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NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    I sense a logical thread here which MIGHT just MIGHT counter the division. It's not the death of Bond so much as the issue of finality vs reboot. If the character is rebooted in say 2 years or so, one could say that the death, even in the craig iteration multiverse idea, simply loses currency, which begs the question why go thereat all? Irony: in killing Bond, they have made the most substantial and final thing consequence free and confusing to some, sacred to others. This is a philosophical debate of sorts which is something Craig always WANTED so it's not necessarily a 'bad' thing per se to see the polarities, provided it all stays 'nice' ;)
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    That's right, anyone who disagrees with you must be a vocal minority with their head stuck in an echo chamber...

    This is a fan site, where people enjoy discussing the minutiae that "normal" movie goers overlook

    No, I think (as in, I reckon) you’re the minority, based off my entirely anecdotal experience (never meeting anyone in real life with these complaints) and the fact that the film is still doing very well, making lots of money and getting good audience scores.

    And I only said that to disagree with your point about casual/normal moviegoers being confused, you were the one who bought them up. You were saying people won’t understand, I was saying I think those that don’t are in the minority, because the only place I’ve seen confusion is here (which as you say, is a fansite, pretty far removed from the average viewer experience).
    Seve wrote: »
    Batman died? Spideman died? Connery-Bond died? Rog-Bond died? etc
    Sorry, yes, I missed that

    Batman as good as died in The Dark Knight Rises. Missing, presumed dead until we see him retired and sunning himself in Spain or somewhere with Catwoman at the end. Then Joseph Gordon Levitt’s character takes the mantle.

    They started over with Ben Affleck just three years later, and I don’t remember anybody asking where Joseph Gordon Levitt had gone, why he was out of retirement, why he didn’t have Catwoman with him, etc. Because people understood it was a reboot. Just as people understood that Craig’s Bond was a reboot, and just as people will understand that this new Bond is another reboot.

    First, many of our complaints are based on the Craig era mimicking other franchises, particularly with all this "reboot" nonsense. Secondly, would the Batman reboots have worked if any of the previous continuities had killed off Batman? Killing off a character on-screen regardless of reboots might make it harder for audiences to accept that he's coming back in a different continuity, not easier. That's why you don't kill off the hero of his own series. A month after learning about NTTD's ending, I'm still utterly baffled as to why Eon made this decision.

    You mean Batman And Robin allowed BB to be accepted because it refrained from killing the Dark Knight? That makes zero sense. B&R could have killed Batman, sent him to Oa, turned him into a talking turnip,... No one would have pulled a "wait, isn't he dead?" when BB arrived. People move on, you know. These hysterics are getting more ridiculous by the day.

    But hey, we're bound to find out. In a few years, EON will most likely deliver Bond 26. We'll see then how many people will be confused beyond measure or unwilling to accept the new Bond.

    It's easier to see the Batman films as different entities entirely. Different crew, different producers, entirely different company making the films (and a very long time period between the 2 set of films.)

    Whereas Bond is a family run business (probably the only franchise left that still is), and there is a franchise trademark continuity throughout - gunbarrel, Bond theme, Aston Martin, PTS, etc. It all belongs to one series.

    And one last flaw in your argument - Batman didn't die, either in BAR, or TDKR. The producers had more sense... ;)

    I agree. Batman is a different thing altogether. I'm not the onewho (for the umptieth time) is trying to make a point concerning Bond by referring to Batman. I was responding to another member's false argument.

    In fact, this once again demonstrates that all the negative speculation concerning the future of Bond is pointless. Think about it. We haven't really seen anything quite like this before and therefore we can't be sure how people will respond. All I'm reading is how this is sure to damage the series, hurt the "franchise" (a word people continue to use without understanding what it means) and such and such, but then arguments are sought, by both sides, in other series, hoping that examples there can lead to trustworthy predictions concerning Bond. Yet... there really aren't cases like this that we've seen before; this is a unique thing. Therefore, we don't know and we can't know. We can only speculate, presume and assume. But audiences can be very unpredictable, fickle and surprisingly easy to turn. So let's stop assuming to know how audiences will respond when in 3, 4, 5? years from now, a new Bond suddenly kicks off a new series.

    We're essentially going in circles. One side says, "but this is what happened to Batman, Superman, M:I, ..." and then the other side responds by saying, "but they're not the same thing." Come back an hour later and the same discussion can be read, but with both sides switched. It has become clear to me that this is absolutely silly since, again, we have nothing to compare NTTD with or to, nothing that can teach us something about audiences' response to NTTD + 1. Every time someone digs up another great example of what happened to another character in another film series (or "franchise" if you like), someone else is bound to point out the fundamental differences between both. Your post pretty much proves my point, @jetsetwilly ;-).

    And lastly, I'm not sure there is a flaw in my argument, my good friend. Batman didn't die. I never claimed that much. @slide_99 was trying to make a point about NTTD and the future of Bond by comparing them to Batman (first mistake, see above) and also by implying that the Nolan films and Pattinson's Batman got lucky that Batman wasn't killed, or else! (second mistake). I was merely pointing out that nothing that happened in B&R had any direct effect on the Nolan films--and you seem to agree with me.

    My head hurts. :-S
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    edited November 2021 Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote: »

    You need to get over it, dude. They killed him. He dead.

    giphy.gif

  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    jobo wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly

    - "I don't feel I have anything to add on this subject anymore."

    Goes on to write about six more comments close to essay length... ;)

    giphy-downsized-large.gif
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,182
    @jetsetwilly
    Please avoid double/triple posts. Use the edit button instead. Thank you.
  • DavidWebbDavidWebb Somewhere
    Posts: 20
    I watched it the day after it came out. I thought it was pretty good. I remember leaving the theater
    in awe that they had actually done it -- they had actually killed James Bond. To be fair, I went into the cinema telling my friend that he was probably going to die, but really I was still taken slightly aback. That being said, I think the buildup was pretty realistic, I mean if there is any way James Bond is going to die in the Daniel Craig era its the way they did it. I could provide some other ideas, but I think the way they did it was fine and I have no objections.

    Overall, I liked it, it was a decent way to end the 5 movie stretch.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    jobo wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly

    - "I don't feel I have anything to add on this subject anymore."

    Goes on to write about six more comments close to essay length... ;)

    ;))
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    edited November 2021 Posts: 3,327
    Minion wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly

    - "I don't feel I have anything to add on this subject anymore."

    Goes on to write about six more comments close to essay length... ;)

    ;))

    You won't hear anymore from me now on the subject, I promise.
    Definitely not.

    Never again.... [-X
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    I give you a day at most :P.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    @jetsetwilly, don't make a girl a promise if you don't intend to keep it. ;)
  • GeneralGogolGeneralGogol
    Posts: 928
    I'll just share that it took a while to console my wife after I took her to see the film (her 1st, my 2nd viewing). I was extremely careful not to spoil anything for her beforehand and after my 1st viewing simply said "it was great, it was Craig's last, can't tell you anything else!" She is as much emotionally into Craig-Bond as I am since I took her to Skyfall on opening day when we just started dating. Of course I made her watch all the films. We were also lucky to see Craig and Weisz on stage in New York years ago and got his autograph. And what's more, We Have All the Time in the World was the song for our wedding dance. So all of that, plus all of NTTD's twists and dou-dous (we have a young daughter), factored into that long stream of tears.

    I don't think the next era of Bond will be as close to the heart, but we'll be still be there day 1 of Bond 26.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    Minion wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly, don't make a girl a promise if you don't intend to keep it. ;)

    giphy.gif
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    TheQueensPeace wrote: »
    I sense a logical thread here which MIGHT just MIGHT counter the division. It's not the death of Bond so much as the issue of finality vs reboot. If the character is rebooted in say 2 years or so, one could say that the death, even in the craig iteration multiverse idea, simply loses currency, which begs the question why go thereat all? Irony: in killing Bond, they have made the most substantial and final thing consequence free and confusing to some, sacred to others. This is a philosophical debate of sorts which is something Craig always WANTED so it's not necessarily a 'bad' thing per se to see the polarities, provided it all stays 'nice' ;)

    That is the part I am trying to wrap my head around as well. I personally am very much in favour of actions having real consequences in films. All of the fake deaths and resurrections and whatnot are getting boring and leading to fans of popular culture apparently being completely unable to reckon with death at all. Every character comes back somehow, somewhere. That is one of the reasons I applaud Eon making the end of Craig's-Bond so very unambiguous. There is absolutely no way for him to come back from that. They didn't bomb a different island. He didn't jump out of the way off-screen. He didn't put the flying batmobile into auto-pilot or whatever. He is dead. End of.

    HOWEVER, there is the part that you mention: It doesn't matter. James Bond will Return. There wouldn't have been a new film with Craig anyway and they most likely would have rebooted anyway. So in fact there is no finality at all. There are no stakes or consequences whatsoever. In a way, by dying in NTTD, Bond has finally proven that he is immortal.

    And that kind puts the whole thing on it's head and makes you wonder what the hell is going on anyway. I am very conflicted on this. The first time I saw the film - eventhough I wasn't able to recognize it at the time - I was really upset and basically rushed out of the cinema not really engaging with what just happened. The second time, I thought the end was quite beautiful and emotionally affecting. Now, I don't know what to think...
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    Is it possible you don't know what to think because Bond's dust literally hasn't settled yet? ;)

    I always think give it a good handful of years and revisit it... It will probably be fine. Right now could just be the fear of the unknown kicking in because you have more time to think about the direction they may take things... and while it's natural we would worry as fans it's also kind of pointless. You're on a rollercoaster ride and tbh I just like to be on it and have fun as a fan without worrying about where it might go or not go.

    But then... I do try to view each of these films as their one iconic story. Yes, there has been an arc and thread that ran through the last 5 but it wouldn't detract me from enjoying the other movies either by thinking "oh, he dies." I just appreciate the entertainment in front of me.

    Does that make sense? Sometimes I feel like my head is a mess that only I should be privy to. :))
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    Oh, I think we are in the same boat. I am not on the verge of walking away from the franchise or anything. I still overall like the film.

    It's just that I am slowly realizing what my thoughts about the ending are. At first I was a bit dismissive of people saying they were hurt by the ending and now I realize that in a way, I was as well.

    And to top it all off: In my eyes all of that is a sign of quality. The film has been out for weeks and I haven't seen it in weeks and I am still thinking about it and re-evaluating what the hell just happened. And I am sure you are right that we will continue to do that for years and years.
    And I have watched YOLT, Moonraker and The Living Daylights since and I can confidently say that it didn't once cross my mind that he dies later...
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,303
    If DAD didn't kill Bond, what are a few dozen missiles?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,973
    echo wrote: »
    If DAD didn't kill Bond, what are a few dozen missiles?

    Thankfully, Dou Dou absorbed the entirety of the blast and Bond lives to die another day.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,303
    Did anyone have "Bond dies in the arms of a stuffed animal" in the betting pool?
  • StamperStamper
    Posts: 387
    I just had Mally no show 70 to 1.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,550
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    @jetsetwilly

    - "I don't feel I have anything to add on this subject anymore."

    Goes on to write about six more comments close to essay length... ;)

    ;))

    You won't hear anymore from me now on the subject, I promise.
    Definitely not.

    Never again.... [-X

    I’m not sure we’ve always agreed in this thread, but I feel the exact same was as you here. :)) I keep saying I’m just going to avoid the thread, but it always drags me back. I guess I just love to fight. <3

    tumblr_nu4u11qwsj1tsnnxio1_500.gifv
  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,078
    DavidWebb wrote: »
    Overall, I liked it, it was a decent way to end the 5 movie stretch.

    If it was a five film series which started in 2006, and that was the last movie, then I'd agree. But it's the twenty-fifth film in a sixty year series, and it's not even the last film. So no, killing him off doesn't work for many people.
    It does work for many too though, obviously.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,550
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    DavidWebb wrote: »
    Overall, I liked it, it was a decent way to end the 5 movie stretch.

    If it was a five film series which started in 2006, and that was the last movie, then I'd agree. But it's the twenty-fifth film in a sixty year series, and it's not even the last film. So no, killing him off doesn't work for many people.
    It does work for many too though, obviously.

    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.
  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    Posts: 1,078
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.

    This is the thing. I'm not sure how I'd approach it now, because they could kill off the new Bond in the film after that, couldn't they?
    They've actually damaged the franchise for me.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.

    This is the thing. I'm not sure how I'd approach it now, because they could kill off the new Bond in the film after that, couldn't they?
    They've actually damaged the franchise for me.

    There’s no way that will happen.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,261
    They did not kill the future Bond. But it's like preaching to deaf ears. And Bond never was, is not and never will be a real person, but a fictional character, that was invented/created by Ian Fleming.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Coming to think about it, Bond should have survived and Craig should not have retired. And we should forget about Bond #7, but stick with Craig for the next movies. He and Madeleine should have married and have more children. Ad we see him changing diapers, feed the children, walk them around in a pram, and chatting with mothers with their kids in the park. I really would love to see that.

    And hopefully we wilkl get bonus tracks on the upcoming Bluray about Bond staying with Q (what he does, but we didn't see. Two options:
    1. Bond cleaning Q's flat, do all the shopping, feed his cats, and cook the meals.
    Or - more interesting IMO:
    2. Q getting mad at Bond for messing up his flat with dozens of empty Heineken cans, and empty take-away boxes.

    That would be a Bond film, I'd love to see.

    *travels according to dictation*
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,550
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.

    This is the thing. I'm not sure how I'd approach it now, because they could kill off the new Bond in the film after that, couldn't they?
    They've actually damaged the franchise for me.

    If anything, that could be better because then the stakes in the movie will be much higher? Certainly higher than if you *know* Bond will live.

    Or perhaps, lower, because whether Bond lives or dies is no longer such a big issue?

    But I agree with the other posters, it won't happen.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2021 Posts: 17,799
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    DavidWebb wrote: »
    Overall, I liked it, it was a decent way to end the 5 movie stretch.

    If it was a five film series which started in 2006, and that was the last movie, then I'd agree. But it's the twenty-fifth film in a sixty year series, and it's not even the last film. So no, killing him off doesn't work for many people.
    It does work for many too though, obviously.

    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.

    This is fascinating to me because I was just thinking on this.
    Is this the end? How Bond leaves this mortal coil? Do I watch DAD and think 'but I know the day you die now'? Do I watch SP & pretend he has a happy-ever-after with Madeline?
    To me, each movie (even QOS) is a self-contained reality, unlike say, the Jones movies. And each actor's tenure is like a separate universe. Indeed, the genius of this franchise lies in the ability of the movies to let us mentally compartmentalize. Did Bond lose the love of his life in Vesper? Or was it Tracy? See? Pulp fiction at it's finest.
    If you agree here I might even buy you a delicatessen, in stainless steel... ;)
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    chrisisall wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    DavidWebb wrote: »
    Overall, I liked it, it was a decent way to end the 5 movie stretch.

    If it was a five film series which started in 2006, and that was the last movie, then I'd agree. But it's the twenty-fifth film in a sixty year series, and it's not even the last film. So no, killing him off doesn't work for many people.
    It does work for many too though, obviously.

    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.

    This is fascinating to me because I was just thinking on this.
    Is this the end? How Bond leaves this mortal coil? Do I watch DAD and think 'but I know the day you die now'? Do I watch SP & pretend he has a happy-ever-after with Madeline?
    To me, each movie (even QOS) is a self-contained reality, unlike say, the Jones movies. And each actor's tenure is like a separate universe. Indeed, the genius of this franchise lies in the ability of the movies to let us mentally compartmentalize. Did Bond lose the love of his life in Vesper? Or was it Tracy? See? Pulp fiction at it's finest.
    If you agree here I might even buy you a delicatessen, in stainless steel... ;)


    I agree. I'll DM you the delivery adress...

    P.S. And I want that really stainless!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,182
    chrisisall wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    DavidWebb wrote: »
    Overall, I liked it, it was a decent way to end the 5 movie stretch.

    If it was a five film series which started in 2006, and that was the last movie, then I'd agree. But it's the twenty-fifth film in a sixty year series, and it's not even the last film. So no, killing him off doesn't work for many people.
    It does work for many too though, obviously.

    In six years, or however long, when we get a new Bond film with a new Bond actor, new Whitehall Brigade, and new megalomaniacal villain, where Bond rides off into the sunset with a new Bond Woman as he's done 24 out of the last 25 times, how would that affect your view of the end of NTTD? Are you happy to just write off NTTD as though it doesn't exist? Would you write off the whole Craig Era? Curious about your thoughts.

    This is fascinating to me because I was just thinking on this.
    Is this the end? How Bond leaves this mortal coil? Do I watch DAD and think 'but I know the day you die now'? Do I watch SP & pretend he has a happy-ever-after with Madeline?
    To me, each movie (even QOS) is a self-contained reality, unlike say, the Jones movies. And each actor's tenure is like a separate universe. Indeed, the genius of this franchise lies in the ability of the movies to let us mentally compartmentalize. Did Bond lose the love of his life in Vesper? Or was it Tracy? See? Pulp fiction at it's finest.
    If you agree here I might even buy you a delicatessen, in stainless steel... ;)

    That's a very interesting analysis, @chrisisall. I will have to think about it all. ;-)
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