CASINO ROYALE: Daniel Craig's best?

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    If you don't like this, Bond may not be for you.

    Now, as a non-fan of the movie, I have to wonder, what would the second movie be?

    "Hey, if you loved Casino Royale, wait til you see Dr No, The Spy Who Loved Me, and The Living Daylights!" Not sure...

    :-?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I still resent the fact that SF, a lesser film IMO, made almost twice as much as CR. 😉

    I know it’s sacrilege to say, but I find SF a bit… boring. Like they were so, so careful to create something that would be “iconic” and “classic” that they sucked a lot of the fun out of it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2022 Posts: 3,152
    SF? Better than SP and NTTD, but nowhere near approaching the level of CR and QOS. But we've already got a ratings thread, sorry...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I love SF more than CR. I can watch that film pretty much anytime in comparison to CR.
  • edited September 2022 Posts: 4,139
    I'm in the SF preference camp myself. I know it had the advantage of coming out during the 50th anniversary and had had a lead in with the London Olympics segment, but as I always say, the amount of people I knew at the time who went to see that film two, three, even four times was crazy. It was comparable to the first Avengers film amongst people my age in that sense, which also came out that year. Most of my friends weren't even Bond fans. I really can't say this was the same for QOS, SP or NTTD. Even CR, much loved as it is, didn't quite hit that same level of excitement, not just with the lead up to the film, but coming out of it too.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    Only in the UK.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Don't get me wrong, I think SF is a gorgeous and excellently put together film. And it has one of my favourite scenes in the whole franchise.
  • edited September 2022 Posts: 784
    Please spare this sacred thread of your misguided SF fanaticisms.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Please spare this sacred thread of your misguided SF fanaticisms.

    Your defiance only encourages more love for SF. The more you hate it, the more we love it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    SF is a good film. It's just my least favourite of the Craigs.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    Deleted
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Having just rewatched QOS, it remains my least favorite of the Craig films.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2022 Posts: 28,694
    The Craig era is the only era where I genuinely love every movie, which is pretty crazy. Every other era has at least two or more that I just don't care for or don't like to watch. So whatever Craig film I rank last I rank last because one of those damn things had to go in that spot. ;-) I feel ridiculously blessed that I came of age during this period in Bond's history. Just wish I was only enough and into Bond at the time CR and QoS were in theaters. One day I shall see both on the big screen, somehow, someway. Even if I have to make my own damn theater.
    Please spare this sacred thread of your misguided SF fanaticisms.
    I just have to ask, when did liking things become fanaticism?
  • CASINO ROYALE, ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE and FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE are the classics in the series.

    CASINO is a tremendous picture, the best since OHMSS, imo.
  • Posts: 1,985
    I'm always of the opinion that a 'masterpiece' is quite a subjective term

    I agree. A few films rise to level of masterpiece, but not CR, which shares first place with OHMSS as the best Bond films. The strength of both films is that they take the time to develop the characters of Bond's love interests. That I don't consider it a masterpiece does not lessen its excellence. For me the Miami airport segment runs a bit too long and has always felt it didn't really belong in this film. It comes across as Die Hard meets Casino Royale. And the Venice house collapse feels a bit inflated. But these are quibbles. SC remains my favorite Bond, yet I have watched CR more than any other Bond film.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Have to fess that I've skipped the Miami section a few times.
    I'll, er, get my coat...
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    I said above that I think CR is a masterpiece, but I can admit the Miami section is a huge drag. The action is alright, but Bond looks terrible, and it's sort of an unneeded scene IMO. Bond's already chased the bombmaker, and the first time was way, way better.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The thing that saves the Miami sequence is its importance in the plot, being that what Bond does in that sequence demands that Le Chiffre look for a way to recoup his lost money. Without it, Le Chiffre has no need to do what he does afterward. But I do get what people mean. It's crazy that it takes almost an hour on the dot for any talk of a card game to come up, in a film entirely predicated on Bond facing his enemy in a high stakes gambling game.

    I guess they could've come up with another way for Le Chiffre to lose the money, or have it explained offscreen that he lost it to some equally bad bet that went sideways, but I don't mind the Miami section. It's definitely the weakest section of the film, but even the weakest part of CR is some of the best in the series.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I think the Miami sequence is great fun.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited September 2022 Posts: 1,032
    Agree very much with the above comments - Miami is the weakest part of the film, but all in all it’s not too bad. Could use a good 4-5 min snip / edit and it would solve the problem.

    This is the best part of CR to go use the toilet or mix another drink.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    The thing that saves the Miami sequence is its importance in the plot, being that what Bond does in that sequence demands that Le Chiffre look for a way to recoup his lost money. Without it, Le Chiffre has no need to do what he does afterward. But I do get what people mean. It's crazy that it takes almost an hour on the dot for any talk of a card game to come up, in a film entirely predicated on Bond facing his enemy in a high stakes gambling game.

    I guess they could've come up with another way for Le Chiffre to lose the money, or have it explained offscreen that he lost it to some equally bad bet that went sideways, but I don't mind the Miami section. It's definitely the weakest section of the film, but even the weakest part of CR is some of the best in the series.

    I think, if I'm recalling correctly, our Miami friend was just a replacement for Mollaka ("I have another man willing to do the job" - Dmitrios). I think they could have illustrated that Mollaka's job ultimately was build the bomb, take it to Miami and blow up Skyfleet with it (which I think *was* probably the original plan, the film makes it seem like Miami friend is only introduced because Mollaka is taken out). We could have had Bond foil that plot when he takes Mollaka out, and still have that scene with Le Chiffre talking to his investment banker ("I haven't yet calculated how much you've lost..." etc).

    Plot-wise it just feels like the Mollaka chase and the Miami Friend chase narratively serve the exact same purpose. To put it otherwise, if the Miami chase was far enough away from Skyfleet, Dmitrios could have replaced *him* with *another* guy, and we'd have a *third* chase scene, ad infinitum (ifs and buts, but hopefully you can see my point).

    However, clearly there are people who enjoy the Miami sequence, so, what do I know. I'm not going to sit here and try to say I could do a better job than Martin f***ing Campbell!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The thing that saves the Miami sequence is its importance in the plot, being that what Bond does in that sequence demands that Le Chiffre look for a way to recoup his lost money. Without it, Le Chiffre has no need to do what he does afterward. But I do get what people mean. It's crazy that it takes almost an hour on the dot for any talk of a card game to come up, in a film entirely predicated on Bond facing his enemy in a high stakes gambling game.

    I guess they could've come up with another way for Le Chiffre to lose the money, or have it explained offscreen that he lost it to some equally bad bet that went sideways, but I don't mind the Miami section. It's definitely the weakest section of the film, but even the weakest part of CR is some of the best in the series.

    I think, if I'm recalling correctly, our Miami friend was just a replacement for Mollaka ("I have another man willing to do the job" - Dmitrios). I think they could have illustrated that Mollaka's job ultimately was build the bomb, take it to Miami and blow up Skyfleet with it (which I think *was* probably the original plan, the film makes it seem like Miami friend is only introduced because Mollaka is taken out). We could have had Bond foil that plot when he takes Mollaka out, and still have that scene with Le Chiffre talking to his investment banker ("I haven't yet calculated how much you've lost..." etc).

    @NickTwentyTwo, basically, have it so that once Bond kills the initial bomb maker, Le Chiffre is unable to line up another person to do the job and them the prototype survives? That's an interesting idea. Then we still get to keep that sick opening sequence. B-)

    I guess part of the reason for including Carlos after the fact is to show that whoever Le Chiffre is working with is very resilient and will always try to find a way to get what they want, which puts Bond in a dangerous position. He's working against a force that won't stop so easily. Some of this plotting could be viewed as padding, given how long CR itself is already and the fact that the novel starts with Bond already at the casino, but I love all the set up, the moments of escalating rivalry with Bond and Dimitrios, and of course the lovely Solange.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    The thing that saves the Miami sequence is its importance in the plot, being that what Bond does in that sequence demands that Le Chiffre look for a way to recoup his lost money. Without it, Le Chiffre has no need to do what he does afterward. But I do get what people mean. It's crazy that it takes almost an hour on the dot for any talk of a card game to come up, in a film entirely predicated on Bond facing his enemy in a high stakes gambling game.

    I guess they could've come up with another way for Le Chiffre to lose the money, or have it explained offscreen that he lost it to some equally bad bet that went sideways, but I don't mind the Miami section. It's definitely the weakest section of the film, but even the weakest part of CR is some of the best in the series.

    I think, if I'm recalling correctly, our Miami friend was just a replacement for Mollaka ("I have another man willing to do the job" - Dmitrios). I think they could have illustrated that Mollaka's job ultimately was build the bomb, take it to Miami and blow up Skyfleet with it (which I think *was* probably the original plan, the film makes it seem like Miami friend is only introduced because Mollaka is taken out). We could have had Bond foil that plot when he takes Mollaka out, and still have that scene with Le Chiffre talking to his investment banker ("I haven't yet calculated how much you've lost..." etc).

    @NickTwentyTwo, basically, have it so that once Bond kills the initial bomb maker, Le Chiffre is unable to line up another person to do the job and them the prototype survives? That's an interesting idea. Then we still get to keep that sick opening sequence. B-)

    I guess part of the reason for including Carlos after the fact is to show that whoever Le Chiffre is working with is very resilient and will always try to find a way to get what they want, which puts Bond in a dangerous position. He's working against a force that won't stop so easily. Some of this plotting could be viewed as padding, given how long CR itself is already and the fact that the novel starts with Bond already at the casino, but I love all the set up, the moments of escalating rivalry with Bond and Dimitrios, and of course the lovely Solange.

    Exactly my thoughts.

    But I agree with your second paragraph as well (and thank you for naming Miami Friend, I forgot what it was). It's obviously in there for good reason. Maybe I'll make a fan-supercut of CR, if I ever learn how to edit film...

    Also, I would have preferred if Le Chiffre, instead of saying:

    "Your friend Mathis is actually my friend Mathis", said something like:

    "One of your good friends is actually one of my good friends". To Bond (and the audience), this still would have confirmed the Mathis suspicions, but then have been narratively correct when it turns out to be Vesper.

    Of course, the line as-is could be an attempt to mislead Bond, but I don't feel Le Chiffre would feel the need to do that, as he's about to get the password and kill him.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Honestly, the book made it simpler that Le Chiffre put himself in the position of needing to recoup, without Bond foiling a plan prior to the casino.

    You could actually just cut out the entire first 50 minutes of the movie and start with Bond being debriefed by M on who Le Chiffre is and what he’s trying to do. You will not miss anything because that’s essentially the real beginning of the movie. That basically brings the film down to a nice and brisk 90 minute running time. I’d actually prefer a less bloated adaptation of the novel.

    Maybe you can keep the pre-title sequence, have it still serve as the introduction of the new 007 prior to his debriefing.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2022 Posts: 7,547
    Yeah, just tell Bond Le Chiffre overspent on hookers and blow. Doesn't need to be complicated. ;)

    But as I'm thinking about it, even going with my plan, we do lose a lot of good scenes (all the ellipsis stuff, the meeting between Dimitrios and Le Chiffre), so, fair play that it's all in there. Maybe they could have just cut some of it down (did we really need Branson, BodyWorks, SunglassHut, as well as all the runway stuff?).
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited September 2022 Posts: 8,216
    The issue there is it reduces the amount of time devoted to Bond himself and the kind of person he is at that point in his career - and with it being an origin story, that's hard to excise. And the additional runtime, along with it being a big blockbuster, means we need a big action sequence in there to break that up.

    Do we learn enough about Bond when he gets to Montenegro for it to be justified? He still displays some recklessness but he is perhaps too far up the learning curve to really have it be as impactful.

    The only way to make it a closer adaptation of the novel would be to lose the origin story element. He's already a fully formed Bond by the time he arrives at the casino, with the PTS having been set a long time before the main events of the film.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 2022 Posts: 6,296
    I love the airport sequence and the Bodyworks sequence before it. Also, the villain blowing himself up is a homage to the two Bulgarians in the novel.

    I think @CraigMooreOHMSS is right in that the film needs an action sequence there, also to justify the long card game (without much action) that is to come. For better or worse, the consequence of the Moore/Dalton/Brosnan years is that the audience expects a lot of action.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited September 2022 Posts: 8,183
    The issue there is it reduces the amount of time devoted to Bond himself and the kind of person he is at that point in his career - and with it being an origin story, that's hard to excise. And the additional runtime, along with it being a big blockbuster, means we need a big action sequence in there to break that up.

    Do we learn enough about Bond when he gets to Montenegro for it to be justified? He still displays some recklessness but he is perhaps too far up the learning curve to really have it be as impactful.

    The only way to make it a closer adaptation of the novel would be to lose the origin story element. He's already a fully formed Bond by the time he arrives at the casino, with the PTS having been set a long time before the main events of the film.

    That’s the thing, I would excise the Bond Begins aspect of the film entirely, so losing all of the stuff that shows him being reckless is inconsequential for me. It wasn’t needed in the book, so I don’t really need it in the film.

    A return to the more taut, fat free, running time of the first three Connery films is ideal to me. So long as it doesn’t feel like it’s on a rush like QOS was (which I think would have benefited from another ten minutes just to let the film breathe and give some atmosphere).
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2022 Posts: 3,789
    I didn't even cared about the origin story element too, for me, it kinda messed up the continuity of Bond being just a one or same man, maybe I would understand the whole origin story had it been a prequel to the classic films (starting from DN), but since SP and NTTD came out and turned that way, it kinda misses that.

    I know that the Craig era was isolated and separate compared to the first 20 Bond films, but if one looks at the whole Storyline or narrative of James Bond, you'll have no idea where to put Craig's Bond just to prove that they're all playing the same character.

    So yes, the origin storyline didn't make sense at all to me, better to be left off.

    Why not just have Bond as an already experienced agent?

    CR is a great movie, but that Origin Story or 'Bond Begins' baffles me a bit because the classic films were telling you that the Bonds of Connery, Lazenby, Moore Dalton and Brosnan was just the same, they're all one man (they're playing the same guy) by having some references to the past films, then Craig suddenly arrived with his 'Bond Begins' and starts telling his own story with start and finish (killing him off), that you have no idea
    if this is still the same guy.

    I think the origin story was just there because of the Batman Begins.

    I wished they followed the novel more by not including him being a rookie.

    Edit: I also couldn't blame those people who believes in Codename Theory.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I don’t mind Craig’s films effectively being a reboot and not part of the continuity of the first 20 films. I’m okay with cutting ties and having CR be a fresh start. I just didn’t think it was specifically necessary to have Bond being a novice and having to learn about things like learning not to trust anyone (any agent in their 30s should already have learned that). The original idea was that Bond would be a man in his 20s, as a 22 year old Henry Cavill was among the finalists. If they stuck in that direction, I think the origin story would be justified since we’re seeing a literal young Bond. But not with a 37 year old Daniel Craig.

    I’d keep the pre-titles with his first two kills since that’s actually something we learn in the novel, and I think that works as a standalone sequence. It’s a good way to set the tone for film. After the titles, you could cut straight to Bond being debriefed about Le Chiffre and the mission.
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