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Interesting take! For me, I personally really like the torture scene which I've never thought to compare to the CR torture scene to be honest.
For me, the biggest fails of Spectre (besides the general mishandling/shoehorning of Spectre into the Craig era), is the writing for the Whitehall Brigade. Through no fault of their own, any time Moneypenny or Q are on screen and talking, it's a bit abysmal. IMO.
I actually enjoyed seeing as much of Naomie Harris as possible. And though the Rome-chase phone call was odd, I took great delight in the Bond-Moneypenny banter.
"It was just a friend."
"At this time of night?"
Craig delivered that line perfectly.
Yes, he did. I just watched it on my new 4K and it has become my favourite Craig Bond. For the time being, at any rate....
Nice to see some appreciation for the chase. I never understood the general complaint that it should have been replaced with a fundamentally different type of scene.
But yeah, Moneypenny's "secret" line is awful. And somehow it made the trailer!
I think the chase itself doesn't quite do the cars justice either, they just sort of do these big balletic slides- it's like they're dancing more than chasing. They don't feel like they're driving the cars hard or desperately. The NTTD Aston chase does feel more like an actual chase; or the BMW chase in MI Fallout- that feels like someone driving a car at its limit to try and get away.
Spectre is such an odd one: I know there's things wrong with it but I always find it hard to put my finger on quite what it is. Whenever someone suggests this or that should be removed I always think 'hmm, but that's quite a good idea, I like that being in the film'! I guess it's more about how it all fits together, and I don't know how you fix that.
Could the Moneypenny call have happened after the chase? Maybe.
The NTTD PTS does it much better because while there is exposition with Madeleine and Blofeld, it feels like there are real stakes. I think someone at Eon realized that it's much more dramatic to have another person in the car with you than on a phone call.
The scene shows Bond at the stage where he's been in so many chases over the years that it doesn't faze him anymore - he's an expert at this - driving and eluding, casually making a phone call in the meantime. Reminds me of when I had a delivery job years ago, I drove all day every day and in different vehicles, eventually reaching a level of mastery that left me feeling euphoric. Predicting the possible outcomes of what the traffic is going to do up ahead while filling out my delivery sheet on the drive into work.
A few more people/cars on the streets of Rome would've been good, but great scene nonetheless - and I want my scale model of the Jag please.
DAF and AVTAK have them too. ;-)
I love your analysis about Bond being so relaxed.
Bond is so cool, calm and collected in this film, like after he faces Mr. Hinx on the train, there's neither a hair out of place nor bead of blood on the tux. Ironic considering Hinx is the most imposing henchman we got in the Craig era?
I wonder though if it would have been funnier if Bond had really needed the gadgets to work- if the battle was a bit harder. As it is they don't really change much, he just keeps going with no problem. Like the gun turns out to be empty, and as a reply he gets rammed hard by Hinx and goes into a spin.
I just think to when Mission Impossible did a film where all the gadgets failed and it was always right when they needed them the most.
It's the infuriating thing about Spectre, so many good bits in there!
I have similar thoughts. You have all these ingredients for what should be an exciting chase through a great location and we're left more to ponder why it didn't create more excitement.
I like that relaxed aspect too and the gadgets not working. But it makes you question the intent. You have the setup of the Spectre board meeting and Craig finally getting a worthy henchman who just showed how tough he was. But the chase we get is something out of the Moore or Brosnan eras with the unsuspecting people in cars in the way and Hinx getting burned by a gadget that actually works and walking away with no effect, like Jaws.
I also wonder why they didn't have Hinx come back in the climactic escape from the ruined MI6 HQ for one final battle. Dragging him off the train just didn't seem like it would be the end of him, not that I wanted him to have a Jaws invulnerability, but it just could've made that escape more exciting cause the finale that followed was so underwhelming.
I know the film is flawed, but I always enjoy watching it. It's like the Bond version of a Hammer movie, with a bigger budget and channeling Stanley Kubrick.
Would it have been better if Blofeld had been more emotional about it, and his pursuit of Bond was actually harming Spectre's big plan? Perhaps C needs Blofeld in his tower to complete the process in some way, but he petulantly insists on going after Bond instead. Maybe Bond and M even plot this out and exploit Blofeld's obsession, so it is more clearly his downfall. He's got some sort of device, a key or something, which C needs but he's too busy chasing Bond, and Bond is trying to get that key. Make him more ranting and raving and more obviously full of hate for his cuckoo.
Perhaps get Q to fake something up to convince Blofeld that C is trying to force him out and has been faking the information Blofeld has been receiving. End up with him trying desperately to swim across the Thames to stop him. But then maybe that's all a bit too Mission Impossible. It would be good if the situation between them paid off a bit more in the climax though: it doesn't quite feel like it has a reason to be in the film as it is.
Maybe C starts to doubt Blofeld over his chasing of Bond, and how it has harmed the project, and there's a Spectre mutiny to push Blofeld out - yet another cuckoo in his nest.
That’s why the foster brother angle doesn’t bother me as much, because the movie barely even engages with that conceit. As soon as Oberhauser announces himself as Blofeld his background is entirely irrelevant. Nobody ever mentions the name Oberhauser ever again. He’s officially just Blofeld as far as everyone else is concerned.
Yeah you're completely right; it's just I don't actually hate the foster brother thing and I wonder if there's a way of making it pay off. The reason Blofeld is so important to Bond in the previous books and films is that he killed someone close to Bond- they've preserved that here in a way with him killing Bond's foster parent, which I do think is quite neat thinking, especially to do that by using the plot from Fleming's Octopussy.
re: the thwarting previous SPECTRE plots: the excellent idea someone else had on here of getting Helen McCrory back from SF to play C not only gives us a brilliant actor but also is a kind of a free of charge way of making it seem like Blofeld had his fingers into the British government from as far back as the previous film. A way of building him up which doesn't feel as unconvincing as the 'I was beneath Vesper pulling her deeper in the water on a fishing line mwah-ha-ha' stuff. You could say in Skyfall she was even making sure that Dench M got fired, perhaps so they could replace her with a Spectre agent.
I know it's in danger of adding too much, but the whole thing about Bond and Blofeld being 'brothers' is something which is a bit hard to swallow: if we're going with the 'author of your pain' stuff with Blofeld meddling in the background over the previous years, could you push it more and have it so Blofeld has always been there fiddling away, so he was the one adjusting the records making sure Bond always got promoted, steering his career as much as he could towards becoming 007? Does that take too much away from Bond? I just think if you did that, it would perhaps make both of them ending up on two sides of the same job a little easier to swallow- Blofeld has actually manoeuvred James into that position to face him, plus it would tie in with the story of the film where Bond decides to quit his job. He rejects the 'destiny' Blofeld has carved for him.
Yeah, I wish they'd just run with Blofeld being... well, Blofeld. It's perfectly reasonable that he'd be annoyed at Bond for thwarting his plans in the past. Bond would have beef with him too as Blofeld's organisation was responsible for Vesper's death. To be honest there's actually already a lot in there that's engaging. The whole 'knowing each other as kids' thing is a bit pointless, and if anything in practice gives Bond less conflict.
I agree. Even the "author of all your pain" line works in that context. Heck, Blofeld could even have killed Oberhauser: he could have used him to find a treasure hidden in the mountains or something, as per the short story Octopussy. Far-fetched, but somewhat less so.
If there’s one thing I could change it’s that “Quantum” would have never been named in QOS. Leaving them unnamed like in CR at least allows the reveal of the name Spectre to not feel convoluted with Quantum. Of course, Quantum was by all means a new Spectre back in 2008 when they didn’t have those McClory rights.
Yeah, they didn't commit enough: so it's either, as you say, ditch it completely, or lean into it fully and actually make it pay off in the film.
I think there is a fan edit where they excise the foster brother stuff, and I'm sure it works fine. I'm trying to think of any bit of plotting which would be an issue without it. Searching through the script, 'Oberhauser' is only said five times.
That was a shame. Could you have just said that, after MI6 discovered them in QoS, they simply ditched the Quantum name in the intervening years and became Spectre? Is that even what happens? It's all a bit unclear really.
It's telling that Bond calls him Blofeld and not Franz as soon as Blofeld gives him his new name. I think Cain and Abel doesn't work as an add-on: it needs to be central and organic to the plot. And it just doesn't work for Blofeld.
I'd fundamentally disagree that Bond doesn't react to Oberhauser/Blofeld's identity. His reaction at the Spectre meeting is obviously personal, and he sounds troubled talking about it with Moneypenny. His focus becomes sharper as well, as indicated by his tone with Mr White.
I think the relationship between them informs every aspect of the way their interactions are written, and almost certainly how they're acted. Blofeld regularly goads Bond, and Bond doesn't allow Blofeld to see it get to him (to the extent that it does at all: Bond, unlike Blofeld, has learned to not be ruled by past trauma, real or imagined). This follows well from their backstory. I love how Blofeld refers to himself as "the man inside your head" when he has clearly failed to become that (at least figuratively!), while Bond seems to be living rent-free in Blofeld's head. Their parting on the bridge also, to me anyway, makes a lot more sense with the backstory we've been given.
I wouldn't have wanted the personal history to take any more time than it did either. I like the dynamic it sets up, and it does the obviously intended job of fast-forwarding to them having the established rivalry already known by the audience.