Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited January 2023 Posts: 4,703
    I sometimes think that if EON hadn't got the rights back to Blofeld and Spectre, the head of Quantum would have been a classic villain who wasn't Blofeld. Mr. Big, perhaps? Sam Mendes and Daniel Craig both said that LALD was a early intro to Bond.

    As for Bond's future, I think a possible ally that EON could bring back is Tiger Tanaka. He's been reused successfully in 3 literary stories: The Man With The Red Tattoo, Felix Leiter and Double Or Nothing. It's a good chance that EON would bring him back.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    What frustrates me as well is how they butchered the Octopussy short story. I don't mind any writer playing around with it but what they did with Hannes Oberhauser was just incredibly weak and I felt they could've done something better with it. Why couldn't Waltz have just been a Dexter Smythe type character?

    Because EON apparently thought Blofeld and Spectre would bring more people to the theater. Not too mention Christoph Waltz himself.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 4,310
    The thing about adapting the OP short story I feel is that it can be a bit thankless. The power of that short story comes from the fact that we are essentially given the point of view of Smythe, and in a weird way feel some sympathy for him when he dies. It’s a sad little tale with much tragedy (Bond’s included) and a rather ironic ending.

    It somewhat loses its power when bits of it are cherry picked and relegated to dialogue relayed exposition. As others have said on a very basic plot level if you were to cut that backstory then little, if any of SP changes.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited January 2023 Posts: 699
    007HallY wrote: »
    I mean, Blofeld is essentially responsible for Vesper’s death in a sense.

    The movie said the same basic thing but I don't buy it. Bond only gets assigned to the LeChiffre mission because he's "the best card player in the service." Unless Blofeld somehow manipulated Bond into taking up gambling, he couldn't possibly have been the author of Bond's pain. And what a woeful line.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 4,310
    slide_99 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I mean, Blofeld is essentially responsible for Vesper’s death in a sense.

    The movie said the same basic thing but I don't buy it. Bond only gets assigned to the LeChiffre mission because he's "the best card player in the service." Unless Blofeld somehow manipulated Bond into taking up gambling, he couldn't possibly have been the author of Bond's pain. And what a woeful line.

    It’s an example of why the personal connection between Bond and Blofeld makes things unclear. Strictly speaking Blofeld couldn’t have known Bond would get involved in the events of CR/QOS so I suppose the ‘author of all your pain’ line was never meant to be an actual revelation that Blofeld is some sort of puppet master manipulating things against Bond... it is, however, written to evoke the idea that fate brought them together and Blofeld is responsible for Bond’s misfortunes. Their personal connection heaped on top of that muddies the water in the sense that this Blofeld seems to simultaneously be an ambitious super criminal in it for the money/power, and a petty man jealous of Bond for reasons that are also quite unconvincing and a bit vague.

    Like I said, in some strange way Bond not knowing Blofeld prior actually opens up a lot of interesting dynamics between them. Bond of course is a man who has thwarted Blofeld’s plans on more than one occasion, and Blofeld is the head of SPECTRE, the organisation that manipulated Vesper, leading to her suicide (and again, Bond’s chance at a normal, happy life). It’s a dynamic more similar to the novels, and if we’d had the ‘author of all your pain’ line with this context then it might have been clearer, more poignant, and certainly more in-keeping with ‘the past returning’ theme of the film.
  • Posts: 2,029
    delfloria wrote: »
    All the analysis here of the unfortunate inclusion of the Foster Bros reminds me of why I was not totally upset when Bond got killed in NTTD. When it happened, part of me realized this meant a hard reset for the next set of films. Craig was excellent as Bond but they really mucked up his universe.

    Despite my objections to Bond being killed, I too have reached that point. Put a bullet in it, bury it, and reboot it. And next time a villain is cast, cast the role with a larger than life, scene stealing, gregarious actor whose villainy is fun to watch.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    What might have been better , if they had to have the "brother angle", do it the other way round.

    Introduce Waltz as Blofeld and have the reveal be he was Franz Oberhauser, let that be the reveal. I still don't like it to be honest, but perhaps it's a bit more palatable
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited January 2023 Posts: 5,970
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    What might have been better , if they had to have the "brother angle", do it the other way round.

    Introduce Waltz as Blofeld and have the reveal be he was Franz Oberhauser, let that be the reveal. I still don't like it to be honest, but perhaps it's a bit more palatable
    The best route to simplify it would probably would have been to just make him Franz Oberhauser and that's it. He just ended up becoming a criminal and ended up joining SPECTRE. That way you get the same bare bones without the stupidity of a man building an entire criminal organisation because he didn't get any attention from his father. I feel the whole revenge thing should've been dropped all together be honest. In my eyes, even coincidence would feel less convoluted. As for the whole Blofeld thing, just leave it for now. Just an easter egg for the future would've been more interesting.

    If they'd done this Safin could have been Blofeld and No Time To Die might have avoided a weak main villain.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    MaxCasino wrote: »

    As for Bond's future, I think a possible ally that EON could bring back is Tiger Tanaka. He's been reused successfully in 3 literary stories: The Man With The Red Tattoo, Felix Leiter and Double Or Nothing. It's a good chance that EON would bring him back.

    I rather like that idea. I would say you could even replace Felix with him, but I guess ultimately it's likely that Bond will interface with the CIA at some point.
    007HallY wrote: »
    Like I said, in some strange way Bond not knowing Blofeld prior actually opens up a lot of interesting dynamics between them. Bond of course is a man who has thwarted Blofeld’s plans on more than one occasion, and Blofeld is the head of SPECTRE, the organisation that manipulated Vesper, leading to her suicide (and again, Bond’s chance at a normal, happy life). It’s a dynamic more similar to the novels, and if we’d had the ‘author of all your pain’ line with this context then it might have been clearer, more poignant, and certainly more in-keeping with ‘the past returning’ theme of the film.

    I like this idea, although in a way I could see it working that Bond recognises Blofeld as his childhood 'brother' but Blofeld has absolutely no recollection of him; Bond tracking him down through that - Blofeld having crossed this man's life twice without even knowing it, leading to his downfall.
    Or do the Moriarty thing with him: Bond has beaten so many of his schemes now that Blofeld comes after him personally.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    What might have been better , if they had to have the "brother angle", do it the other way round.

    Introduce Waltz as Blofeld and have the reveal be he was Franz Oberhauser, let that be the reveal. I still don't like it to be honest, but perhaps it's a bit more palatable
    The best route to simplify it would probably would have been to just make him Franz Oberhauser and that's it. He just ended up becoming a criminal and ended up joining SPECTRE. That way you get the same bare bones without the stupidity of a man building an entire criminal organisation because he didn't get any attention from his father.

    I wonder if it would have been possible if Oberhauser and Blofeld were separate baddies; Blofeld having found Oberhauser and used him to lure Bond in.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,233
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Have the writers ever commented on why they went with the Bond/Blofeld connection? I did not recall the Goldmember similarity, but then I only saw the film once and immediately forgot it. It seemed more of an odd "Luke, I am your father" moment for no apparent reason. Shock? Wow, I didn't see that coming! New wrinkle? If Blofeld somehow returns in future films, I hope the filmmakers will have the sense never to make that connection again.

    This is my speculation: They see Blofeld as being more than just another Bond villain and wanted to somehow emphasize that. With Fleming, Blofeld became Bond's arch nemesis by killing his wife. It was the moment that it went beyond just another mission, it became personal. I think the filmmakers wanted to tap into that personal aspect, but instead of giving Bond a wife that gets killed by Blofeld they decided to make them estranged brothers. Blofeld obviously couldn't be made blood related, so they used the Oberhauser connection to make him a foster brother.

    Keep in mind, Craig was seriously considering leaving after SP. If it were to be the last film with him, that's why they wanted to go with that angle especially if Blofeld was Craig's final Bond villain. He's the man who was not only behind the curtain from the beginning of CR, but extended further back to Bond's upbringing. I can see why the filmmakers would be temped and assume fans would like this new take on the character.

    Would it have worked if they had a better script at hand? I actually can't discount that. It's always about execution. There were things in Star Wars that I absolutely would have objected to just on the basis of an idea alone. I hated the idea of Ben Solo getting a redemption story because that just stunk of rehashing Anakin Skywalker's story. And yet, in spite of TROS being a dumpster fire of a film, I was actually sold on the conceit of Ben Solo's redemption just from Adam Driver's performance alone. He managed to sell me on something I thought I would have been a total hardliner about, and I was especially pissed that they ended up killing him and any potential stories there could have been mined of following a character trying to atone for something he never can. If those filmmakers could succeed at that, I would have liked to see an alternate universe where they actually were successful over the foster brother angle.

    However, SP did a terrible job with the idea because it ultimately amounted into nothing. The fact that you could easily snip it out and not change the plot really illustrated how pointless it was. By the time NTTD rolls around, the fact that they had a past as foster brothers seems completely irrelevant.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 699
    Retconning Mr. White as an alias for Blofeld would have worked better than what we got. We already saw him and Bond go head-to-head in two previous movies so there's no need to waste time on introducing another villain. Mr. White actually was directly responsible for Vesper's death and turning CraigBond into who he is, and he was certainly dangerous, elusive, and had a creepy air about him. He fulfilled every single qualification for being the primary villain of the Craig era, and is basically what Waltz's Blofeld only claims to be through clunky dialogue.

    But, something tells me the producers wanted Blofeld to be played by an Oscar winner like Bardem in the previous movie. After all, these are prestige movies now, with tons of Oscar-tier talent involved (but for some reason doesn't result in them making better movies). And of course they ironically repeated the same mistake in NTTD, sidelining an established villain for an entirely new villain whose origin requires tons of expositional dialogue to explain, with a grand scheme that was years in the making. I get the sense that the Bond producers are making the exact same movie over and over.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited January 2023 Posts: 5,970
    I sometimes think it would have been interesting if they'd got an actor like Oscar Isaac for the role and then you could have had an Ernst Stavro Blofeld who had more of his mother's Greek heritage?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,393
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it does makes sense if you follow the thinking through. They were adapting Fleming's Octopussy where Bond meets the killer of his childhood mentor Oberhauser, no Bond fan objects to that story, even though it's a personal mission. As with a lot adaptations from Fleming they decided to punch it up a bit and make the baddie of his story into the main villain of their film. And in the world of Bond, why shouldn't it be Blofeld? It's not like it's M or anyone else he already knew: this Blofeld is as unknown to the audience as Smythe is to Bond in the short story, so it's not really a "I am your mum!" soap opera-style reveal. And as he is the main villain of the film, he has to be reasonably close to Bond in age, which means, as Oberhauser's death happened some time ago, he would have been a teenager; which then naturally links them to growing up together or spending some time together as children; so then: foster brothers. It all makes sense, it all works as an adaptation.

    But they just never got the time to take a step back and see that 007 and Blofeld being brothers is basically a bit silly, and that the final version of the film didn't really get any mileage out of the concept anyway; it's a sort of pretend, fake dramatic reveal instead of one which actually means something. But I imagine you get caught up on these things and don't get much of a chance to look at the final version of your script as if it's the first time you're seeing it.

    This is astute. I just think that, if we were destined to have Bond and Oberhauser-Blofeld, that it all would have worked better if Bond just bumped into Oberhauser and then discovered his evil scheme and his identity as Blofeld.

    It's the notion that Blofeld planned all of this against Bond over several missions that is ludicrous. Couple that with the tired sibling rivalry lines they gave Blofeld and it's just too, too much.

    They had their proto-Blofeld in plain sight. Of course I'm speaking of White. (shakes head)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,233
    echo wrote: »
    It's the notion that Blofeld planned all of this against Bond over several missions that is ludicrous.

    Blofeld wasn’t planning against Bond throughout the movies.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited January 2023 Posts: 554
    mtm wrote: »
    I think it does makes sense if you follow the thinking through. They were adapting Fleming's Octopussy where Bond meets the killer of his childhood mentor Oberhauser, no Bond fan objects to that story, even though it's a personal mission. As with a lot adaptations from Fleming they decided to punch it up a bit and make the baddie of his story into the main villain of their film. And in the world of Bond, why shouldn't it be Blofeld? It's not like it's M or anyone else he already knew: this Blofeld is as unknown to the audience as Smythe is to Bond in the short story, so it's not really a "I am your mum!" soap opera-style reveal. And as he is the main villain of the film, he has to be reasonably close to Bond in age, which means, as Oberhauser's death happened some time ago, he would have been a teenager; which then naturally links them to growing up together or spending some time together as children; so then: foster brothers. It all makes sense, it all works as an adaptation.

    But they just never got the time to take a step back and see that 007 and Blofeld being brothers is basically a bit silly, and that the final version of the film didn't really get any mileage out of the concept anyway; it's a sort of pretend, fake dramatic reveal instead of one which actually means something. But I imagine you get caught up on these things and don't get much of a chance to look at the final version of your script as if it's the first time you're seeing it.
    I mostly agree, but I don't think it was really necessary to have Blofeld as a teenager when he killed Oberhauser. If you arbitrarily say that Bond was somewhere in the area of 12-16 (1980 - 1984) Waltz was born in 56 and could pretty easily be slightly older in universe.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2023 Posts: 16,624
    Well I guess they decided it would be more interesting for Oberhauser’s killer to know what he’d done to Bond rather than Bond to be completely unknown to him, which seems reasonable as you would get more interpersonal drama that way: they would have feelings and opinions on each other. So he needed to have been present when Bond was young.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 133
    Storywise, I hope they return to more standalone-movies.
    What I always liked about Bond movies; you could basically choose any movie and watch it with your friends, an explanation about prior events wasn't needed.
    In the Craig era, only CR and SF worked as standalone movies, and a lot of the connections in the other movies felt forced.
    However, I fear they will try to connect the next movies even more.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,233
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    Storywise, I hope they return to more standalone-movies.
    What I always liked about Bond movies; you could basically choose any movie and watch it with your friends, an explanation about prior events wasn't needed.
    In the Craig era, only CR and SF worked as standalone movies, and a lot of the connections in the other movies felt forced.
    However, I fear they will try to connect the next movies even more.

    Goes with the nature of how media is consumed these days. It made sense that the older films were standalone for their time because accessibility to films, particularly during the 60s to late 80s, was not good. If it was 1977 and you wanted to watch every Bond film made up to that point, that would be difficult, especially for titles like OHMSS. You’d have to wait and hope for a re-release somewhere.

    Cut to 2023, film and television has never been more accessible. That’s partly why so many films and TV is more serialized than it was in the 20th century because people can easily catch up by just streaming whatever they need to see at home. If Eon goes back to standalone films that would have to motivated by a desire to go that route. Right now, there’s no reason not to do serializations since that has become the norm.

    There can be a healthy middle ground. STAR TREK: STRANGE NEW WORLDS is refreshingly episodic, though it still has an undercurrent of continuity flowing.
  • TuxedoTuxedo Europe
    Posts: 262
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Retconning Mr. White as an alias for Blofeld would have worked better than what we got. We already saw him and Bond go head-to-head in two previous movies so there's no need to waste time on introducing another villain. Mr. White actually was directly responsible for Vesper's death and turning CraigBond into who he is, and he was certainly dangerous, elusive, and had a creepy air about him. He fulfilled every single qualification for being the primary villain of the Craig era, and is basically what Waltz's Blofeld only claims to be through clunky dialogue.

    But, something tells me the producers wanted Blofeld to be played by an Oscar winner like Bardem in the previous movie. After all, these are prestige movies now, with tons of Oscar-tier talent involved (but for some reason doesn't result in them making better movies). And of course they ironically repeated the same mistake in NTTD, sidelining an established villain for an entirely new villain whose origin requires tons of expositional dialogue to explain, with a grand scheme that was years in the making. I get the sense that the Bond producers are making the exact same movie over and over.

    Good points!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,233
    Revealing White as Blofeld would have been more idiotic than what what we ultimately got.
  • Posts: 2,029
    Bond working for the same organization and supported by mostly the same cast of characters is enough continuity for me. A multi film ar
    Kojak007 wrote: »
    Storywise, I hope they return to more standalone-movies.
    What I always liked about Bond movies; you could basically choose any movie and watch it with your friends, an explanation about prior events wasn't needed.
    In the Craig era, only CR and SF worked as standalone movies, and a lot of the connections in the other movies felt forced.
    However, I fear they will try to connect the next movies even more.

    Goes with the nature of how media is consumed these days. It made sense that the older films were standalone for their time because accessibility to films, particularly during the 60s to late 80s, was not good. If it was 1977 and you wanted to watch every Bond film made up to that point, that would be difficult, especially for titles like OHMSS. You’d have to wait and hope for a re-release somewhere.

    Cut to 2023, film and television has never been more accessible. That’s partly why so many films and TV is more serialized than it was in the 20th century because people can easily catch up by just streaming whatever they need to see at home. If Eon goes back to standalone films that would have to motivated by a desire to go that route. Right now, there’s no reason not to do serializations since that has become the norm.

    There can be a healthy middle ground. STAR TREK: STRANGE NEW WORLDS is refreshingly episodic, though it still has an undercurrent of continuity flowing.

    Bond working for the same organization and surrounded by a familiar network of support is continuity enough for me. No question streaming and access have changed the game, but Bond films are released every two to three years which drags out a story arc a very long time. CR was released 15 years before NTTD. Every Bond fan has an opinion as to whether the wait was worth it or not. The enjoyment of the early films was seeing where Bond went next. Hopefully the new series will figure out what Strange New Worlds did.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 2023 Posts: 16,624
    I don’t get the issue with linking the narrative. It’s not like people complain about the Star Wars films or even the Fleming books. We’re all fans, it’s not like we wouldn’t be able to remember what happened in the last one.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited January 2023 Posts: 2,641
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t get the issue with linking the narrative. It’s not like people complain about the Star Wars films or even the Fleming books. We’re all fans, it’s not like we wouldn’t be able to remember what happened in the last one.

    I really liked the linked narrative before Spectre, but since Spectre it's frustrated me a bit.

    It feels like the writers and producers are obsessed with giving every person a past and link to previous characters. Which makes it more unbelievable and ultimately Bond's world smaller and smaller.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    Yeah I'm not necessarily saying the previous one was handled perfectly, but the concept of having a through-line narrative in itself doesn't seem an intrinsically bad one to me.
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    It feels like the writers and producers are obsessed with giving every person a past and link to previous characters. Which makes it more unbelievable and ultimately Bond's world smaller and smaller.

    True, and a criticism you could probably level at Fleming as well.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    As always, it's not the concept that's the problem, it's the execution. Look at the MCU, their films used to work while being heavily connected and now they do less so.
    As mtm has insinuated for a while now, the novels are quite interlinked. They always have a main plot that largely works on its own, but the Bond of YOLT has clearly gone though everything in the previous books. And I would bet that is what P&W thought they were doing with SP and NTTD.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I'm not necessarily saying the previous one was handled perfectly, but the concept of having a through-line narrative in itself doesn't seem an intrinsically bad one to me.
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    It feels like the writers and producers are obsessed with giving every person a past and link to previous characters. Which makes it more unbelievable and ultimately Bond's world smaller and smaller.

    True, and a criticism you could probably level at Fleming as well.

    That's absolutely right mate
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,187
    I love Craig's Bond. But for me, CR & QoS are the ones I always find immensely satisfying. The other three have moments of brilliance in them, but I always find myself wanting more from them. For SF, I think it needed two more action scenes. For SP, Blofeld should have simply stayed a stranger to Bond as he always was and the finale should have been longer and better. For NTTD, well, everyone knows the rest.
  • As good an actor as Waltz is, I do wish Mr White had turned out to be Blofeld. But I still like Spectre.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited January 2023 Posts: 4,703
    As good an actor as Waltz is, I do wish Mr White had turned out to be Blofeld. But I still like Spectre.

    Me too. I don’t blame Waltz at all. I’m happy that he did the part. I blame the writing. And the art house-ness that the producers and directors have been aiming for lately. And somewhat trying to be like the MCU. It works for as they make multiple stories and characters at once with decades of material. EON got the rights to Blofeld and Spectre not even two years before Spectre. Should have maybe waited.

    As for Bond’s future, I’m not opposed to a long story arc or two. Just write, direct and edit the movies to feel like they are in the same world. Marvel actually does this well.
  • In the film titled When Eight Bells Toll. Anthony Hopkins plays a young Royal Naval Officer assigned to the Secret Service. His particular set of skills, combat arms, diving, etc would suggest his service with a naval combat unit, and also the need for him being on loan to the secret service to help with a problem. If Bond is to be revived then perhaps a time prior to officially joining MI6 and earning a double 0 status with them would be a starting point. Obviously a more modern version with more action would be needed. Hopkins did the role quite well at the time, although too talented as an artist to make a career of being Bond.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    Eight Bells Toll? That's the novel by Alistair McLean, right?
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