Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    David Arnold saved Bond music.

    No, because it's part of the Brosnan era, which MontyshiftPython hates. :))
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Nah, if anything, Arnold elevated the Brosnan pictures.

    With his music, I'm able to enjoy them... enough.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    David Arnold saved Bond music.

    No, because it's part of the Brosnan era, which MontyshiftPython hates. :))

    Plot twist: I actually like his QOS score.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2021 Posts: 17,798
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    David Arnold saved Bond music.

    No, because it's part of the Brosnan era, which MontyshiftPython hates. :))

    Plot twist: I actually like his QOS score.

    Yeah, because he was allowed to be more Bondian with it than CR. And it was Craig, not Brosnan. ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2021 Posts: 8,183
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    David Arnold saved Bond music.

    No, because it's part of the Brosnan era, which MontyshiftPython hates. :))

    Plot twist: I actually like his QOS score.

    Yeah, because he was allowed to be more Bondian with it than CR. And it was Craig, not Brosnan. ;)

    Certainly better than his pastiche crap in TND.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    David Arnold saved Bond music.

    No, because it's part of the Brosnan era, which MontyshiftPython hates. :))

    Plot twist: I actually like his QOS score.

    Yeah, because he was allowed to be more Bondian with it than CR. And it was Craig, not Brosnan. ;)

    Certainly better than his pastiche crap in TND.

    You say 'pastiche crap' like it's a bad thing.... ;)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Certainly better than his pastiche crap in TND.
    kROoZ9g.gif

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Here’s how I’d rank the Arnold scores:

    QOS
    DAD
    CR
    TWINE
    TND
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    In TND, they told Arnold 'do Barry as much as you can' in response to fans saying GE's main weakness was its score. In CR they said 'stay away from Barry as much as you can' because they wanted it to feel new, as Bond himself was supposed to be new to the double-0.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    chrisisall wrote: »
    In TND, they told Arnold 'do Barry as much as you can' in response to fans saying GE's main weakness was its score. In CR they said 'stay away from Barry as much as you can' because they wanted it to feel new, as Bond himself was supposed to be new to the double-0.

    Don’t you mean that with CR they told him to not use the Bond THEME? Because I still hear plenty of the “Bond sound” in CR.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    chrisisall wrote: »
    In TND, they told Arnold 'do Barry as much as you can' in response to fans saying GE's main weakness was its score. In CR they said 'stay away from Barry as much as you can' because they wanted it to feel new, as Bond himself was supposed to be new to the double-0.

    Don’t you mean that with CR they told him to not use the Bond THEME? Because I still hear plenty of the “Bond sound” in CR.

    Bond sound without Barry's themes? And if you hear plenty of what you label Bond sound, why do you dislike the score so much?
    Error... error...
    Faulty.... must ster-il-ize!
    :P
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,033
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    In TND, they told Arnold 'do Barry as much as you can' in response to fans saying GE's main weakness was its score. In CR they said 'stay away from Barry as much as you can' because they wanted it to feel new, as Bond himself was supposed to be new to the double-0.

    Don’t you mean that with CR they told him to not use the Bond THEME? Because I still hear plenty of the “Bond sound” in CR.

    Bond sound without Barry's themes? And if you hear plenty of what you label Bond sound, why do you dislike the score so much?
    Error... error...
    Faulty.... must ster-il-ize!
    :P

    It’s not the Bond sound, mate. It’s how you use it. ;)

    I’d elaborate more, but I’m at work. In short, however method Marc Forster had Arnold score the film, it GREATLY helped! And I’m not really a fan of Forster’s contributions, but as far as music goes, he did good.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?

    TWINE, but I do find more rewatch value in TMWTGG.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?

    TWINE, but I do find more rewatch value in TMWTGG.

    I picked those two because I like them equally for very different reasons.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?

    TMWTGG. In spite of its many MANY flaws, it still has a John Barry score and a measure of levity to it. TWINE just flat out bores me.
    It’s too bad David Arnold wasn’t given the boot like Vic Armstrong. CR could use a better score.

    How strong is your dislike for Arnold’s music? I’ve never really thought of him as the true successor to John Barry like a lot of others tend to think of him, but I get the impression your just not a huge fan of the mans input. How come if I may ask? I’ve always felt it serviceable at best

    I’m just not a fan of how he utilizes the Bond sound, he has a tendency to do what’s known as “overwriting” and a lot of his action/tension cues feel more generic than riveting. It’s frustrating because there are a few cues that I think he does excellent work with, complimenting scenes like Bond breaking in and out of the facility in Hamburg. When I listen to his scores I too often find myself skipping over a ton of tracks so I can just get to the ones I like.

    The only score I listen start to finish is QOS. It feels more fleshed out. He still does his typical flourishes here and there (during the roof top chase), but for the most part it feels more organic. It’s hard to explain (plus I’m drunk now). He’s doing the Bond sound, but it’s not just him riffing Barry like he did with previous scores. “Inside Man” feels Bondian but without being reverent to the old 60s sound like TND. I really dig how he utilizes Vesper’s theme in a way that makes it sound more haunting.

    If QOS turns out to be the last piece of Bond work Arnold has done, then he left on very good terms just like how Barry did with TLD.
  • Posts: 1,394
    David Arnolds ready to return!

  • Posts: 1,917
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?
    TMWTGG, no question, especially given TWINE is my dead-last film. Who would want to put up with Carlisle's lovesick teen angst villain over Chris Lee and Nick Nack? I'll even go out on a limb and say I'd rather watch JW Pepper flailing around an AMC Hornet and getting pushed into a canal by an elephant than Zukovsky flailing around in a vat of caviar and perfectly shooting off a lock while taking his last breath. The relatively short AMC spiral jump over the canal was more exciting than any of the action in the whole of TWINE as well.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BT3366 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?
    TMWTGG, no question, especially given TWINE is my dead-last film. Who would want to put up with Carlisle's lovesick teen angst villain over Chris Lee and Nick Nack? I'll even go out on a limb and say I'd rather watch JW Pepper flailing around an AMC Hornet and getting pushed into a canal by an elephant than Zukovsky flailing around in a vat of caviar and perfectly shooting off a lock while taking his last breath. The relatively short AMC spiral jump over the canal was more exciting than any of the action in the whole of TWINE as well.

    Agree with every word.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2021 Posts: 16,394
    mtm wrote: »
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.

    Those are great, indeed. Inventive and exciting.

    And, to be fair, I think the car ice chase in DAD is fairly well staged, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure it's probably hard to craft a sequence like that when you are obligated to work in a gazillion gadgets to the sequence too - especially when it results in the vehicles basically just firing rockets of increasing size at each other. I'll cut him some slack for that.

    Yeah I watched DAD again recently and I was surprised how much I enjoyed that scene. A lot of it is filmed from half a mile away, but it does look unlike anything in any other film, and it's good fun stuff. Arnold's music really powers it through too. Honestly, even though it's not a great sequence, I'd still rate it above the NTTD Norway car chase (which occurs at about the same point in the film).
    peter wrote: »
    @mtm I agree that the PTS in TND moves very well and is pretty awesome , but, and I could be wrong, I think this has more to do with the editing... It's slick.

    Yeah, the editing in TWINE is a lot worse than in TND and even DAD, I'd agree.
    I will never not be amazed by the shoddiness of this sequence, where Bond appears to watch his own stunt double.

    TWINEski-Bond.gif
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    BT3366 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?
    TMWTGG, no question, especially given TWINE is my dead-last film. Who would want to put up with Carlisle's lovesick teen angst villain over Chris Lee and Nick Nack? I'll even go out on a limb and say I'd rather watch JW Pepper flailing around an AMC Hornet and getting pushed into a canal by an elephant than Zukovsky flailing around in a vat of caviar and perfectly shooting off a lock while taking his last breath. The relatively short AMC spiral jump over the canal was more exciting than any of the action in the whole of TWINE as well.

    Agree with every word.

    Yes, please. Count me in. TMWTGG any day, and every day over TWINE (Moore is a far superior James Bond; there’s a better villain, a better score, better henchman…)…
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited December 2021 Posts: 3,497
    Pryce, Hatcher, silly "quips", and it's apparently chaotic production.

    Oh and not using KD Lang's Surrender as the title track is one of the worst things that has happened to the franchise.
  • Posts: 7,420
    peter wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?
    TMWTGG, no question, especially given TWINE is my dead-last film. Who would want to put up with Carlisle's lovesick teen angst villain over Chris Lee and Nick Nack? I'll even go out on a limb and say I'd rather watch JW Pepper flailing around an AMC Hornet and getting pushed into a canal by an elephant than Zukovsky flailing around in a vat of caviar and perfectly shooting off a lock while taking his last breath. The relatively short AMC spiral jump over the canal was more exciting than any of the action in the whole of TWINE as well.

    Agree with every word.

    Yes, please. Count me in. TMWTGG any day, and every day over TWINE (Moore is a far superior James Bond; there’s a better villain, a better score, better henchman…)…

    +1
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?

    TMWTGG. In spite of its many MANY flaws, it still has a John Barry score and a measure of levity to it. TWINE just flat out bores me.
    It’s too bad David Arnold wasn’t given the boot like Vic Armstrong. CR could use a better score.

    How strong is your dislike for Arnold’s music? I’ve never really thought of him as the true successor to John Barry like a lot of others tend to think of him, but I get the impression your just not a huge fan of the mans input. How come if I may ask? I’ve always felt it serviceable at best

    I’m just not a fan of how he utilizes the Bond sound, he has a tendency to do what’s known as “overwriting” and a lot of his action/tension cues feel more generic than riveting. It’s frustrating because there are a few cues that I think he does excellent work with, complimenting scenes like Bond breaking in and out of the facility in Hamburg. When I listen to his scores I too often find myself skipping over a ton of tracks so I can just get to the ones I like.

    I agree with that. There’s something about Arnold’s scores for those Brosnan films that feel so “by the numbers” and generic. I think that comes from Sierra/GE creating such a unique atmosphere for that film that doesn’t get recreated again in any of the following films, so it feels to me like a bit of a letdown going into TND’s score, the big constant blaring of the Bond theme to make up for that lack of Bondian sound in Goldeneye.

    I myself tend to prefer what Arnold did for both Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, the latter, as you mentioned, is probably his best work with the series. The only negative to that is I got kind of sick of hearing “The Names Bond, James Bond” from Casino Royale play in about every film that followed, albeit perhaps in slightly different arrangements. Having Hans Zimmer for NTTD was a huge breath of fresh air, even after having Thomas Newman, who didn’t really do much for me personally.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I think EON wanted repeat use of that cue for Craig’s films similar to how the 1962 Bond theme recording was used throughout the 60s films. Thankfully by NTTD Zimmer opted to bring his own version rather than Arnold’s arrangement.

    On the other hand, I wish Zimmer did a full rendition of the theme for NTTD. Big missed opportunity there. Maybe he’ll make up for it if EON hires him again.
  • Posts: 1,394
    BT3366 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?
    TMWTGG, no question, especially given TWINE is my dead-last film. Who would want to put up with Carlisle's lovesick teen angst villain over Chris Lee and Nick Nack? I'll even go out on a limb and say I'd rather watch JW Pepper flailing around an AMC Hornet and getting pushed into a canal by an elephant than Zukovsky flailing around in a vat of caviar and perfectly shooting off a lock while taking his last breath. The relatively short AMC spiral jump over the canal was more exciting than any of the action in the whole of TWINE as well.

    Disagree with every word.

  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    David Arnold saved Bond music.
    Tomorrow Never Dies soundtrack is a complete banger. I don’t mind the overuse of the Bond theme in it. It suits the kind of film it is IMO.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,033
    chrisisall wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    General question from the thread title: Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

    My general answer: Really not much...and probably less than in about ten or twelve other Bond films. One always finds some stupid or illogical scenes or plot holes in Bond movies, and TND is certainly not an exception. But overall it's just as much middle-of-the-road popcorn fare as many other of the franchise's films. I like it, and I don't worry about its shortcomings. It's definitely better than its two successors, which always form the bottom two on my ranking lists. One of the two better Brosnan films.

    Oh yes, and David Arnold's score is one of the best that are not John Barry's, or George Martin's.

    Here's a question (that I don't want to start a whole thread for): someone says they're gonna put on a Bond move & gives you the choice: TMWTGG or TWINE- which do you choose?

    As you asked this question in response to my own posting, I think I owe you a belated answer, and it is:

    Definitely TMWTGG at any time, although it is only (but exactly) in the middle of my Roger Moore Bond ratings, and that's not too good overall. But the dismal TWINE was the only reason why I found the first half or so of DAD so promising initially, only to end up being even more dramatically disappointed after the first half. Still leaves TWINE as the second-worst.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2021 Posts: 16,394
    I think EON wanted repeat use of that cue for Craig’s films similar to how the 1962 Bond theme recording was used throughout the 60s films. Thankfully by NTTD Zimmer opted to bring his own version rather than Arnold’s arrangement.

    On the other hand, I wish Zimmer did a full rendition of the theme for NTTD. Big missed opportunity there. Maybe he’ll make up for it if EON hires him again.

    Although to be fair to Zimmer, there aren't really any scenes in NTTD in which a full version of the Bond theme would work- Bond is never swaggering triumphant in a way that would suit the theme. The Cuba bit is the only spot really, and even then it's Paloma who actually does the Bondy thing by crashing the car.
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