavirus it would have made a minimum 30 million more? 30 to 50 range? Maybe.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Probably 50+ more.
  • JimjambondJimjambond
    Posts: 328
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    His successors? The continuation novels have as much legitimacy as the original film scripts. There’s bits they could nick, but they’re not the source material, and I doubt they’ll ever adapt one properly.

    Which is up to them. My point is they have more than enough ideas, plot points and concepts at their disposal to mine. There's no need to be looking at what Marvel or any other franchise is doing. Bond used to set the standard and now it's looking everywhere else except their own back garden for ideas.
    And having the Craig films connected wasn’t copying Marvel. The Craig films started first remember. They were always connected,

    Always connected? You sure? IIRC the connection started with SP back in 2015.
    No Time To Die was written before the last Avengers film came out, and I’d imagine they gave him a daughter because it fit the themes they’d been exploring throughout this run.

    Infinity War and End Game were released in 2018 and 2019 respectively. Filming for NTTD began in 2019 with an incomplete script.
    I don’t think they’ve made it out to be difficult either, and they still seem to be doing a good job from my perspective. As said above, NTTD is on track to be the 3rd highest grossing film ever in the UK.
    Which is great but the UK isn't the only market. Bond needs to and should be doing well in all the other major markets. EoN need a moment of introspection and figure out what the issues are and how they can be resolved.
    books would lead to higher box office receipts. The Craig films have been the most successful Bonds since the 60s, despite deviating from Fleming in significant ways.
    Craig's films carry the spirit of Fleming's books at least character-wise and that's where most of the praise from his films come from. If the film makers drew inspiration and did a better job executing more story elements from the novels, the films would be much better. The early films from the 60s prove this, as did CR. NTTD isn't a disaster and for the most part it's good but had they made better creative choices and adhered to some of the components from the YOLT novel, it would have been a far better and digestible outing than what we ended up with....imo of course.

  • bondsumbondsum
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,334
    The one thing the domestic box office demographic shows is that nearly 60% of moviegoers that turned up to see the film were over 35 years old, and over 36% of the ticket buyers were aged over 45. It’s strange because they got the younger demographic to download the song by Billie Eilish but not go see the actual movie. I certainly think the marketing might have hurt it. The whole “Everything that has a beginning, must have an end” in the final US trailer was an obvious spoiler as to which way NTTD would go. Then you had the whole Lashana Lynch as the new 007 which really didn’t amount to much in the final cut. Certainly not the attention the marketing department and the actress herself were first pushing before the release of the movie. Bizarrely, even Fukunaga joined in with his condemnation of Connery's Bond, trying to curry favour with a younger hip audience that failed to turn up. It's never a good idea to create negative energy around your property when you're trying to sell it to the public.

    On 4th October, box office analysts predicted a $100 million domestic opening weekend, then it was dropped to $72m followed by $62m, with a projected total run of $215m, which would at least have put NTTD on par with Shang-Chi. It actually opened lower than that. Clearly something happened between the first forecast and the last one to keep making the analysts drop their numbers. I can only think it was the confirmed spoilers coming out of the UK which were starting to hurt its reputation, with a big drop-off in enthusiasm to see Bond finally meet his maker. Currently NTTD is struggling to reach A Quiet Place Part II or even Free Guy numbers, both non-MCU movies, so the non-superhero defense can’t really be used for NTTD. I must add Quiet Place Part II opened in far fewer cinemas during the summer peak of the pandemic than NTTD did. Sure, QPII was a much shorter film, but the far fewer cinemas it played in helps balance that out.

    So is NTTD a flop? That depends on your definition of the word. It's certainly not an international flop, so no it's not. However, it is currently being seen as a domestic box office failure, whether you like to admit or not. Critical acclaim means very little if the movie fails to attract moviegoers in the North American market. Blade Runner 2049 was a critically acclaimed sequel but is still regarded as a commercial flop. There's plenty more movies you can add to the same list.

    So what exactly has gone wrong with attracting a younger audience? I think the producers innocent attempt to make Bond classy highbrow entertainment, which certainly draws a much older audience, has dramatically narrowed its appeal over time. What young kid truly wants to grow up and be just like Craig’s Bond the same way they did Connery’s, Moore’s or Brosnan’s? Is Craig’s Bond even seen as an aspirational character anymore, constantly getting burned by women and moping around, or is he now seen as a figure that should be pitied? Also, where’s Craig’s Goldeneye 64 for his generation of young gamers to get them interested in 007 again? In all honesty, there's probably a multitude of reasons why there's been a gradual disconnect from Bond in the younger market, and it can't be pinpointed to just one thing specifically.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    Craig's films carry the spirit of Fleming's books at least character-wise and that's where most of the praise from his films come from. If the film makers drew inspiration and did a better job executing more story elements from the novels, the films would be much better. The early films from the 60s prove this, as did CR. NTTD isn't a disaster and for the most part it's good but had they made better creative choices and adhered to some of the components from the YOLT novel, it would have been a far better and digestible outing than what we ended up with....imo of course.
    Well said!
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    bondsum wrote: »
    The one thing the domestic box office demographic shows is that nearly 60% of moviegoers that turned up to see the film were over 35 years old, and over 36% of the ticket buyers were aged over 45. It’s strange because they got the younger demographic to download the song by Billie Eilish but not go see the actual movie. I certainly think the marketing might have hurt it. The whole “Everything that has a beginning, must have an end” in the final US trailer was an obvious spoiler as to which way NTTD would go. Then you had the whole Lashana Lynch as the new 007 which really didn’t amount to much in the final cut. Certainly not the attention the marketing department and the actress herself were first pushing before the release of the movie. Bizarrely, even Fukunaga joined in with his condemnation of Connery's Bond, trying to curry favour with a younger hip audience that failed to turn up. It's never a good idea to create negative energy around your property when you're trying to sell it to the public.

    On 4th October, box office analysts predicted a $100 million domestic opening weekend, then it was dropped to $72m followed by $62m, with a projected total run of $215m, which would at least have put NTTD on par with Shang-Chi. It actually opened lower than that. Clearly something happened between the first forecast and the last one to keep making the analysts drop their numbers. I can only think it was the confirmed spoilers coming out of the UK which were starting to hurt its reputation, with a big drop-off in enthusiasm to see Bond finally meet his maker. Currently NTTD is struggling to reach A Quiet Place Part II or even Free Guy numbers, both non-MCU movies, so the non-superhero defense can’t really be used for NTTD. I must add Quiet Place Part II opened in far fewer cinemas during the summer peak of the pandemic than NTTD did. Sure, QPII was a much shorter film, but the far fewer cinemas it played in helps balance that out.

    So is NTTD a flop? That depends on your definition of the word. It's certainly not an international flop, so no it's not. However, it is currently being seen as a domestic box office failure, whether you like to admit or not. Critical acclaim means very little if the movie fails to attract moviegoers in the North American market. Blade Runner 2049 was a critically acclaimed sequel but is still regarded as a commercial flop. There's plenty more movies you can add to the same list.

    So what exactly has gone wrong with attracting a younger audience? I think the producers innocent attempt to make Bond classy highbrow entertainment, which certainly draws a much older audience, has dramatically narrowed its appeal over time. What young kid truly wants to grow up and be just like Craig’s Bond the same way they did Connery’s, Moore’s or Brosnan’s? Is Craig’s Bond even seen as an aspirational character anymore, constantly getting burned by women and moping around, or is he now seen as a figure that should be pitied? Also, where’s Craig’s Goldeneye 64 for his generation of young gamers to get them interested in 007 again? In all honesty, there's probably a multitude of reasons why there's been a gradual disconnect from Bond in the younger market, and it can't be pinpointed to just one thing.

    Venom damaged Bond as well. Younger audiences chose Venom. Without Venom and even Halloween Kills a good amount of younger people would’ve seen Bond.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2021 Posts: 8,243
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    And having the Craig films connected wasn’t copying Marvel. The Craig films started first remember. They were always connected,

    Always connected? You sure? IIRC the connection started with SP back in 2015.

    QOS came out in 2008.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,714
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    And having the Craig films connected wasn’t copying Marvel. The Craig films started first remember. They were always connected,

    Always connected? You sure? IIRC the connection started with SP back in 2015.

    QOS came out in 2008.

    Sure, but Skyfall makes basically no reference to either of the other two.

    I'm happy with Craig's run, but let's not overstate the inevitability of this ending or deny how completely ad hoc the development of the arc has been.
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,334
    matt_u wrote: »
    Venom damaged Bond as well. Younger audiences chose Venom. Without Venom and even Halloween Kills a good amount of younger people would’ve seen Bond.
    Sure @matt_u. A sequel that only had 1 movie before it, which didn't recieve anywhere close to the critical acclaim of NTTD. Besides, what's stopping the same number of youths from going to see another movie the following week? Are American teens only permitted to see 1 movie a month?
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,334
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    And having the Craig films connected wasn’t copying Marvel. The Craig films started first remember. They were always connected,

    Always connected? You sure? IIRC the connection started with SP back in 2015.

    QOS came out in 2008.
    I think @Jimjambond is refering to the BCU of SP, not the direct sequel that QoS was to CR. Until SP came out in 2015, SF was seen as a standalone movie, putting a distinct break in the continuity of the previous 2 movies. I can distinctly recall everyone praising SF for that very reason.
  • 9IW9IW
    Posts: 59
    bondsum wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Venom damaged Bond as well. Younger audiences chose Venom. Without Venom and even Halloween Kills a good amount of younger people would’ve seen Bond.
    Sure @matt_u. A sequel that only had 1 movie before it, which didn't recieve anywhere close to the critical acclaim of NTTD. Besides, what's stopping the same number of youths from going to see another movie the following week? Are American teens only permitted to see 1 movie a month?

    The data suggests that a large number of young people went to Venom on Bond’s first weekend and to Halloween on its second. That suggests that potential Bond ticket buyers chose other films, which affected the box office. Maybe I am missing your point.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    bondsum wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Venom damaged Bond as well. Younger audiences chose Venom. Without Venom and even Halloween Kills a good amount of younger people would’ve seen Bond.
    A sequel that only had 1 movie before it, which didn't recieve anywhere close to the critical acclaim of NTTD. Besides, what's stopping the same number of youths from going to see another movie the following week? Are American teens only permitted to see 1 movie a month?

    Lol those two factors are absolutely irrelevant. Plus, I'm not saying Venom is the main cause of Bond's disappointment in NA. I'm saying that it did some damage and "robbed" Bond of some younger audience. Let's not forget that Venom grossed in 3 days what Bond did in 10.
    9IW wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Venom damaged Bond as well. Younger audiences chose Venom. Without Venom and even Halloween Kills a good amount of younger people would’ve seen Bond.
    Sure @matt_u. A sequel that only had 1 movie before it, which didn't recieve anywhere close to the critical acclaim of NTTD. Besides, what's stopping the same number of youths from going to see another movie the following week? Are American teens only permitted to see 1 movie a month?

    The data suggests that a large number of young people went to Venom on Bond’s first weekend and to Halloween on its second. That suggests that potential Bond ticket buyers chose other films, which affected the box office. Maybe I am missing your point.

    You're not. He's just... wrong.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,243
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Jimjambond wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    And having the Craig films connected wasn’t copying Marvel. The Craig films started first remember. They were always connected,

    Always connected? You sure? IIRC the connection started with SP back in 2015.

    QOS came out in 2008.

    Sure, but Skyfall makes basically no reference to either of the other two.

    I'm happy with Craig's run, but let's not overstate the inevitability of this ending or deny how completely ad hoc the development of the arc has been.

    Bond does allude to his experience with Le Chiffre.

    “What makes you think it’s my first time”

    All I’m saying is that QOS was the first to present an ongoing storyline that was then followed up with SP (while clumsily including SP) and then that was followed up and concluded with NTTD.
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,334
    9IW wrote: »
    The data suggests that a large number of young people went to Venom on Bond’s first weekend and to Halloween on its second. That suggests that potential Bond ticket buyers chose other films, which affected the box office. Maybe I am missing your point.
    Yes, I think you are missing my point @9IW. Young Americans can afford to see 2 movies in the same week, or following day to make up the same box office shortfalls, unless they don't want to see it for other reasons.

    PS. Careful @matt_u, you're skating dangerously close to getting personal. Keep your arguments on point, not aimed at the poster.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    Without mentioning that going to the movies is a weekend activity, especially for the youngest.

    Last weekend in the UK NTTD on its third weekend grossed more than Venom on its first. £8.4 million vs £6.1 million. Beautiful. Thank God there’s still Europe for Bond fans.
  • 9IW9IW
    Posts: 59
    bondsum wrote: »
    9IW wrote: »
    The data suggests that a large number of young people went to Venom on Bond’s first weekend and to Halloween on its second. That suggests that potential Bond ticket buyers chose other films, which affected the box office. Maybe I am missing your point.
    Yes, I think you are missing my point @9IW. Young Americans can afford to see 2 movies in the same week, or following day to make up the same box office shortfalls, unless they don't want to see it for other reasons.

    Agree, and we would probably need more data to understand their habits and whether multiple movie weeks are actually common. I think that last bit is what we are up against. Other reasons.
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