Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m not even convinced the next Bond actor has even been born yet! Call me cynical but it’s gonna be a while yet before any sort of announcement is likely to be made. Just saw Fall Guy last night. I was wrong. I cannot picture Aaron Taylor Johnson as Bond. Surely that was pure tabloid gossip.

    Yeah, he completely throws away a role which could have stolen that film. Even imagining Craig in it, it’s the opportunity for the sort of turn he did in Logan Lucky: not in it for long but makes a big comic impression. ATJ just isn’t really in the same league.

    Agreed. I don't know what it is about this guy, but for such a handsome man, great physique, he just isn't memorable.

    I'd say what he did in the first Kick Ass film is better than anything he's done since, especially since he's "sculpted" his image.

    It seems the more handsome he's become, the less presence he has, and, on screen, he's as exciting and explosively interesting as a wall that's painted in white.
  • Posts: 17,756
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m not even convinced the next Bond actor has even been born yet! Call me cynical but it’s gonna be a while yet before any sort of announcement is likely to be made. Just saw Fall Guy last night. I was wrong. I cannot picture Aaron Taylor Johnson as Bond. Surely that was pure tabloid gossip.

    Yeah, he completely throws away a role which could have stolen that film. Even imagining Craig in it, it’s the opportunity for the sort of turn he did in Logan Lucky: not in it for long but makes a big comic impression. ATJ just isn’t really in the same league.

    Agreed. I don't know what it is about this guy, but for such a handsome man, great physique, he just isn't memorable.

    I'd say what he did in the first Kick Ass film is better than anything he's done since, especially since he's "sculpted" his image.

    It seems the more handsome he's become, the less presence he has, and, on screen, he's as exciting and explosively interesting as a wall that's painted in white.

    Hey, don’t underestimate the colour white, @peter! When I painted my living room white a couple of years ago, I had to sift through eight different paint samples. Since then, I’ve never looked at white walls the same way!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m not even convinced the next Bond actor has even been born yet! Call me cynical but it’s gonna be a while yet before any sort of announcement is likely to be made. Just saw Fall Guy last night. I was wrong. I cannot picture Aaron Taylor Johnson as Bond. Surely that was pure tabloid gossip.

    Yeah, he completely throws away a role which could have stolen that film. Even imagining Craig in it, it’s the opportunity for the sort of turn he did in Logan Lucky: not in it for long but makes a big comic impression. ATJ just isn’t really in the same league.

    Agreed. I don't know what it is about this guy, but for such a handsome man, great physique, he just isn't memorable.

    I'd say what he did in the first Kick Ass film is better than anything he's done since, especially since he's "sculpted" his image.

    It seems the more handsome he's become, the less presence he has, and, on screen, he's as exciting and explosively interesting as a wall that's painted in white.

    Hey, don’t underestimate the colour white, @peter! When I painted my living room white a couple of years ago, I had to sift through eight different paint samples. Since then, I’ve never looked at white walls the same way!

    😂 I knew there was a danger for backlash from my statement, 😂!!

    I am sorry to all white painted walls, and all walls which will soon be painted white as well.

    😂 @Torgeirtrap You almost made me colour my white walls with a Jackson Pollock -style spray of coffee (I took a big sip of my morning coffee when I read your post!) 🤣
  • edited October 26 Posts: 4,161
    I agree about ATJ. It's a bit of a shame as I thought he had a lot going for him in Nowhere Boy and Kick Ass. I thought he was great in those films.

    Since then though he's had so many roles which should have been much more memorable. Godzilla, Avengers, Fall Guy etc. I think the first time his limitations clicked for me was watching Nocturnal Animals. It's such an unsettling character and for all intents and purposes should have been the stand out performance of the movie. He's not bad in it, but I noticed he was outshone by Michael Shannon and Jake Gyllenhall (who are to be fair to them pretty great actors, but I feel for that role you need someone who can stand up to heavy hitters like that).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @007HallY , if you haven’t already, try and get your hands on the Nocturnal script. The character ATJ played pops off the page, and yes, it’s a dynamic role which had the potential to be the highlight of the film.

    But ATJ took a troubled character and made it bland. As you said, he wasn’t “bad”, but he certainly missed an opportunity (and, as an actor, I don’t know how you could’ve dropped the ball on this role).
  • edited October 26 Posts: 4,161
    peter wrote: »
    @007HallY , if you haven’t already, try and get your hands on the Nocturnal script. The character ATJ played pops off the page, and yes, it’s a dynamic role which had the potential to be the highlight of the film.

    But ATJ took a troubled character and made it bland. As you said, he wasn’t “bad”, but he certainly missed an opportunity (and, as an actor, I don’t know how you could’ve dropped the ball on this role).

    Just looked it up and had a quick read of some of Ray's scenes (I'll definitely give it a proper read when I get the chance). He's a very nasty character, but very vivid. I'm imagining Matthew McConaughey when reading it (maybe a bit obvious and likely too old for that character. McConaughey has something more electric about him though. I can see him being very sinister in that role).

    But yeah, I feel with ATJ the performance is a bit too forced. It's just a touch too big to be realistic, and yet not quite dynamic enough to be truly sinister. It's not bad, just not very natural.
  • edited October 26 Posts: 17,756
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m not even convinced the next Bond actor has even been born yet! Call me cynical but it’s gonna be a while yet before any sort of announcement is likely to be made. Just saw Fall Guy last night. I was wrong. I cannot picture Aaron Taylor Johnson as Bond. Surely that was pure tabloid gossip.

    Yeah, he completely throws away a role which could have stolen that film. Even imagining Craig in it, it’s the opportunity for the sort of turn he did in Logan Lucky: not in it for long but makes a big comic impression. ATJ just isn’t really in the same league.

    Agreed. I don't know what it is about this guy, but for such a handsome man, great physique, he just isn't memorable.

    I'd say what he did in the first Kick Ass film is better than anything he's done since, especially since he's "sculpted" his image.

    It seems the more handsome he's become, the less presence he has, and, on screen, he's as exciting and explosively interesting as a wall that's painted in white.

    Hey, don’t underestimate the colour white, @peter! When I painted my living room white a couple of years ago, I had to sift through eight different paint samples. Since then, I’ve never looked at white walls the same way!

    😂 I knew there was a danger for backlash from my statement, 😂!!

    I am sorry to all white painted walls, and all walls which will soon be painted white as well.

    😂 @Torgeirtrap You almost made me colour my white walls with a Jackson Pollock -style spray of coffee (I took a big sip of my morning coffee when I read your post!) 🤣

    Hahaha! That is the biggest downside of white-painted walls as well – they are prone to marks and stains! 😂

    I'm sorry to Aaron Taylor Johnson, but I've probably given colours (including white!) more time over the past few years than the total runtime of most of his films. And honestly, I don’t mind one bit!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 26 Posts: 16,411
    That’s interesting, I did think Nocturnal was probably he most effective screen appearance, I didn’t really consider there was even mileage in that role he missed.
    I can see why he gets hired, he’s not actually bad as such. But he’s not exceptional.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Much has been discussed here about targeting an audience that is young, tends not to read, and may have little or no experience with a Bond film.

    I wouldn't use a TMWTGG scenario as it would seem to need a fair amount of established film backstory. Attempting to assassinate M seems better suited for a film later in the series.

    Do we begin in media res? This fresh Bond is introduced to us but has had OO status for sometime, as when we meet the first Bond in DN.

    Or do we get yet another origin story along the lines of CR?

    Will this new series be the Craig years we didn't see? Or do we put the Craig era out of mind? It never happened.

    If I have never seen a Bond film before, what do I need to know?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I like the idea of using Fleming’s TMWTGG.

    It’s an interesting book with Bond being forced to prove himself to M (and M in turn having to prove how useful his best agent still is) by assassinating an enemy of MI6. There’s a great cat and mouse element, the villain is presented as being far too skilled to take on, and Bond is quite conflicted about killing them anyway.

    There’s loads you could do those basic concepts - M pulling the strings and trying to kill two birds with one stone (sending Bond on a dangerous mission to prove his agent to MI6, and to kill someone problematic for MI6), Bond knowing the mission is dangerous and not enjoying doing M’s dirty work (more a thing of some of the short stories like FYEO but it’s there), Bond having to go undercover to get closer to the villain perhaps. Doesn’t need to be 100% faithful but I can imagine it being a nice basic story to start a new era.

    @007HallY didn't say anything about assassinating M, @CrabKey but using the general premise of the novel (please see the quote above).

    I've also mentioned a similar concept, also without the brainwashing and assassination attempt.

    This premise works, because, as 007hally pointed out, it's simple, a cat and mouse game, going undercover, investigating leads... Executing this simple type of story (elevating it with the sexiness and visual fun of a Bond picture), doesn't have to worry about appealing to any one generation. It would just be a simple story, done, presumably, entertainingly well. All ages would potentially go and see this type of Bond adventure.

    It wouldn't need any kind of extensive backstory, and would in fact skew closer to the DN intro that you cited.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,411
    I guess with a first film you could do all sorts of switches: introduce a new M and have Bond actually kill him, then reveal this M was a traitor, something like that.
  • Posts: 387
    Come to think of it, they use some of MWTGG in Skyfall. As MGW says, there aren't any flesh left on the bones of the novels situations they used!
  • edited October 26 Posts: 4,161
    peter wrote: »
    I like the idea of using Fleming’s TMWTGG.

    It’s an interesting book with Bond being forced to prove himself to M (and M in turn having to prove how useful his best agent still is) by assassinating an enemy of MI6. There’s a great cat and mouse element, the villain is presented as being far too skilled to take on, and Bond is quite conflicted about killing them anyway.

    There’s loads you could do those basic concepts - M pulling the strings and trying to kill two birds with one stone (sending Bond on a dangerous mission to prove his agent to MI6, and to kill someone problematic for MI6), Bond knowing the mission is dangerous and not enjoying doing M’s dirty work (more a thing of some of the short stories like FYEO but it’s there), Bond having to go undercover to get closer to the villain perhaps. Doesn’t need to be 100% faithful but I can imagine it being a nice basic story to start a new era.

    @007HallY didn't say anything about assassinating M, @CrabKey but using the general premise of the novel (please see the quote above).

    I've also mentioned a similar concept, also without the brainwashing and assassination attempt.

    This premise works, because, as 007hally pointed out, it's simple, a cat and mouse game, going undercover, investigating leads... Executing this simple type of story (elevating it with the sexiness and visual fun of a Bond picture), doesn't have to worry about appealing to any one generation. It would just be a simple story, done, presumably, entertainingly well. All ages would potentially go and see this type of Bond adventure.

    It wouldn't need any kind of extensive backstory, and would in fact skew closer to the DN intro that you cited.

    To be fair I think @CrabKey was talking broadly about the post I myself was talking broadly about (where adapting the opening of TMWTGG was used as an idea).

    I do agree though, there’s something that just works about Bond having to assassinate an assassin along with the cat and mouse element. It goes back to basics but you can do a lot with it and make it modern. I also like the personal element with M and coming up with a reason why he’s sending Bond to kill this particular person.

    I dunno, this is completely off the top of my head and very bare bones: maybe the film begins with a fellow 00 on an official mission to kill this assassin. He ultimately fails and is captured. The assassin then tortures (or perhaps brainwashes) the 00 into giving up vital information about the Service (something perhaps a bit dodgy - some sort of dark secret/act the 00 section has committed that would prove disastrous if made public) before killing him. The assassin threatens to release this information perhaps in exchange for money or protection/power etc, which in turn causes a panic for MI6. With his job at risk, M decides to send Bond on an ‘off the books’ mission (so unbeknownst to ministers/whoever M’s dealing with) to kill the assassin and cover up the potential scandal.

    Needs a bit of ironing out and establishing specifics, but it’s a riff on TMWTGG. Dependent on the secret it could create some nice conflict for Bond (again, he might be annoyed about doing M’s dirty work despite his loyalty to him). There's potential for the villain to be particularly nasty and sadistic. Maybe it could be a DN type thing where by the end it’s revealed the villain has a much bigger/destructive plan. It doesn’t reinvent the wheel, and it’s not a million miles away from other Bond movies (and certainly there’s a bit of the Craig era in there), but it’s the sort of foundation that can be used to create a fresh Bond movie, and with some Bondian flair/ridiculousness it could lead to something I guess.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,411
    It's kind of hard not to come back to why CR was so good: it established why it was a bit of a risk for M to send Bond on the Casino Royale mission- it kind of feels like there needs to be a bit of a gamble on M's side to send Bond in particular on this special mission; he's the hero of the piece so it feels like there should be a reason why he's the double 0 who is picked.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Thanks, @007HallY. Regarding my comment, spot on.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    peter wrote: »
    I like the idea of using Fleming’s TMWTGG.

    It’s an interesting book with Bond being forced to prove himself to M (and M in turn having to prove how useful his best agent still is) by assassinating an enemy of MI6. There’s a great cat and mouse element, the villain is presented as being far too skilled to take on, and Bond is quite conflicted about killing them anyway.

    There’s loads you could do those basic concepts - M pulling the strings and trying to kill two birds with one stone (sending Bond on a dangerous mission to prove his agent to MI6, and to kill someone problematic for MI6), Bond knowing the mission is dangerous and not enjoying doing M’s dirty work (more a thing of some of the short stories like FYEO but it’s there), Bond having to go undercover to get closer to the villain perhaps. Doesn’t need to be 100% faithful but I can imagine it being a nice basic story to start a new era.

    @007HallY didn't say anything about assassinating M, @CrabKey but using the general premise of the novel (please see the quote above).

    I've also mentioned a similar concept, also without the brainwashing and assassination attempt.

    This premise works, because, as 007hally pointed out, it's simple, a cat and mouse game, going undercover, investigating leads... Executing this simple type of story (elevating it with the sexiness and visual fun of a Bond picture), doesn't have to worry about appealing to any one generation. It would just be a simple story, done, presumably, entertainingly well. All ages would potentially go and see this type of Bond adventure.

    It wouldn't need any kind of extensive backstory, and would in fact skew closer to the DN intro that you cited.

    This reimagining makes sense to me. Brainwashing is such a '50s trope that by now it seems hoary. And you can't really have a new Bond trying to kill M before their relationship is established.

    I think we will get a young Bond, and he could be sent on a dangerous mission because he screwed up previously. Bond does not need to be perfect nor does his relationship with M need to be perfect--there's no story in that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,411
    I guess that is CR though, although arguably you can tell the same story in a different way.
  • Posts: 387
    I still think they need to follow up (sightly) on NTTD and Bond being dead, just like TMWTGG novel did. So a new Bond going back to MI6 with a new face claiming to be the original might be a good start. Or not. Now you can imagine how hard it is to figure out the right story to tell for the team.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 27 Posts: 6,304
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess that is CR though, although arguably you can tell the same story in a different way.

    Well, in CR he uses his judgment to kill the bomber and M doesn't like his decision. He doesn't actually make a mistake--although I guess shooting up the embassy is a mistake. I was thinking a more concrete and impactful mistake.

    Yes, I wasn't thinking a reboot exactly but a PTS with a mission gone wrong at Bond's hand, so he has something to prove to M and himself. "Bond made a mistake?" That could bring in Tanner, even Molony if they wanted. Then it could lead into a TMWTGG adaptation, of sorts.

    The longer the hiatus, the more likely we'll get a full reboot a la CR, I think.
  • edited October 27 Posts: 4,161
    I think it's best to start afresh. The goal with a new Bond anyway is to introduce them in a way which makes the audience forget about the previous actor. Referencing NTTD would be a much more elaborate version of how they introduced Lazenby in OHMSS (ie. the DN esque build up with the hands/cigarette, the subtle references to 'the other fella' etc.) I personally think Lazenby's introduction as Bond is the most disastrous of the series incidentally (not to say it's a bad PTS at all, just very miscalculated), and it's those references to Connery which effectively meant his Bond didn't have his own identity. Lazenby was 'the other fella' while the other guy - Connery - was James Bond. You can't have that with a new Bond. Craig's Bond has to be left in the past.

    That and I think the brainwashing idea is better suited later in an actor's tenure. It's a shocking twist but only one which works if we know that Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,411
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess that is CR though, although arguably you can tell the same story in a different way.

    Well, in CR he uses his judgment to kill the bomber and M doesn't like his decision. He doesn't actually make a mistake--although I guess shooting up the embassy is a mistake. I was thinking a more concrete and impactful mistake.

    Which is pretty clever of the writers of CR: Bond is in M’s bad books but he doesn’t actually muck up as such: he completes the mission, just in an unsatisfactory way. So it doesn’t undermine Bond’s status to the audience as a super agent who always wins, and yet we see he’s a little more fallible than before. It’s quite deft.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 27 Posts: 6,304
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess that is CR though, although arguably you can tell the same story in a different way.

    Well, in CR he uses his judgment to kill the bomber and M doesn't like his decision. He doesn't actually make a mistake--although I guess shooting up the embassy is a mistake. I was thinking a more concrete and impactful mistake.

    Which is pretty clever of the writers of CR: Bond is in M’s bad books but he doesn’t actually muck up as such: he completes the mission, just in an unsatisfactory way. So it doesn’t undermine Bond’s status to the audience as a super agent who always wins, and yet we see he’s a little more fallible than before. It’s quite deft.

    I do think it's clever but I worry about Bond turning into too much of a "Mary Sue" trope, always doing the right thing, never disagreeing with M, etc. It's Moneypenny who screws up everything in SF, arguably M, not Bond, and in a weird way, Bond always making the perfect decision takes away his agency. Sometimes an agent, even one with a licence to kill, is going to make the wrong move.

    I don't think that a brainwashing plot is a good way for the cinematic Bond to go, maybe ever. IMHO, it's melodramatic and dated and a bit lazy for a spy film. Just because Fleming wrote it doesn't mean that it's the best choice now.

    Fleming had Oddjob eating cats and we didn't need to see that!

    I see why they did that with Lazenby at the time, even if it seems miscalculated now, at least "the other fellow" line...they had to reassure the 1969 audience that this was still Bond.

    I do wish that they had stayed a little more with the gritty(ish) realism and lean cast of CR and QoS. They swung too far in the other direction with the ever-expanding supporting cast in SF and beyond. I didn't need Blofeld to be quite-so-'60s derivative in SP; they missed an opportunity to reinvent him a bit more realistically, and maybe still keep the cat. (Not sure why I keep bringing up cats.)

    I blame Mendes.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Why not completely ignore NTTD and move on? What would the writers be referencing? And why? As an in-joke? Melancholy? An homage to Craig? Unless it's to suggest these are the Craig adventures we didn't see before Bond met Madeleine, what point is served?

    Killing Bond was more than fulfilling Craig's wish to ensure his tenure would be over. It signaled that Bond strand was over. Clean slate. New direction.

    Perhaps they'll anchor the next series with some of the Craig regulars, which won't make a bit of sense, but it wouldn't be the first time that has happened. That way they can create the illusion of some form of continuity between films rather than the story itself.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    They can go full meta with Bond 26 and have Bond trying to stop a couple of Hollywood producers from making movies about his missions.

  • edited October 27 Posts: 1,368
    Ian Fleming meets "the real" James Bond. A full reboot about a fake "real person".
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,411
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess that is CR though, although arguably you can tell the same story in a different way.

    Well, in CR he uses his judgment to kill the bomber and M doesn't like his decision. He doesn't actually make a mistake--although I guess shooting up the embassy is a mistake. I was thinking a more concrete and impactful mistake.

    Which is pretty clever of the writers of CR: Bond is in M’s bad books but he doesn’t actually muck up as such: he completes the mission, just in an unsatisfactory way. So it doesn’t undermine Bond’s status to the audience as a super agent who always wins, and yet we see he’s a little more fallible than before. It’s quite deft.


    I don't think that a brainwashing plot is a good way for the cinematic Bond to go, maybe ever. IMHO, it's melodramatic and dated and a bit lazy for a spy film. Just because Fleming wrote it doesn't mean that it's the best choice now.

    I tend to agree, I think it's a bit naff and old hat really, plus it's a bit hard to swallow.
  • ArapahoeBondFanArapahoeBondFan Colorado
    edited October 27 Posts: 65
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They can go full meta with Bond 26 and have Bond trying to stop a couple of Hollywood producers from making movies about his missions.

    Haha. Completely referencing the Daniel Craig era as some want to do hear oddly...with the his tenure as a video game series. Called Bond Resurrections.
  • Posts: 1,993
    I wouldn't mind another origin story. Maybe something along these lines:

    Bond is slogging out the daily grind of 9 to 5 as an analyst. He discovers something his supervisors don't see as worrisome. What Bond discovers is what we saw in the PTS. He takes his annual leave and heads directly to the point of his concern. He makes a serious blunder and gets in so deep he cannot turn back. Since he is doing this unofficially, he can't get help from home. Will his ally be the woman he meets and trusts? Or will she be working the other side. Of course Bond will prevail. Will the music he faces when he gets home earn him 00 status? Perhaps that's left unresolved and saved for Bond 27.
  • Posts: 17,756
    I quite like the way we are introduced to River Cartwright in Slough House/Slow Horses, where he is demoted to Slough House after a serious live training exercise goes wrong (which we learn isn't entirely his fault).

    What if we are introduced to a Bond, just entering his first years in the service, where he is – if not the cause of a serious incident – is unable to prevent one, which puts him at a difficult position within the service. Then, for whatever reason, he is called into action, and he must prevent an incident or villainous plot from happening, while at the same time earning the trust again from the service and M.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    I really don’t want to see an origin story.
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