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The Brosnan era was actually more fun for Bond fans

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  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,917
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    I think a big issue with the Brosnan era of Bond was that he was robbed of the chance to do a Fleming Style adventure. GE comes close because it takes bits and pieces from the Moonraker novel, but something like FRWL, OHMSS, and FYEO could’ve easily benefited Brosnan in the long run.

    This has been a perception since he left the role. It doesn't jibe with those who the era was more fun and all that and wasn't TWINE supposed to represent that?
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1,165
    TWINE has a strong Fleming script, but it was directed like a pastiche of the Moore years. It’s a movie at odds with itself, which is why it’s often so low in the rankings.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited October 2021 Posts: 8,216
    BT3366 wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    I think a big issue with the Brosnan era of Bond was that he was robbed of the chance to do a Fleming Style adventure. GE comes close because it takes bits and pieces from the Moonraker novel, but something like FRWL, OHMSS, and FYEO could’ve easily benefited Brosnan in the long run.

    This has been a perception since he left the role. It doesn't jibe with those who the era was more fun and all that and wasn't TWINE supposed to represent that?

    Why doesn't it jibe with that? The early Connery films are also fun and Flemingesque, I feel. The books are a fun read. The Brosnan flicks were fun (well, the first few certainly were, I think) but I don't see too much Fleming in them bar a specific nod here and there.
    Minion wrote: »
    TWINE has a strong Fleming script, but it was directed like a pastiche of the Moore years. It’s a movie at odds with itself, which is why it’s often so low in the rankings.

    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    The ski chase is rubbish, and Vic Armstrong has to take the blame for that. The whole things is directed quite flatly, whereas the story is pretty good. It's a bit like LTK for me (and I know many will disagree) where I think the script and story are better than the film turned out to be.
  • GunnerWhoGunnerWho Scotland
    Posts: 6
    I like Goldeneye and feel that what they did with M and Bond was great in that movie. Judi Denchs M is my favourite part of Brosnans Bond. I think Brosnan can do the charming stuff well and looks the part. I think Daniel and Timothy are more romantic as Bond. With Daniel and Timothys bonds it feels that there is more layers to them by just looking at their eyes.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Never had much of an issue with the ski chase, personally. It's not outstanding or anything, but I never quite got what made it worthy of such strong criticism. It's a very 90s chase (in the sense that things that shouldn't explode, explode for almost no reason) and the parahawks are more interesting in the air than they are on the ground, but it's perfectly fine. I think the stunt at the end is pretty underrated, too.

    Agree that the ideas/concepts behind TWINE are better than the film ultimately turned out to be, though. I would have much rathered the submarine sequence not be the finale, and Bond killing Elektra be the final sequence - perhaps taking place after her plot has been foiled. Also - and this has been noted by others before - but Christmas should have been more like Severine or Lucia. She's there for a sequence or two but then she moves on.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,266
    BT3366 wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    I think a big issue with the Brosnan era of Bond was that he was robbed of the chance to do a Fleming Style adventure. GE comes close because it takes bits and pieces from the Moonraker novel, but something like FRWL, OHMSS, and FYEO could’ve easily benefited Brosnan in the long run.

    This has been a perception since he left the role. It doesn't jibe with those who the era was more fun and all that and wasn't TWINE supposed to represent that?

    I think TWINE is very Fleming in its script, which is why I love it as much as I do, but on film and in execution? It’s no FRWL.

    I think P&W planned for Brosnan’s 5th to be more rooted in Fleming than his previous outings, which is why I’m so disappointed we didn’t get that 5th film, but at the same time, we wouldn’t have gotten Casino Royale with Daniel, which sadly I could never trade or give up.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Agreed about TWINE getting the balance wrong. It wants to be OHMSS, but keeps resorting to Moore style humor done bad. It’s not too far off from the lesser Marvel films.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,266
    Minion wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!

    Yeah that fight between Bond and Renard is pretty weak, especially when you compare it to Bond and Trevelyns fight in Goldeneye. The fight scenes got weaker and weaker at the Brosnan films went on unfortunately, that’s probably another reason why CR packed as hard a punch as it did.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Minion wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!

    It's really atrocious stuff. People can mock Brosnan's facial expressions all they want, but at least he's actually trying to sell it as a fight.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,266
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!

    It's really atrocious stuff. People can mock Brosnan's facial expressions all they want, but at least he's actually trying to sell it as a fight.

    I always thought the face criticisms came from the torture scene. Thats the one time where I’ll criticize Brosnan’s acting in his entire era.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!

    It's really atrocious stuff. People can mock Brosnan's facial expressions all they want, but at least he's actually trying to sell it as a fight.

    I always thought the face criticisms came from the torture scene. Thats the one time where I’ll criticize Brosnan’s acting in his entire era.

    To be fair, I'd probably look pretty awful in that situation too. I can't even imagine the expressions I'd pull! It's always been a criticism of him though, and I get it - it pops up in all of his films. But, to me, it's no more or less egregious than Roger's "Oooooooh" that he uses to sell a painful moment.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!

    It's really atrocious stuff. People can mock Brosnan's facial expressions all they want, but at least he's actually trying to sell it as a fight.

    David Arnold worked double time to try and sell the intensity of that fight and he just can’t accentuate what isn’t there.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    If Brosnan only did the Painface™ in just one scene like when tortured in TWINE, it would have probably gone unnoticed. It’s only because Brosnan kept using that specific facial contortion and exaggerated grunting across all four films that it became a meme, much like the overdubbing of Moore’s “OOOAAHHH” during the John Glen films.

    I’m fact, it’s really less of a Bond meme and more of a Brosnan meme because he actually did it several times in other movies like THE FOURTH PROTOCOL.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    I like that you can google, Pierce Brosnan painface and get this...

    https://www.google.com/search?q=pierce+brosnan+painface&sxsrf=AOaemvIlp17ZG9ogIJJOADadTLqwNNyCNQ:1635657918266&source=hp&ei=vih-YZ6EDtq85OUP2tG_KA&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYX42zk09Od7raz6usGl6w5l9i-t-Q7GH&oq=pierce+brosnan+painface&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgjEOoCECc6DQguEMcBEK8BEOoCECc6DQguEMcBEKMCEOoCECc6BAgjECc6CAgAELEDEJECOggIABCABBCxAzoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOg0ILhDHARCvARAnEJMCOgUIABCRAjoLCC4QxwEQrwEQkQI6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggIABCABBDJAzoFCAAQkgM6CAguEIAEELEDOgUIABCABDoFCC4QgAQ6CwguEIAEEMcBEK8BOgoILhCxAxCDARAKOgoIABCxAxCDARAKOgQIABAKOgcIABCxAxAKOgcILhCxAxAKOg4ILhCABBCxAxCDARCTAjoGCAAQFhAeOgQIABANOgQILhANOgYIABANEB46CAgAEA0QBRAeUO4NWNhiYK9maAJwAHgAgAGyA4gB0zCSAQowLjYuMTIuNC4ymAEAoAEBsAEK&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwie28LJ9PPzAhVaHrkGHdroDwUQ4dUDCAo&uact=5
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited October 2021 Posts: 14,571
    Someone should use that TWINE painface as their avatar.

    https://i.imgflip.com/1cnpav.jpg
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,383
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. I don't think Apted was the right man for TWINE, in retrospect. The script itself is pretty decent. There's just something very flat about its execution when it comes to the big story beats. It still gets by just on thrills though, I think; I never had too big of an issue with the action - other than the awful choreography of the submarine fight, where Bond and Renard look to be hugging each other to death at one point.

    I'm half convinced they accidentally used the footage from a dress rehearsal for the final cut... it's just that bad!

    It's really atrocious stuff. People can mock Brosnan's facial expressions all they want, but at least he's actually trying to sell it as a fight.

    I always thought the face criticisms came from the torture scene. Thats the one time where I’ll criticize Brosnan’s acting in his entire era.

    The bit where he’s crying at the footage of Electra’s kidnap always makes me laugh. A lady he’s met very briefly just once. This is James Bond is it? :)
    Imagine him on his own in his flat each night, dramatically downing shots of vodka whilst watching the news in floods of tears.

    I think he gets in one of his patented lip wipes there, or I’m sure at least there’s a fingerlips move of some kind. That means Brosnan’s Thinking ;)
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    The answer to the thread headline is:



    No, hell no!!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,119
    jobo wrote: »
    The answer to the thread headline is:



    No, hell no!!

    I really like Pierce’s swagger, but I’ve got to agree here. Even what I consider his best films, GE and TWINE, two entries that I really love btw, have a few too many shoot-‘em-up moments. Too “actiony”, maybe, if that’s a word…
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    I would say the Broz era had a more vivid sense of escapism than now, and one aspect of that which I love is the travelogue feel to the missions. Not so much flying around more, but soaking up the country he's in and the fine details of how he gets there. There was still a focus on the jet-setting aspect, the airline culture: seeing footage of the BA plane Bond's aboard, receiving his ticket, carrying his briefcase with baggage tags etc. The further back you go through each Bond era, the more prominent this was. Nowadays, mostly everyone can travel inexpensively and your boarding pass isn't this intricate, colourful work of art, but a throwaway receipt. I miss that culture.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    I think it's all subjective for each fan. Pierce was a very good Bond. But he's not my personal favourite. For me, Roger Moore will always be my Bond. Is he the best Bond, possibly not, it's hard for anyone to top Sean Connery let's be honest. He obviously was the first and set the tone for all that followed. But I prefer Sir Rog just because he was the Bond when I first became a Bond fan. Then Timothy Dalton came along and I was on board for his interpretation of the character. Each Bond actor for me has brought something different to the role, and all of them have been enjoyable.
    So if the Brosnan era was more fun for fans, then good on you, as a fan of Pierce Brosnan.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Although I think DAD is unique in the series in that the main cast don’t appear in any of the foreign locations the film is set in.
  • StamperStamper
    edited October 2021 Posts: 387
    I think the Brosnan series lost it's way starting with WINE.
    It's badly shot, directed, the cinematography is near TV show level (and that would be insulting to many current TV shows of the time), M behave totally irrationally, (Dame Judi said she didn't even understand the film while seeing it, if I'm not mistaken), the bad guy is this bothering guy you would knock with one light punch in a pub, he exudes no threat or menace, and the Scientist Bond woman is literally a laugh. The whole film is abandoned, it's like the director is just present on the set to cash his check. The burial, the fight in the submarine, even killing Elektra, all those scenes are miss instead of hit.
    GE & TND were the best, and yes, they had action which was what Bond was about then.
    DAD, has only one scene that is great, and that is the moment 007 walk waist naked in the HK hotel. All the rest is just filling in footage.
    This was No Fun at all. Lucky us, the Craig era saved this sinking ship from oblivion.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I don't think there was any risk of the ship sinking after DAD. The series had overcome creative blips (that were far less financially successful) before. Craig or no Craig, Bond would have been fine. Brosnan was immensely popular during his tenure (and still mostly is, even now, despite what gets said on these boards) and his not-to-be fifth film would likely also have been a big success.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Stamper wrote: »
    I think the Brosnan series lost it's way starting with WINE.
    It's badly shot, directed, the cinematography is near TV show level (and that would be insulting to many current TV shows of the time)

    Yeah this is a big one for me; a few months ago I think I fancied watching a Bond and put TMWWTGG in, then decided to swap it out for TWINE - and the shock of that opening sequence in the banker's office after watching a bit of TMWTGG was quite surprising. The cinematography is flat (opening the gunbarrel on Pierce crossing the road..??), the sets are dreary and ordinary and even feel a bit depressing, and the dialogue is pretty poor and delivered with schoolboy winks ("I'm sure your figures are perfectly rounded" SQUINT, NOD, SMIRK), and the music is a big downgrade too. And that's compared to TMWTGG, which is far from my favourite Bond film, but it feels so much more stylish and elegant. I can't help but feel the Bond films lost their way a touch around here and became a bit thin and plasticky. And Michael Apted -who was undeniably a brilliant filmmaker- was perhaps not the right man for this particular gig.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,266
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I don't think there was any risk of the ship sinking after DAD. The series had overcome creative blips (that were far less financially successful) before. Craig or no Craig, Bond would have been fine. Brosnan was immensely popular during his tenure (and still mostly is, even now, despite what gets said on these boards) and his not-to-be fifth film would likely also have been a big success.

    I agree, each Brosnan film managed to make more than its previous entry, and Die Another Day got decent reviews back in 2002. It was only when Casino Royale came out that I think the mass public perception of DAD changed. As I mentioned before, I’m a big fan of Brosnan’s Bond, I understand the criticisms of him, but I still think he managed to embody all the elements of the character, and made the role his own. I mean if we really start nitpicking, we could find flaws in all the Bonds acting throughout their films.
  • MSL49MSL49 Finland
    Posts: 395
    Agreed it was a fun ride as bond should be.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,418
    Stamper wrote: »
    I think the Brosnan series lost it's way starting with WINE.
    It's badly shot, directed, the cinematography is near TV show level (and that would be insulting to many current TV shows of the time), M behave totally irrationally, (Dame Judi said she didn't even understand the film while seeing it, if I'm not mistaken), the bad guy is this bothering guy you would knock with one light punch in a pub, he exudes no threat or menace, and the Scientist Bond woman is literally a laugh. The whole film is abandoned, it's like the director is just present on the set to cash his check. The burial, the fight in the submarine, even killing Elektra, all those scenes are miss instead of hit.
    GE & TND were the best, and yes, they had action which was what Bond was about then.
    DAD, has only one scene that is great, and that is the moment 007 walk waist naked in the HK hotel. All the rest is just filling in footage.
    This was No Fun at all. Lucky us, the Craig era saved this sinking ship from oblivion.

    Yes, I always need lots of WINE to watch a Brossa Bond movie!
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    Stamper wrote: »
    I think the Brosnan series lost it's way starting with WINE.
    It's badly shot, directed, the cinematography is near TV show level (and that would be insulting to many current TV shows of the time)

    Yeah this is a big one for me; a few months ago I think I fancied watching a Bond and put TMWWTGG in, then decided to swap it out for TWINE - and the shock of that opening sequence in the banker's office after watching a bit of TMWTGG was quite surprising. The cinematography is flat (opening the gunbarrel on Pierce crossing the road..??), the sets are dreary and ordinary and even feel a bit depressing, and the dialogue is pretty poor and delivered with schoolboy winks ("I'm sure your figures are perfectly rounded" SQUINT, NOD, SMIRK), and the music is a big downgrade too. And that's compared to TMWTGG, which is far from my favourite Bond film, but it feels so much more stylish and elegant. I can't help but feel the Bond films lost their way a touch around here and became a bit thin and plasticky. And Michael Apted -who was undeniably a brilliant filmmaker- was perhaps not the right man for this particular gig.


    On the topic of TMWTGG, cinematography and the Brosnan era: It's striking how Ha Long Bay/ Phuket can look so glamorous and inviting in Gun and so, by comparison, bland, cold and lifeless in TND. The same goes for Istanbul in FRWL vs in TWINE. It is very peculiar, but in TND and TWINE in particular they make the locations look less interesting than they actually are. It is so systematic that you have to wonder whether it was deliberate...
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