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Agreed. That and Schrader and Scorsese effectively expanded on those ideas a few times afterwards to the point there are a few spiritual sequels to Taxi Driver. King of Comedy, American Giggolo, Light Sleeper, Bringing out The Dead etc.
Absolutely right about 'spiritual sequels'
I think Light Sleeper comes closest. I saw it on it's release and at the time thought it was a little too similar. Excellent performance from Willem Dafoe. I really must give it another watch at some point.
I like Ledger as Joker, but overall I don’t think it’s anywhere near as well made as Batman Begins was. It has some very contrived writing in places - especially in terms of dialogue, but also plot points. Also the final scene clashes with everything the film has set up (namely that despite Gotham’s flaws, people will do the right thing ultimately in hard times). I actually find it a creepy ending and certainly not as virtuous as the film makes it out to be. Also, Batman kills Dent, which should be a bigger deal than it is in the film.
I'm not the biggest Batman fan, so I'm probably not the best person to evaluate these films. Having said that I also prefer Batman Begins to The Dark Knight. Ledger's Joker is indeed phenomenal, but that's the only real highlight in that film, the rest is fine though I never thought it was exceptional. I enjoy BB more on almost all accounts, and it also has a great villain in Murphy's Scarecrow.
I remember watching Dark Knight in the cinema and kind of mentally editing out that whole subplot about the Wayne employee who works out who Batman is- it felt unconnected to the rest of the film and just made it longer. Bear in mind I haven't seen it in many years so don't have a robust knowledge of it.
I did rewatch Batman Begins for the first time in many years recently, I remember that being a very solid film but to be honest my reaction was that I thought it actually hasn't aged well. It all felt oddly flat and the set pieces weren't as exciting as I remembered them being. It was okay, but I was actually a bit disappointed, it feels dated.
I always understood the Wayne Enterprise employee was meant to become the Riddler in a subsequent film, but it was ultimately abandoned.
I’ve not seen BB in a while admittedly but that’s interesting. I’ve always found it had a tighter, more coherent story though. TDK has a tendency to go off on plot tangents that to me feel a bit forced (ie. Gordon ‘fakes’ his death midway through the film and reappears later. It’s to add some emotional stakes for Batman - albeit rather artificially in my opinion. I always find myself questioning how and why he did this as there are no obvious answers. Same can be said about the employee example - it adds nothing). I also found on my last viewing it could be a bit… I dunno if it’s the right word but cerebral? Just a bit too much dialogue that doesn’t sound natural and hammers home ‘ideas’ , especiallly Gordon’s last monologue (and again, I find the idea of Batman playing God and putting Gotham against a common enemy but lying about it… well, a bit creepy and something that never works in practice). BB felt much more naturally engaging for me.
I also like the atmosphere and cinematography of BB more. Gotham just doesn’t have the same Noir feel in the last two films.
Yeah I was honestly surprised, I had memories of it being really good, but yeah; 'flat' was definitely my thought of it. Of the 'origin' movies of that time, I'd say Casino Royale holds up much better. Or maybe I've stayed more familiar with CR so haven't noticed it ageing, I don't know.
I was actually also pretty shocked at the treatment of Bruce's parents. He loses his mum and dad, but from watching BBegins, you'd think his mum wasn't even present in his life- it's all about how great his dad was. His mum pops up in the background a bit but may as well be his nanny. It made me think Nolan's treatment of women is a bit odd. I then googled that and it seems like a thing people have noticed in his career.
I'm with you. I'd say it's my preferred Batman film, followed by BB. All the rest I don't tend to return to.
I'd agree with a lot of that. The entire sequence with the two ferries is pretty tedious.
My favourite of the three is Dark Knight Rises.
That being said, I liked the Tim Burton Batman movies quite a lot, but I also remember watching Batman Begins the first time and telling my wife that it's not just a good Batman movie, but a very good movie, period/full stop. And I stand by that, although Christopher Nolan and basically everything he made afterwards (disclaimer: I haven't watched Oppenheimer yet) is for me the epitome of "overrated". And this includes TDK and TDKR, which I find a lot inferior to BB. But overall, I think the Tim Burton films are much more to my taste of how Batman should be.
Agreed about Nolan films too: The Prestige actually made me angry, it was so stupid. And yet it thinks it's clever. Same sort of thing with Inception- everyone was stroking their chins about the supposedly ambiguous ending saying 'what could it mean', but it could only mean one thing and wasn't a cliffhanger at all.
Catwoman's arc is interesting but ultimately a disappointingly straightforward revenge story following a supernatural transformation. Tim Burton’s disregard for comic accuracy was a loss for both him and the audience—Batman: Year One had already provided a great backstory for the character. The prostitution angle, while perhaps too risqué for WB at the time, was abandoned in favour of a more fantastical yet oddly surreal approach that I find difficult to appreciate.
That said, I do like how the main characters explore their animalistic instincts—one of the few things I can genuinely praise about the film.
The '89 movie had a few strong action sequences, but its sequel, as Elliot Carver would put it, "lacks punch." I expect a Batman film to have at least some action. Batman Forever, for all its flaws, delivers on that front—it may not always be great, but at least it keeps my adrenaline up. Even The Batman, a slow-burn film, makes time for Batman to throw some punches. Keaton, unfortunately, is underused in Batman Returns; it's a shame he spends most of his screen time brooding rather than doing much of anything.
As an avid DC Comics reader, I can appreciate heightened fantasy as well. But film is more than just its story, and Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy works for me on all levels. That’s why I prefer those films to Batman Returns. Then again, I’m a staunch fan of Nolan’s work, including The Prestige, though I respect differing opinions. (For example, while I’d love to see Nolan tackle Bond, I don’t believe he’s the only one capable of pushing the series forward.)
Nolan’s Batman films aim for a more grounded, realistic approach. I’m not saying that’s the only valid direction for Batman, but I find the idea of a close-to-real-world Dark Knight genuinely exciting.
That said, I’m interested in all kinds of Batman interpretations—Burton’s gothic vision, Nolan’s realism, Snyder’s sci-fi-infused take. The key difference for me is that the Nolan and Reeves films get me invested, while Batman Returns feels—pardon the word—masturbatory, a self-indulgent passion project for Burton.
Yeah, I hate when filmmakers feel the need to artificially raise the emotional stakes by including lots of forced gimmicks like pretending to be killed of, going into hiding, rivalry between allies, long lost daughters that sort of thing.
Reminds me of the film Logan a bit when you put it like that/considering the thread we’re in 😉
Fair enough. I think it’s just something that always confused me. Like, there’s no indication it’s pre-planned and there’s no easy to spot benefit to faking his death IIRC (it’s the mayor Joker wanted to assassinate - it’s not like Gordon dying changes that or would even delay anything). To me personally it felt like a ‘gotcha’ moment, and it’s always taken me out of the film.
I like the part with the bombs on the ships. As I said for me the very ending kind of clashes with that idea somewhat.
As I said on the Batman thread, BR is WAY TOO MUCH Tim Burton. To the point, WB should have arguably told him to tone his style down more than once. Long before the final product came out. While directors deserve their visions shown, there does come a point where someone should be told no. As @DarthDimi said, the dark fantasy works for the look of Gotham City. For the characters occupying Gotham, mixed results. As for TDK writing, the Nolans do tend to have some plot holes and cliches. Also, I'm surprised that WB and DC didn't ask for some The Animated Series people for more ideas and stories. They had that perfect mix of those director's styles.
We are so familiar with "the formula" that we're set up for what's coming. I prefer films that upend my expectations.
The makers of The Animated series certainly did get Batman. and as you say, got the perfect mix of styles.
Their treatment of Harvey Dent/Two Face is the best portrayal of the character bar none.
Glad to see another Batman TAS Two-Face Fan. Emmy worthy material, for the writing and Richard Moll's voice over performance. I also think the same makers TRULY should have been (and still could) look at Superman. Superman TAS is underrated. They certainly understood Superman better than Bryan Singer, Zack Snyder and maybe even James Gunn. I feel that not using that team of talent was a waste for Superman for almost 30 years now.
Now that you mention animation, I quite liked Mask of the Phantasm, which I totally forgot about, but if you ask me now I think I like that one the best out of all the Batman films.