NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2022 Posts: 3,874
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I wonder what happened to the members who spent the better part of Fall and Winter ranting about NTTD like there's no tomorrow, only to confess they had neither seen the film nor planned to. That was an interesting, somewhat surreal "first reactions" experience. I'm curious about their current reactions. More deconstruction of a film they haven't seen?

    After seeing the film, I could see those members forming their opinions like this:

    Hater 1: Yea, it's quite decent, but not one of the best.
    Hater 2: Just watched the film.....And I liked it!
    Hater 3: Nah, Bond's dead, not going to watch it again, but it's a lot better than (insert a Bond film that they hated the most)
    Hater 4: My God! This film made me cry!
    Hater 5: Woke! Fleming, Cubby, and Connery (does Connery care after all? 8-| ), would be rolling in their graves, and yes, I've read the books!

    :))
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,562
    MI6HQ wrote: »

    After seeing the film, I could see those members forming their opinions like this:

    Hater 1: Yea, it's quite decent, but not one of the best.
    Hater 2: Just watched the film.....And I liked it!
    Hater 3: Nah, Bond's dead, not going to watch it again, but it's a lot better than (insert a Bond film that they hated the most)
    Hater 4: My God! This film made me cry!
    Hater 5: Woke! Fleming, Cubby, and Connery (does Connery care after all? 8-| ), would be rolling in their graves, and yes, I've read the books!

    :))

    Ah yes, the FFF or Flaming Fleming Fallacy; the argument that if it ain't Fleming, it ain't Bond. Because
    • books and films are the same;
    • it's a crime to deviate from source material that was written between six and seven decades ago;
    • the other Bond films followed Fleming to a fault.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,957
    Was greatly disappointed with the scene of Bond carrying dead snapper along the jetty.

    Certainly a missed opportunity for a classic John Glen-style animal scare.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,735
    One thing I'm surprised about, is given how much they reference OHMSS I'm surprised they didn't try to recreate or re-imagine that wonderful shot of Bond in the helicopter looking pensive before the raid on Piz Gloria.

    Something like Bond just looking deep in thought before the raid on Safin's Island, given his fate it would have been fitting. Rather than him joking around with Q and Nomi given the danger his family are in.

    There was a moment in Skyfall when he's looking out before M drops the F bomb were he's deep in thought and gears the audience up for some ominous danger. Plus it would be a signal to the audience that Bond might not make it back from this mission
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,113
    I would've loved to have seen something like that, @Jordo007, and it wouldn't take up much more runtime (especially if they cut out some lighthearted comedy in favor of it). That scene in SF is one of my favorites from the film.
  • Yes one of my problems with NTTD is its uneven tone and relentless pace. We’re given very little time to just sit with the characters and take in how they’re feeling at any given point and some of the comedic beats really felt at odds with the heightened tragic drama they were going for. Something I liked about The Batman by comparison was that it really allowed the film to breathe and though there was a good amount of comedic beats they felt better integrated into the situations.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited July 2022 Posts: 554
    Yes one of my problems with NTTD is its uneven tone and relentless pace. We’re given very little time to just sit with the characters and take in how they’re feeling at any given point and some of the comedic beats really felt at odds with the heightened tragic drama they were going for. Something I liked about The Batman by comparison was that it really allowed the film to breathe and though there was a good amount of comedic beats they felt better integrated into the situations.
    One of the best scenes was Bond just staring at the cigar he got for Felix in the lifeboat.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    One thing I'm surprised about, is given how much they reference OHMSS I'm surprised they didn't try to recreate or re-imagine that wonderful shot of Bond in the helicopter looking pensive before the raid on Piz Gloria.

    Something like Bond just looking deep in thought before the raid on Safin's Island, given his fate it would have been fitting. Rather than him joking around with Q and Nomi given the danger his family are in.

    There was a moment in Skyfall when he's looking out before M drops the F bomb were he's deep in thought and gears the audience up for some ominous danger. Plus it would be a signal to the audience that Bond might not make it back from this mission

    Yes, Something of that ilk. Craig's Bond making the audience feel the impending danger. I think the reason for NTTD's uneven tone is, because they prioritized Bond's death even before the script's birth, so they weren't entirely meticulous towards other aspects of the film. I'm not an exact fan of a dying Bond, but if the film maintained the tone of the opening Norway and Matera scenes, Bond's death would have worked. Also very wrong directing, that Bond jokes with Q and Nomi, when he should be immensely worried about his family in the hands of an evil man. Wow!...just wow! Although, I like the way M gave them his instructions on the plane before the jokes started.

    Also, we often talk about how pacy the film is. It's pacy because most of the film's scenes or locations are over too quickly, especially the action scenes. It would have been nice to show Bond use the spear gun in Jamaica in an underwater scene, maybe Bond Vs a Shark that interrupts his hunting, before he eventually succeeds. Also, show him in his house in Jamaica alone and brooding with a drink, because this is a film, he dies, so this is a Bond film Craig's Bond should have really done intense brooding the most. Also, critics aren't wrong when they often malign Michael Bay's films for his fast camera style and quick-cutting, but Bay's films immerses the viewer deeply into the detailed action. Not saying Bay is the best director, but for a director renowned for his fast shooting and fast-cutting style, his action scenes don't end too quickly like it does in NTTD.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,735
    @Creasy47 absolutely mate. It need something to just show us the audience that this is a dangerous mission and potentially suicidal for our hero

    A lot of lighthearted comedy didn't land with me and it's only got worse upon each viewing. That part on the plane especially, it just felt so out of place. Bond looked so despondent when Nomi picked him up, so to see them joking in the plane was annoying if anything.

    @SomethingThatAteHim that's it mate. I enjoy bits of NTTD, but I can't buy into certain situations because it's not built up enough. The humour undercuts the severity of situations too often, for cheap laughs. I haven't seen The Batman, but I've heard nothing but good things
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,606
    One of the best scenes was Bond just staring at the cigar he got for Felix in the lifeboat.

    Agreed.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 2022 Posts: 3,261
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Something like Bond just looking deep in thought before the raid on Safin's Island, given his fate it would have been fitting. Rather than him joking around with Q and Nomi given the danger his family are in.
    Yes, to say that he's just failed to stop Safin taking Madeleine and Mathilde, I thought the 'Fairly strong?!' gag was completely out of place. Another one of NTTD's lurching tonal shifts.
  • Posts: 2,171

    Despite the absence of my favorite Bond actor, OHMSS and CR are the best two films of the series. Two great actresses, neither of whom I consider Bond girls, but Bond women equal to or better than their co-stars. Both fully evolved characters created from writing that is all too rare in Bond films. For me the first four films remain the blueprint for a series that has never managed to recapture what made those films special.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,562

    "Cubby, I've got a shuper idea!"
    "What's that, Sean?"
    "Well in the next film, we'll kill James Bond off"
    "We can't do that, we want this series to carry on as long as we can"
    "That's okay, it'll be my last one, just cast another actor for the next one"
    "To play who?"
    "James Bond"
    "But he'll be dead!"
    "No, it'll be a new character arc"
    "What the hell's that?"
    "It's where one timeline stops and another starts"
    "Timeline? what are you on about?"
    "It'll be a reboot"
    "You want new boots?"
    "Nooo! It's a thing. You kill him, but he carries on"
    "So he doesn't die?"
    "No, one James Bond dies, then the next one starts up again"
    "Ah, the codename theory. I get it now"
    "No, it's the same character, but in a different universe"
    "But these films aren't sci-fi Sean. Have you been on the Jamesons?"
    "Och, you have no vision Cubby. It's all about taking chances and subverting the character".
    "It sounds daft"
    "But I want to have a death scene, all good actors want a death scene, I WANT HIM TO DIE!!!"
    "Sorry Sean, no actor is bigger than James Bond. We'll go for the flaming kebabs and bomb in a cake idea. Thanks for stopping by, and your new toupee's on the hat rack, you can grab it on the way out".

    Lovely. 😄

    But, @ColonelAdamski, I am surprised that you never returned to your superhero comments from a few pages back, to which others and myself have taken a lot of time to respond. I mean, it's easy to drop clumsy remarks and then stay away for a few days and hope that the case has closed itself. Unless, of course, your silence means that you stand corrected, in which case I am glad that is how things turned out. 😉
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,476
    Michael G Wilson has already been saying as far back as 1994 that he views each of the actors as separate iterations of Bond. There may be rare references here and there to previous films with different actors, and supporting actors carry over, but in Wilson’s view Pierce Brosnan wasn’t playing the same Bond character as Roger Moore, just as Roger Moore wasn’t playing the same Bond character as Sean Connery. With Craig, it was the most overt reboot, aside from Judi Dench carrying over. Now we’re gonna get that with the seventh Bond actor, however they decide to pull it off.

    That is why “James Bond will return” is said at the end of NTTD, because the producers have confidence in audiences understanding the conceit that each actor is essentially a reboot and that there will be no major fuss or confusion.
  • Posts: 2,161
    That’s all obvious. No one’s confused. It’s just a matter of taste. Your general audience doesn’t care enough to be confused.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,536
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That’s all obvious. No one’s confused. It’s just a matter of taste. Your general audience doesn’t care enough to be confused.

    Go on some of the Facebook groups. There's a decent amount of confusion.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited July 2022 Posts: 1,731
    Gentlemen, you're both right. General audiences don't care and they are also confused. :))
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2022 Posts: 17,624
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That’s all obvious. No one’s confused. It’s just a matter of taste. Your general audience doesn’t care enough to be confused.

    A lot of people on here have expressed confusion as to how he can die and yet 'Will Return'.
    I agree that the general audience will cope with it just fine though.
  • Posts: 3,346
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    Ah yes, the FFF or Flaming Fleming Fallacy; the argument that if it ain't Fleming, it ain't Bond. Because
    • books and films are the same;
    • it's a crime to deviate from source material that was written between six and seven decades ago;
    • the other Bond films followed Fleming to a fault.

    I can be guilty of FFF, but even I'm realistic that they cannot fully adopt any of the books anymore, as they are now very dated.

    However, what I would like to see is a return to Fleming scenes dropped into an original story (80's Maibaum/Glen got this down to a tee with FYEO, OP, TLD, LTK).

    I also think LTK felt like the entire script was adapted from a Fleming novel, even though it wasn't, probably down to Dalton being a fan of the books so pushed for a return to that kind of tone.

    CR worked too, managing to update and modernise a Fleming book written back in 1952. So going back to the source can work, if done properly.
  • edited July 2022 Posts: 1,106
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But, @ColonelAdamski, I am surprised that you never returned to your superhero comments from a few pages back, to which others and myself have taken a lot of time to respond. I mean, it's easy to drop clumsy remarks and then stay away for a few days and hope that the case has closed itself. Unless, of course, your silence means that you stand corrected, in which case I am glad that is how things turned out. 😉

    I saw what you wrote, and you seemed to take what I'd written quite personally, as if I'd questioned your 'fan credentials', which I don't think I did. But I couldn't see any point responding because everyone here could see what I wrote (which was hardly contentious), and make up their own mind about whether I needed chastising.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,562
    I am glad that's settled then.
  • edited July 2022 Posts: 1,106
    :)
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 226
    MI6HQ wrote: »

    What a great write up man! I agree with every word, we have almost the same feelings towards this film.

    Agreed with this review 👍

    1. I would enjoy it too had it been a stand-alone film, I think it would be good if Blofeld's comeuppance remained somewhat vague, that he'd been arrested and it would be left to the viewers' imaginations, like whatever happened to him was purely a speculation from the fans, and it's unique in the sense that he might be the first Bond 'Main' Villain to live another day.

    2. Yes, really agreed about the whole Madeleine arc, it would be refreshing too had they said that it didn't worked out, typical like in the books where his relationship with Tiffany Case didn't worked, it's a move from the books that they still hadn't done yet, it would be refreshing to see instead of killing her off.

    3. The child thing was quite a bit questionable for me these days, like okay Bond and Madeleine had sex ok, but it's too brief. What I mean here was Bond had sex with so many women and more explicit and longer than that with Madeleine, and in that sudden quick they have a child together?! For sure Bond already fathered more child before, and that torture scene in Casino Royale should make It hard for him to have a child at least, it should take maybe more weeks of sex before they could even have a child.

    4. When it comes to Vesper, I don't like both either references to SP and NTTD, because for me, Bond already found his peace of mind at the ending of Quantum of Solace, she's even not that mentioned in Skyfall, means we expect Bond to move on from it, then to have her reference back in SP and him visiting her grave didn't made sense. So are they're saying here that QoS was really a mistake? Like all of what happened in that film was just nothing because Bond couldn't still move on from her death?

    5. When it comes to PTS it's just a nitpickery from the filmmakers here, like who remembers that little backstory that Madeleine told in the train? I suspect no one remember it not even you mate, so to expand it here, magnified it here and made it more complicated was pure nonsense, there so many back stories from the other Bond Girls In the franchise that they didn't explored, but picked this one where no one even remembers it?

    6. Agreed about Nomi taken out of the action, I understand that it's still Bond but it's also unbelievable to me that a 50+ years old something old man could take up a whole batallion in that base, without any help? And this was also the man who's been out of service and never got any training for 5 years, and yet could still eliminate all of Safin's armed men?! Unbelievable. And also Madeleine could take it all by herself without the need of Nomi, so why Nomi went with them? She's still a 00 Agent and Madeleine could take care all of that by herself, that babysitting thing and etc.

    7. Bond's death for me was an overkill, Safin shot him many times and he could die from it, maybe those gunshots would make him a bit slow and weak and him getting out of island would ran out of time, and it's a lot more acceptable rather than that of Nanobots Are Forever nonsense.

    All in all, it's a nonsense, over complicated film for me, and yes the main thing that ruined this film for me was it being a continuation of SP.

    This film in my opinion should be just a stand-alone mission about Bond, Nomi, Paloma and Safin and his nanobots.

    Regardless of NTTD, for the benefit of younger or naive visitors, I feel honourbound to point out that that is not how sex or making babies works. One time can indeed be plenty, duration is not really a consideration. XD
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,476
    None of it will matter by the time the next film arrives.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,562
    None of it will matter by the time the next film arrives.

    Indeed, it won't, which is why the fearmongering about NTTD cementing some sort of a definitive template for all future films to come is absurd.
  • Posts: 3,346
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    Indeed, it won't, which is why the fearmongering about NTTD cementing some sort of a definitive template for all future films to come is absurd.

    Depending on how well the next Bond film does, both in terms of praise from fans/critics, and at the BO, could have an affect on how NTTD is perceived when looking back.

    DAD probably had its fans at the time, but once CR was released, DAD was (quite rightly) universally knocked from just about every quarter of the planet, when comparing it to the newly rebooted fresh take on Bond.
  • Posts: 1,106
    I think for some people, the damage to the series' credibility has already been done. I certainly have less faith that the Bond series will continue in a way that I used to enjoy.
    But I still have the originals to enjoy if I want some basic escapist fun, and I suppose 99% of cinema goers aren't nearly as invested as some people here. It's Batman one week, Bond the next, then whatever else.
  • edited July 2022 Posts: 3,346
    I think for some people, the damage to the series' credibility has already been done. I certainly have less faith that the Bond series will continue in a way that I used to enjoy.
    But I still have the originals to enjoy if I want some basic escapist fun, and I suppose 99% of cinema goers aren't nearly as invested as some people here. It's Batman one week, Bond the next, then whatever else.

    I still live in hope that with the new actor, the producers (whoever they may be) are forced into going back to basics again with the reboot, and this usually means a return to Fleming. If we have new producers they may decide to do a few things that Babs and Mickey haven't been able to do in recent years. And that would be adapting unused Fleming material.

    Ideally I'd like a story that incorporated MR, DAF, TSWLM and TMWTGG scenes, but if not then a full adaptation of one of the Horowitz novels (makes sense to do Forever and a Day). Again, new producers may deem it necessary to start licensing the novels now for adaptation, likewise sort out the legal restrictions on TSWLM.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2022 Posts: 24,562
    I think for some people, the damage to the series' credibility has already been done. I certainly have less faith that the Bond series will continue in a way that I used to enjoy.
    But I still have the originals to enjoy if I want some basic escapist fun, and I suppose 99% of cinema goers aren't nearly as invested as some people here. It's Batman one week, Bond the next, then whatever else.

    The times are changing. Cinema isn't what it used to be. A lot of (sometimes really good) material is being siphoned off to TV series and films for streaming services. Filmmakers interested in profitably bringing expensive pictures to the traditional 'big screens' have to re-think their strategies. The Bonds are no exception. Perhaps more films but with more modest budgets? With an ounce of luck, the changing times will set the EON films on a path that will please us all.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,545
    Unfortunately @DarthDimi , no matter what EoN does, it will never satisfy all of this fan-base. I’m still taken aback by the negative reactions for NTTD. It’s like some have taken it personally— as if the creatives (from the lead actor, to the producers, to the distributors (who have to sign off on everything since they’re selling to the marketplace), went out of their way to purposefully tick them off (instead of seeing this was a creative choice that they all agreed would work to end this era)!
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