Is OHMSS Better Without Sean Connery?

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  • edited September 2020 Posts: 1,596
    @MakeshiftPython That is exactly right. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it. Part of it is Lazenby's youth working against him (I believe he still stands as the youngest actor ever at the time of filming/release?). And the Bond of the novel (and this is certainly one of the more faithful adaptations in the series all things considered) is nothing like Lazenby's performance.

    However, even that isn't a fair bar to judge a performance by, because if it were, a handful of Moore's performances would be invalidated, and I hold him in a lot higher regard than Lazenby.

    The chief distinction is Lazenby's chipper demeanor. The way he delivers lines, it's as if he's just been given the role of a lifetime and boy oh boy he sure is excited to be here! What a great day I, Jimmy Bond, am having on this secret mission! Yippee! I know I'm coming off harsh, and flippant, but I hope the sentiment here is making sense?

    He grates even more considering the film around him is absolutely phenomenal. Hell, I don't even know if Connery would be *that* much better (he was super pissed off by that point in the series, right?). But he was at least a trained actor, and Hunt is clearly a strong director, and part of me really thinks it would've been phenomenal.

    edit: He would've been alright in something like LALD, or really any of the Hamilton films. But he would've only been alright, because even Moore had that inimitable, wholly "Bond" feel and tone of dry, emotional coldness and callousness. People forget that just because Moore went for lighthearted deflection doesn't mean he didn't embody that sort of... weariness/pessimism/callousness of Bond. Correct me if I'm way off base, but I've often spent time trying to figure out why I hold Moore in higher regard despite him frequently being somewhat removed from Fleming (there are many exceptions, of course). And I think, ultimately, is that Moore in many ways isn't as far from Fleming as he appears on the surface. He still deflects, just differntly than the literary Bond, and that's more forgivable than a performance that doesn't feel like Bond really at all? (And I acknowledge and embrace that there is a marked difference between Fleming Bond and Cinematic Bond and we shouldn't really use them as concrete measuring sticks for eachother).
  • Posts: 1,860
    Felix in Thunderball IS the definition of "wooden".
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    mtm wrote: »
    I tend to think that it wasn’t Sean this movie needed, but Roger.
    Consider the open sequence in Portugal: a playboy travelling around the casinos of the Algarve? Pretty much The Saint’s stock-in trade, and he would’ve looked like he belongs there, whereas George looks shifty.
    Roger showed he could be the more sensitive Bond several times during his run: he was often much kinder and more human than Connery’s womanising tough version, and it would have worked here. He would have supplied star power (which the film lacks entirely) and would have actually brought some actual comic timing to the Hilary Bray section, as well as being a strong enough performer to provide a foil to Rigg. The fight scenes would have been worse, sure. I can live with that.

    Roger’s the guy this film needed.

    I have said this before too.
    It would have provided some excellent symmetry with FYEO, although that's in retrospect, of course.
  • Posts: 1,635
    Had Connery made OHMSS it very likely would NOT have been the film which was produced, but for him playing the part. It might not have had the Tracy-dies ending. The producers perceived that they had found a formula, and that it worked. They were not going to fix something which was not broken. When Connery stepped off, though, the producers went to one of their own to direct the film and give it a jolt. They were more accepting of the ideas he brought for treating action and other aspects, and it was all part of dealing with a very significant change.

    OHMSS was previously planned to come out after TB, but they decided not to have "a snow movie" right after "an underwater movie." Of course, given the novels, it would have made MUCH more sense to have OHMSS before YOLT, but when they got to YOLT they stayed with their formula much more than the book. For one thing -- the audience would not have been confounded by Blofeld's seeming inability to recognize Bond though they'd met in the YOLT film. For another -- plastic surgery and all -- it would have made more sense for Blofeld to be disfigured AFTER OHMSS and then look that way in YOLT. He was taller and buffer in OHMSS -- AFTER YOLT, too.

    OK, so continuity is not always strict in these films. But, at the time, they were just a few films in and it was perceived to have been the same timeline, continuing. (Eg. When considering resignation, Bond has mementos from the earlier films)

    At any rate, Lazenby was fine, and, as pointed out above by other folks posting excellent comments, he was able to convey some things which the audience might not have "bought" from Connery. Besides, Lazenby was in great shape. Connery would have had to work on himself a LOT to look better than he did two years before OHMSS, in YOLT, or two years after, in DAF.

    So -- had OHMSS been made according to the formula, and particularly had it changed the ending -- ugh. We wound up with a better film.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    The conjecture that everything would have changed had CONNERY been in OHMSS because he was the driver of the absurd isn’t true or fact.

    They returned to Fleming, period. Had Connery been in the film it would have been ahundred times better.

    It’s like saying your team is better off without Michael Jordan on it. There are some who would think that but of course they’re complete wrong.











  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,192
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    The conjecture that everything would have changed had CONNERY been in OHMSS because he was the driver of the absurd isn’t true or fact.

    They returned to Fleming, period. Had Connery been in the film it would have been ahundred times better.

    It’s like saying your team is better off without Michael Jordan on it. There are some who would think that but of course they’re complete wrong.

    Right. The push to stick to Fleming was all because of Peter Hunt’s insistence. The argument that they could ONLY do another YOLT type film with Connery in OHMSS because they had to play it safe doesn’t ring true.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 4,409
    NTTD inspired me to rewatch OHMSS..........

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    This is a very good movie - perhaps not as perfect as it has been heralded on NTTD's marketing tour - but it's still one of the most iconic and satisfying films in the franchise's oeuvre. Also, perhaps the most historically significant film in the series. For this reason, it garners the ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐/5 treatment.

    The film isn't without problems though. The opening of the film is a little long and rambling. It really takes a while for the film to get into gear and even then it does stumble in the second act. For example, the entire 20 minute segment where Bond travels to Switzerland and impersonates Sir Hilary Bray is a slog. There are some moments during the Piz Gloria scenes where film veers into pastiche with its psychedelic brainwashing scenes about learning to love chickens. Seriously, I had forgotten how daft these sequences were. A smarter screenwriter and editor would have exorcised or shortened these scenes. However, perhaps they were acceptable in 1969. Brainwashing hot women to unleash biological warfare and baffling heraldry subplots are risible today.

    However, the movie truly LEVELS UP when Bond is captured by Blofeld ⬆️⬆️⬆️. Telly Savalas is such a muscular and charismatic villain. It's at this point OHMSS almost acts as a silent film and there are some truly amazing action set-pieces. Speaking of NTTD, the action in OHMSS tops every sequence in the newer film despite it's more gargantuan budget and enlightened ambitions. It's a thrill ride (also, we need a ski chase in Bond 26)!

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    It's helped in no small measure by Diana Rigg who is the real lead of the film. She is given a real, sincere and genuine character to play. Diana Rigg is so mischievous and charismatic. They were lucky to get such a great actress who makes you love the character. Whilst she takes a needless back seat in the second act, whenever she is on the screen, this movie fires on all cyclinders. It is a very canny move to actually give Tracy some actions sequences for herself and provide her with agency. Previously I always saw her death from Bond's perspective - 007 was foolish to think his professional life wouldn't impede on his private life - but on a rewatch I saw it all from Tracy's perspective. Here was a woman who started the film as a possible suicide risk. She ends the film with a future.

    Plus, the romance between her and Bond isn't portrayed as 'the greatest love story ever told.' It's merely presented as a very charming courtship between two people who are clearly a match for one another. In this respect, it's more impactful as it feels smaller and more sincere. It isn't beating you over the head about how 'epic' or 'doomed' their romance will end up being. For this reason, it works. It's more charming and sweet-natured. Their love affair is helped by a never better John Barry score.

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    I suppose that brings me to Gorgeous George. Obviously, he is stunning. I totally believe him as a playboy spy who every woman would flock towards. At his best, he is reminiscent of a younger, more athletic Cary Grant. The problem is he isn't that charismatic and his line readings can be a little bland. They try to make him funny and more of a gentleman than Connery. It doesn't work. In fact, Lazenby is strongest in his sequences with Bernard Lee, where Bond is portrayed as angsty and brooding. I think they should perhaps have doubled-down on this aspect as it would not only have given George less dialogue but allowed him to portray a meaner, colder Bond. As presented, Lazenby is merely a casual, pleasant and satisfactory replacement to Sean Connery.

    Nevertheless, he does get better as the film goes along. His attempt to make Bond more vulnerable and human should also not be understated. It's just a shame that Sean Connery, having seen James Bond through the thinly two-dimensional days, should not be around for the new, more sensitive Bond.

    Peter Hunt brings real vibrancy and sophistication to the film with the Portuguese and Swiss scenic backgrounds caught in eyecatching colours. He's helped by Michael Reed who really understood the assignment.

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  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,228
    In short, rather than have an uninspired , bored performance from an out of shape Connery, it’s a better film without him; but, had Connery brought his A game, including being in top shape with proper grooming, a great film would have been even stronger. Rather than gaining recognition over time it would have been an instant classic.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 541
    OHMSS could've worked with Connery if it were one of his earlier films, back when Connery was fresh and the films were trying to be accurate with the novels.

    But by 1969, Connery grew tired in the role, may have given a subpar peformance and it would've contained campy elements to try to recreate the success of TB.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 735
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    OHMSS could've worked with Connery if it were one of his earlier films, back when Connery was fresh and the films were trying to be accurate with the novels.

    But by 1969, Connery grew tired in the role, may have given a subpar peformance and it would've contained campy elements to try to recreate the success of TB.
    It's probably been said elsewhere, but if it had been Connery we likely wouldn't have gotten Rigg, who I think was brought in to offset the inexperienced Lazenby. Instead, I think the producers were looking at Bardot or Deneuve, which if nothing else would have added to our by now impressive list of French Bond Girls ....

    But, if it comes down to a choice between a jaded, bored Connery and the sparkling jewel that is Diana in the film, well ....
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    edited November 2021 Posts: 541
    Yes, with Lazenby, EON felt the need to make every aspect of the film as good as possible. If the main actor isn't great, then they need a great script, director, soundtrack, etc.

    But with Connery, it'll sell no matter what, so there's less attention to quality. Just put some funny gags and gadgets, let Sean do Sean things, and profit.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 3,154
    Indeed. In an ideal world, you'd love to see Connery in OHMSS, but those two points you guys have hit on are crucial - Connery in 1969 wasn't the Bond of FRWL, either physically or in his attitude to the role; and Guy Hamilton said that if Connery had done OHMSS, they'd have got Bridget Bardot to play Tracy. We've seen Connery and Bardot together in Shalako, so you can sort of get an idea of it - but would it have been better? Hmmm. I don't have any trouble picturing Connery in OHMSS if he was in shape and interested, and I can also see the young Dalton there if he'd been up for it when they asked him. But I still can't see anyone except Diana Rigg as Tracy. That's how much she owned it. So if EON only hired her because Connery wasn't in it, then that's a good argument for OHMSS being better without him!
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 1,394
    I don’t know if they would have necessarily played it safe if Sean had been in OHMSS.How else would they have ended the film? There was no way Tracey was going to survive in any case.I think Hunt was such a good director that he would have actually elicited a great performance from Connery.

    Despite his tiredness with the role,I think the acting challenge of this particular story would have inspired Connery to go the extra mile on this one.I do think they possibly wouldn’t have gotten an actress of Riggs calibre to be his leading lady had he stuck around for this film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,192
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I don’t know if they would have necessarily played it safe if Sean had been in OHMSS.How else would they have ended the film? There was no way Tracey was going to survive in any case.I think Hunt was such a good director that he would have actually elicited a great performance from Connery.

    Despite his tiredness with the role,I think the acting challenge of this particular story would have inspired Connery to go the extra mile on this one.I do think they possibly wouldn’t have gotten an actress of Riggs calibre to be his leading lady had he stuck around for this film.

    Agreed.

    Also, IIRC, the treatments for OHMSS when it was originally slated to be made after GF actually still had Tracy die at the end, and that version featured a submarine car. So it seemed EON was always going to at least honor the ending of that novel. The difference is that Hunt stuck closer to it all across with only a few alterations to still give what audiences expect out of an action adventure film.

    Given how much more character work there is for Bond and Tracy, I think that would have reinvigorated Connery because thats what he really enjoyed most about the films with Terence Young was the character dynamics. In YOLT it’s practically non-existent because the filmmakers were more concerned with the fantastical elements, and that left Connery noticeably unengaged because he didn’t have much to play with on a character level.
  • Posts: 1,860
    Connery or no Connery, OHMSS still remains one of my favorite films of all time.
  • Posts: 2,919
    Venutius wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton said that if Connery had done OHMSS, they'd have got Bridget Bardot to play Tracy.

    For whatever the reason the producers were initially very keen on casting a French actress as Tracy--perhaps they wanted to make greater inroads into the French market?

    In 1967 Saltzman and Hunt went to France to see if Bardot would be interested, but before they could bring up the OHMSS she said she'd just signed onto Shalako with Sean Connery. Bullet dodged! In any case, Bardot was so big a star by '69 that it's not likely she would have been available at other times either.

    Hunt then tried pursuing Catherine Deneuve but she declined after her negative experience on another action film, much to Hunt's disappointment ("she would have been wonderful"). Three succeeding candidates were actresses Marie-France Boyer, and France Anglade, and the Swedish model Ageneta Eckmeyer. Boyer had the best chances of the bunch but her accent was too strong and they wanted someone with more experience. Agent Dennis Selinger proposed Diana Rigg and the rest was history.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 755
    I would love to see Deneuve in it with Connery

    I think Diana Rigg is probably a better actress though, so for Lazenby, it’s best she was in it to help raise him up (no pun intended)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,502
    I guess it is a bit unclear as to why Tracy is English in the movie.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,228
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess it is a bit unclear as to why Tracy is English in the movie.
    Probably boarding school.

  • Posts: 2,919
    And Tracy's mother "was an English girl...who had come to Corsica to look for bandits". In the film Draco says "We married. The result: Teresa. Twelve years later my wife died. I sent Teresa to Switzerland...To finish her education."

    Since Tracy was 12 when her mother died, she would have had enough time to learn English from her. It might have been the language they communicated in.

  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 735
    talos7 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess it is a bit unclear as to why Tracy is English in the movie.
    Probably boarding school.
    And her mother was English, wasn't she? In the book, as I recall ....
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    Excellent, I didn't know they'd approached Catherine Deneuve. I could see her with Connery, but it's not so easy to picture her with George, for some reason!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2021 Posts: 16,502
    Do you get a cut glass English accent in Corsica and Switzerland? I don’t mind hugely, it’s just a bit of a funny one.
    A bit like Vesper being a British Treasury officer and having a weird French(ish) accent.
  • Leon12Leon12 England
    Posts: 16
    IMHO the film would not have worked as well as it did if Connery had been in it. It is well documented that Connery had a strained relation with the producers, hence his non-appearance in this movie, so you would have got a disinterested and unfit Connery appearing in this movie if he had appeared in it. You only have to look at Diamonds are Forever, which is, again in my view, a nasty film, in which an overweight and balding Connery phones in his performance. Buy this stage he was just not into it anymore.
  • The film would not have been better with Connery in his current state of mind re: the series at the time of production.

    If Connery were fully engaged and committed to giving a good performance (OHMSS has some of the richest character writing for Bond), then it would've been much, much better.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    mtm wrote: »
    Do you get a cut glass English accent in Corsica and Switzerland? I don’t mind hugely, it’s just a bit of a funny one.
    Imagine if Diana Rigg couldn't shake her South Yorkshire accent - 'Ey nah then, spose a killed thi fer t'laugh?'
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    edited November 2021 Posts: 732
    It would only have worked if they filmed it right after TB, gave Connery a big paycheck on their own and still went back to basics with Bond after the already fantastical TB. After YOLT I doubt he would have cared enough anymore to bring his A-game.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    If we got pretty much the same film but with Connery at his most captivating, then absolutely it would be better.
    No offence to Lazenby but there's a lot riding on his shoulders in OHMSS and throughout most of it, his lacking acting ability shines through.
    Even for model he isn't that good looking, he just looks incredibly smug and unlikeable

    Now had this been Dalton...
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 755
    I think even Connery in YOLT mode is better than Lazenby. He’s a screen icon movie star and Lazenby is a model lucky to be there. Connery had both checked out and good moments in YOLT and he has screen presence to burn. That’s better than a serviceable wooden model with plenty of wonky acting moments.
  • I just can't see Connery play the final scene as well as Lazenby did.
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