The case for and against... Martin Campbell

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Comments

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,208
    peter wrote: »
    As far as character or judging actors…. I have my doubts.

    Thank goodness there are people in production who actually do that as full-time job, then!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    As far as character or judging actors…. I have my doubts.

    Thank goodness there are people in production who actually do that as full-time job, then!

    Relax, Tonto! Relax! 😂
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,281
    This perhaps stems from being a fan of his take on Superman, but I don’t see how Henry Cavill is as bad as some of you make him out to be. He’s continuing to receive work in Hollywood, and by all accounts sounds like a genuine guy, so complaints that he “lacks charisma” or “lacks talent” don’t really ring true to me. Is he the strongest actor? No, but he isn’t some talentless hack either. I find him much better than some of the other actors/actresses working today.

    Plenty of bad actors continue to find work in Hollywood. It's about the look.

    And yes, Cavill is a bad actor.
  • Posts: 2,264
    echo wrote: »
    This perhaps stems from being a fan of his take on Superman, but I don’t see how Henry Cavill is as bad as some of you make him out to be. He’s continuing to receive work in Hollywood, and by all accounts sounds like a genuine guy, so complaints that he “lacks charisma” or “lacks talent” don’t really ring true to me. Is he the strongest actor? No, but he isn’t some talentless hack either. I find him much better than some of the other actors/actresses working today.

    Plenty of bad actors continue to find work in Hollywood. It's about the look.

    True. The looks are often what they have going for them at times.

    echo wrote: »
    And yes, Cavill is a bad actor.

    That’s not an objective fact; that’s more your opinion.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,281
    I cannot take him seriously as Superman. Compare him to the late, great Christopher Reeve, who made me believe that Superman and Clark Kent were different people, even though both are tall and hunky. RIP Christopher Reeve.

    Cavill is the Lazenby of the Supermans.
  • Posts: 1,324
    I think Cavill was charismatic in The Man From UNCLE but maybe he needs Guy Ritchie by his side.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 22 Posts: 8,208
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    As far as character or judging actors…. I have my doubts.

    Thank goodness there are people in production who actually do that as full-time job, then!

    Relax, Tonto! Relax! 😂

    :-? You're having an odd one today, @peter!
  • edited June 22 Posts: 2,264
    echo wrote: »
    I cannot take him seriously as Superman. Compare him to the late, great Christopher Reeve, who made me believe that Superman and Clark Kent were different people, even though both are tall and hunky. RIP Christopher Reeve.

    Cavill is the Lazenby of the Supermans.


    This is why Superman has never excelled on the big screen the way Bond, Batman, and other heroes have; because people only want Christopher Reeves 2.0. Completely forgetting the last time we got that, the film didn’t do as well at the Box Office. I hate to say it too, but aside from that first film; the Reeve’s Superman series has aged poorly in its depictions of certain characters, and it’s film making techniques. It’s only the generation that grew up with those films that hold them up in such high regard, and again that’s mainly due to the first movie. But for the rest of us, who grew up watching other versions, the Reeve’s take is a bit bland when compared to the DCAU (STAS and JLU) take. Say what you will about Cavill’s Superman, but he helped revive the character’s popularity before getting unfairly axed from the role. The announcement of him coming back for Black Adam only to get fired by James Gunn months later upset a lot of people, and it was only a small subset of individuals who were delighted by that news.

    Also comparing Cavill to Lazenby is a poor comparison considering Cavill has the business acumen to stick around and make more films; and actually has a sizable following of fans who adore his take on Superman.
  • Posts: 1,858
    Cavill was lost in Argyle and though he his not a great actor and not in Craig's league, I think Campbell may have seen potential in him, as seen later in "The Man from U.N.C.L.E.". Cavill makes a good Napoleon Solo but I would not cast him as Bond if one was looking for Craig style gravitas. Also, Campbell eventually saw the wisdom in choosing Craig and embraced it. Other directors might have walked under the same circumstances. Strange, I don't consider Glenn and Campbell even remotely in the same league.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @delfloria i didn’t say they were in the same league. Campbell is far more talented, but I compared them since they’re both journeymen types (although Glenn’s journey primarily was rising through the ranks at EoN), nuts and bolts, and excel in action (whereas both aren’t known to be actor-directors).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,281
    echo wrote: »
    I cannot take him seriously as Superman. Compare him to the late, great Christopher Reeve, who made me believe that Superman and Clark Kent were different people, even though both are tall and hunky. RIP Christopher Reeve.

    Cavill is the Lazenby of the Supermans.


    This is why Superman has never excelled on the big screen the way Bond, Batman, and other heroes have; because people only want Christopher Reeves 2.0. Completely forgetting the last time we got that, the film didn’t do as well at the Box Office. I hate to say it too, but aside from that first film; the Reeve’s Superman series has aged poorly in its depictions of certain characters, and it’s film making techniques. It’s only the generation that grew up with those films that hold them up in such high regard, and again that’s mainly due to the first movie. But for the rest of us, who grew up watching other versions, the Reeve’s take is a bit bland when compared to the DCAU (STAS and JLU) take. Say what you will about Cavill’s Superman, but he helped revive the character’s popularity before getting unfairly axed from the role. The announcement of him coming back for Black Adam only to get fired by James Gunn months later upset a lot of people, and it was only a small subset of individuals who were delighted by that news.

    Also comparing Cavill to Lazenby is a poor comparison considering Cavill has the business acumen to stick around and make more films; and actually has a sizable following of fans who adore his take on Superman.

    He's the Lazenby in that, while handsome, he has no discernible acting ability.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,610
    echo wrote: »
    I cannot take him seriously as Superman. Compare him to the late, great Christopher Reeve, who made me believe that Superman and Clark Kent were different people, even though both are tall and hunky. RIP Christopher Reeve.

    Cavill is the Lazenby of the Supermans.


    This is why Superman has never excelled on the big screen the way Bond, Batman, and other heroes have; because people only want Christopher Reeves 2.0. Completely forgetting the last time we got that, the film didn’t do as well at the Box Office. I hate to say it too, but aside from that first film; the Reeve’s Superman series has aged poorly in its depictions of certain characters, and it’s film making techniques. It’s only the generation that grew up with those films that hold them up in such high regard, and again that’s mainly due to the first movie. But for the rest of us, who grew up watching other versions, the Reeve’s take is a bit bland when compared to the DCAU (STAS and JLU) take. Say what you will about Cavill’s Superman, but he helped revive the character’s popularity before getting unfairly axed from the role. The announcement of him coming back for Black Adam only to get fired by James Gunn months later upset a lot of people, and it was only a small subset of individuals who were delighted by that news.

    Also comparing Cavill to Lazenby is a poor comparison considering Cavill has the business acumen to stick around and make more films; and actually has a sizable following of fans who adore his take on Superman.

    This is true about Superman. Richard Donner's firing is still felt. Reusing the same villains hasn't helped Superman either. Zack Snyder isn't the best actor's director either. I always felt that he was too polarizing for Superman, let alone heading a whole cinematic universe. Sadly, he (and to a degree WB) proved me right. Peter Hunt was a decent actor's director, even for GL. As for Argylle, it wasn't Cavill who put me off. It was Samuel L Jackson, doing the same stuff he always does. So as for Campbell and Cavill I could go either way. Age for either isn't a factor.
  • Posts: 1,858
    peter wrote: »
    @delfloria i didn’t say they were in the same league. Campbell is far more talented, but I compared them since they’re both journeymen types (although Glenn’s journey primarily was rising through the ranks at EoN), nuts and bolts, and excel in action (whereas both aren’t known to be actor-directors).

    Point taken. Agreed, they are thought of as journeymen directors.
  • edited June 22 Posts: 4,111
    To be fair to Campbell, I genuinely think Brosnan's performance in GE is his best as Bond To clarify, Brosnan is, for me, a very charismatic actor with a lot of star quality, but he's not the most consistent actor in the world. Give him material he can't work with (ie. TWINE) and he's capable of some very awkward acting. Not to say Campbell micromanaged Brosnan into giving this performance (no director can actually make an actor give a good performance they're not capable of) but he must have done something right in the way he worked with him. Even Hunt couldn't get Lazenby to give a consistent performance. Heck, even Mendes couldn't quite get the Oscar winning Christoph Waltz to create a truly great Blofeld, and I'd call Mendes a director very adept at working with actors just going from what I've heard/seen from him.

    I think it points to a very fundamental idea even with actor's directors, and especially with Bond directors - they need to cast the right actors and be able to get the best out of them. Campbell had some fantastic actors in both his films (Craig, Mickelson, Green, Dench, Bean, and even Cumming) who all inhabited their parts and likely made the filming process easier/more fruitful. And I think he got the best out of them.

    It kinda makes sense. I once worked as a camera assistant for a director who told me he preferred to direct actors as little as possible beyond basic blocking on-set (he joked he hadn't actually directed an actor since he was at film school). His logic was pick the right actor for the part/one he could work with, discuss the script with them before filming (and of course jump in if absolutely needed during filming, but this rarely happened apparently), but ultimately the performance was theirs.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,197
    While I've grown to like QoS quite a bit, I absolutely think it would have been a better film had Campbell directed.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 22 Posts: 9,509
    My point wasn’t that Campbell isn’t a talented director, but that he was willing to overlook the admitted talents of one actor, to go with an actor who was weaker, but looked the part.

    After seeing Argyle, and how absolutely brutal Cavill was reminded me of this, and I voiced my argument against Campbell coming back and/or I wouldn’t want him having anything to do with the audition process and choosing the next actor.

    Saying that, there’s quite a wide chasm between the direction and filmmaking of CR and SF (where we can simply compare and contrast a nuts n bolts guy vs a filmmaker who works with the actors (outside of just the blocking)).
  • Posts: 1,324
    I don't know. Both Dalt
    talos7 wrote: »
    While I've grown to like QoS quite a bit, I absolutely think it would have been a better film had Campbell directed.

    It's not that hard.
  • edited June 22 Posts: 4,111
    I don't know. Both Dalt
    talos7 wrote: »
    While I've grown to like QoS quite a bit, I absolutely think it would have been a better film had Campbell directed.

    It's not that hard.

    I think Forster did his best (and actually did some very good work on that film), but he was out of his depth given the constraints and the scale of the film he was working on. I'm not necessarily sure if Campbell would have given us an immediately warmly received follow up to CR, but it would have certainly been different in a few key ways. Perhaps the terrible editing/camerawork wouldn't have been an issue.
  • edited June 22 Posts: 1,324
    Any director would have been better. The issue is the script. I can't imagine Campbell doing rewrites.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Any director would have been better. The issue is the script. I can't imagine Campbell doing rewrites.

    The issue was the editing. It failed as a visual presentation and was a mess.

    What was wrong with the script for QoS @DEKE_RIVERS ?
  • Posts: 1,324
    peter wrote: »
    Any director would have been better. The issue is the script. I can't imagine Campbell doing rewrites.

    The issue was the editing. It failed as a visual presentation and was a mess.

    What was wrong with the script for QoS @DEKE_RIVERS ?

    They didnt have writers, that's the problem.
  • Posts: 4,111
    peter wrote: »
    Any director would have been better. The issue is the script. I can't imagine Campbell doing rewrites.

    The issue was the editing. It failed as a visual presentation and was a mess.

    What was wrong with the script for QoS @DEKE_RIVERS ?

    They didnt have writers, that's the problem.

    I actually think the script of QOS is pretty decent as it is. Maybe not the best Bond script of all time, but it's got some really great moments. The dialogue is much better than CR's at any rate. It's really not the worst Bond script (or at least what it turned out to be).

    I don't think the script was the fundamental problem at any rate, even if it could have been ironed out. Actually it's one way in which I'm glad Forster was involved. The biggest issues lie in how the film was shot/edited together in my opinion. Then there's that more subtle lack of Bondian flair/imagination.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    Any director would have been better. The issue is the script. I can't imagine Campbell doing rewrites.

    The issue was the editing. It failed as a visual presentation and was a mess.

    What was wrong with the script for QoS @DEKE_RIVERS ?

    They didnt have writers, that's the problem.

    No, they had writers. And then there was a strike.

    But you fail to answer the question to your own statement: the script was the issue, you said. What was the issue with the script. I mean, @DEKE_RIVERS , there was a script, it was written, by writers, so what was the issue with the script? Or don’t you know?
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited June 23 Posts: 691
    Brosnan and Craig give similar performances in their debut Bonds- charismatic with a tinge of iciness- and I'd say that Campbell is to thank for that since he was the only common factor between the two films. Brosnan's and Craig's debut performances are very focused, something that was lost a bit in the follow-ups. Brosnan became a bit too foppish in the sequels while Craig became too stoic from QOS through SP before going completely out of character in NTTD.

    If Campbell wanted Cavill back in 2006 it meant that he thought he could mold his personality to fit Bond's, just as he successfully did with Brosnan and Craig, two completely different actors with completely different looks. Campbell understands Bond in a way that certain directors *cough*Mendes*cough* didn't.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 23 Posts: 9,509
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Brosnan and Craig give similar performances in their debut Bonds- charismatic with a tinge of iciness- and I'd say that Campbell is to thank for that since he was the only common factor between the two films. Brosnan's and Craig's debut performances are very focused, something that was lost a bit in the follow-ups. Brosnan became a bit too foppish in the sequels while Craig became too stoic from QOS through SP before going completely out of character in NTTD.

    If Campbell wanted Cavill back in 2006 it meant that he thought he could mold his personality to fit Bond's, just as he successfully did with Brosnan and Craig, two completely different actors with completely different looks. Campbell understands Bond in a way that certain directors *cough*Mendes*cough* didn't.

    So you finally watched NTTD @slide_99 ?

    And @DEKE_RIVERS , I’d really love to know what was wrong with QoS the script? Considering you’ve already said in the past that scripts aren’t important and aren’t made to be read, what was the issue with the script with QoS? And please don’t repeat they had no writers, as clearly, on the credits, there are writers.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,208
    I'm sorry I described anything you ever wrote as reductive, @peter - I have now been reminded of its true form!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I'm sorry I described anything you ever wrote as reductive, @peter - I have now been reminded of its true form!

    I’m sorry @CraigMooreOHMSS , I’m obviously very slow, I didn’t know you described me as being reductive. Why would you have?
  • edited June 23 Posts: 4,111
    Not sure if I'd ever describe Brosnan's Bond as foppish despite my issues with him... I'd say Craig's Bond in QOS was actually much more at ease than in CR in many ways, and his performances in SF and SP had so much to them (I'm not even sure if he's all that stoic a Bond in the grand scheme of things honestly). There's a case to be made that he looks his most confident/relaxed in SP. So yeah, not sure I can really see any of that myself... Mendes I'd argue understood Bond on a level close to Campbell in my honest opinion. Arguably more so in many ways (I certainly think he understands Fleming a bit more going from SF - Campbell seems to parrot the wrong assumption that Fleming's Bond had no sense of humour and the film version does, which I really don't agree with).

    Anyway, it's like I said, the director doesn't control the actor's performance fundamentally.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,208
    peter wrote: »
    I'm sorry I described anything you ever wrote as reductive, @peter - I have now been reminded of its true form!

    I’m sorry @CraigMooreOHMSS , I’m obviously very slow, I didn’t know you described me as being reductive. Why would you have?

    Previous page. You even responded! :))
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    I'm sorry I described anything you ever wrote as reductive, @peter - I have now been reminded of its true form!

    I’m sorry @CraigMooreOHMSS , I’m obviously very slow, I didn’t know you described me as being reductive. Why would you have?

    Previous page. You even responded! :))

    I’m still not understanding the joke; I’m assuming I said something more that make you feel this way?

    Whatd I say that was reductive in your eyes? I’m obviously as slow as slow can be on this, 🤷‍♂️. Please, bring me up to speed.
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