Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 25 Posts: 16,846
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Don't like a poster or their continual gripes, then skip and move on to the next post. They don't need to continually be put down.

    And who is this latest put down aimed at I wonder? Same one as usual? ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,371
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Don't like a poster or their continual gripes, then skip and move on to the next post. They don't need to continually be put down.

    And who is this latest put down aimed at I wonder? Same one as usual? ;)

    I'm sure I'm the culprit.

    I'm also sure that I wasn't putting anyone down. Every once in a while I just walk into a now three-year-old one-way discussion replete with "facts" (that aren't true), "the audience's opinion" (that is merely the poster's opinion), and Nostradamus-like predictions about release dates and whatnot that are based on, well, nothing. I then sigh, dribble my usual responses on the floor, turn around, and walk away before returning a few weeks later for more of the same.

    But if that comes off as rude or me putting someone down, I sincerely apologize.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,428
    I loved NTTD. Excellently acted, written, directed, paced. Love the song.

    I would not be unhappy with more of that in the future.

    Bond died. Okay, let's move on in another timeline.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,846
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But if that comes off as rude or me putting someone down, I sincerely apologize.

    It didn't at all.
  • Posts: 1,550
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,235
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.

    Yeah, EON knows more about filmmaking. But for me, I felt since Bond's going to die in this one, that makes it a unique Bond film. So my thinking was, go all out in making this the darkest Bond film yet.

    Licence To Kill is a good example. A unique and very different sort of Bond film, that went all out to do exactly what it aimed for.
  • edited January 25 Posts: 4,471
    Bond films have a tendency to get surprisingly dark in places. The older ones certainly could, particularly the Moore ones. Even MR had moments like a woman getting mauled by dogs. The early Jaws scenes in TSWLM with him biting his victims feel like something from a horror film. I also always found the death of 009 in OP unsettling as a kid. I actually like that NTTD is a film with a good bit of darkness to it. The nanobots - while a borderline sci-fi idea - genuinely feel quite scary, and of course it helps that we get the gruesome SPECTRE agent deaths to show what they can actually do.

    Bond films I feel can afford to stretch out that element of darkness in their stories to some degree. It makes their escapism more compelling. You don't want a Bond film to come off as too 'bubblegummy' or lightweight even if humour and thrills are so vital to them. It's one of the things that I think actually separates Bond from many other franchises.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 724
    There's a difference between Bond movies with dark scenes in them and Bond movies that are made with the sole purpose of being dark. NTTD is a nihilistic satire of Bond.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,180
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    As 2025 is the 10th anniversary of SPECTRE, next year we can officially say there had been only one Bond movie made in a ten year span.
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.

    Yeah, EON knows more about filmmaking. But for me, I felt since Bond's going to die in this one, that makes it a unique Bond film. So my thinking was, go all out in making this the darkest Bond film yet.

    Licence To Kill is a good example. A unique and very different sort of Bond film, that went all out to do exactly what it aimed for.

    I don't think LTK really followed it's hard edge through to the end. It should have been a ending that had Bond contemplating on his uncertain future. Instead we got a chipper Leiter (even though he'd been maimed by a Shark and had his new wife murdered) and that bloody winking Fish.

    I think the tone in NTTD is pretty spot on. Yes, the Cuba scene is more jovial but it's not completely out of place.

    Personally i think CR and QoS are pretty dark in tone, and follow it thorough to the end.

  • Posts: 4,471
    slide_99 wrote: »
    There's a difference between Bond movies with dark scenes in them and Bond movies that are made with the sole purpose of being dark. NTTD is a nihilistic satire of Bond.

    I don't think that was the sole purpose of NTTD (or any film), but whatever, to each their own. Bond films having stories that are consciously on the darker or at least more serious side aren't unheard of either - LTK being the major example.
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    As 2025 is the 10th anniversary of SPECTRE, next year we can officially say there had been only one Bond movie made in a ten year span.
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.

    Yeah, EON knows more about filmmaking. But for me, I felt since Bond's going to die in this one, that makes it a unique Bond film. So my thinking was, go all out in making this the darkest Bond film yet.

    Licence To Kill is a good example. A unique and very different sort of Bond film, that went all out to do exactly what it aimed for.

    I don't think LTK really followed it's hard edge through to the end. It should have been a ending that had Bond contemplating on his uncertain future. Instead we got a chipper Leiter (even though he'd been maimed by a Shark and had his new wife murdered) and that bloody winking Fish.

    I think the tone in NTTD is pretty spot on. Yes, the Cuba scene is more jovial but it's not completely out of place.

    Personally i think CR and QoS are pretty dark in tone, and follow it thorough to the end.

    I think there's a good balance in all of those examples, even QOS. Bond is a franchise where a film about a revenge driven protagonist can have scenes such as him harpooning a plane and water skiing without skis. It's the escapism and fun of it. NTTD fits in well with the other films for me in that sense.
  • edited January 25 Posts: 1,550
    They can make a dark movie but Bond died in NTTD. I think it would be excessively depressing for the audience.

    Something like Logan would be too much. I can understand this.


    But I don't like how the character dies. I think they didn't know how to do it.

  • Posts: 2,089
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Don't like a poster or their continual gripes, then skip and move on to the next post. They don't need to continually be put down.

    And who is this latest put down aimed at I wonder? Same one as usual? ;)

    I'm sure I'm the culprit.

    I'm also sure that I wasn't putting anyone down. Every once in a while I just walk into a now three-year-old one-way discussion replete with "facts" (that aren't true), "the audience's opinion" (that is merely the poster's opinion), and Nostradamus-like predictions about release dates and whatnot that are based on, well, nothing. I then sigh, dribble my usual responses on the floor, turn around, and walk away before returning a few weeks later for more of the same.

    But if that comes off as rude or me putting someone down, I sincerely apologize.

    Sort of like the old joke, "It hurts when I do this." "Then don't do it." Don't read posts from someone whose comments you believe lack credibility.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 25 Posts: 6,428
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    As 2025 is the 10th anniversary of SPECTRE, next year we can officially say there had been only one Bond movie made in a ten year span.
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.

    Yeah, EON knows more about filmmaking. But for me, I felt since Bond's going to die in this one, that makes it a unique Bond film. So my thinking was, go all out in making this the darkest Bond film yet.

    Licence To Kill is a good example. A unique and very different sort of Bond film, that went all out to do exactly what it aimed for.

    I don't think LTK really followed it's hard edge through to the end. It should have been a ending that had Bond contemplating on his uncertain future. Instead we got a chipper Leiter (even though he'd been maimed by a Shark and had his new wife murdered) and that bloody winking Fish.

    I think the tone in NTTD is pretty spot on. Yes, the Cuba scene is more jovial but it's not completely out of place.

    Personally i think CR and QoS are pretty dark in tone, and follow it thorough to the end.

    Agreed. I think LTK could have followed through on the darkness more. Maybe he leaves with Pam (I think this is in one of the drafts)...maybe he meets Leiter at Della's grave...maybe there's a question mark as to whether he'll get his license back, which would have been prescient given the hiatus that was about to come.

    The ending, as it is, is a bit too tidy and upbeat.

    The Craig films followed through on their convictions more. And overall I think they are better films for it.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,180
    echo wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    As 2025 is the 10th anniversary of SPECTRE, next year we can officially say there had been only one Bond movie made in a ten year span.
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.

    Yeah, EON knows more about filmmaking. But for me, I felt since Bond's going to die in this one, that makes it a unique Bond film. So my thinking was, go all out in making this the darkest Bond film yet.

    Licence To Kill is a good example. A unique and very different sort of Bond film, that went all out to do exactly what it aimed for.

    I don't think LTK really followed it's hard edge through to the end. It should have been a ending that had Bond contemplating on his uncertain future. Instead we got a chipper Leiter (even though he'd been maimed by a Shark and had his new wife murdered) and that bloody winking Fish.

    I think the tone in NTTD is pretty spot on. Yes, the Cuba scene is more jovial but it's not completely out of place.

    Personally i think CR and QoS are pretty dark in tone, and follow it thorough to the end.

    Agreed. I think LTK could have followed through on the darkness more. Maybe he leaves with Pam (I think this is in one of the drafts)...maybe he meets Leiter at Della's grave...maybe there's a question mark as to whether he'll get his license back, which would have been prescient given the hiatus that was about to come.

    The ending, as it is, is a bit too tidy and upbeat.

    The Craig films followed through on their convictions more. And overall I think they are better films for it.

    Definitely.

    I admired the producers for attempting something different with LTK, but unfortunately for me, it was a swing and a miss...
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 25 Posts: 2,235
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    As 2025 is the 10th anniversary of SPECTRE, next year we can officially say there had been only one Bond movie made in a ten year span.
    Yeah, I would have very much liked Bond to survive. But Bond's death was never my problem with NTTD, but the tonal shifts for a film that ends tragic. Not that I don't have emotions, but I don't feel the impact of Bond's death like many Bond fans said they did, which I would have loved to feel, if the tonal shifts weren't present...even Zimmer's Final Ascent doesn't do it, even if I enjoy the track.

    I think the track would have worked more, if the film felt like CR or SF and went fully for darkness, even if CR & SF balanced darkness and light properly. In a nutshell, my problem with NTTD is, it didn't balance darkness and light properly. Plus, we didn't get the great villain we were promised with all the hype.

    But hey! It is what it is, it's the official 25th Bond film and it's come to stay.

    I don't know if audiences would accept a darker movie.

    Anyway, my problem with the movie is that it is boring (too long!) and that Bond's death is not up to par.

    It is not epic nor is it sad. It's silly.

    Yeah, EON knows more about filmmaking. But for me, I felt since Bond's going to die in this one, that makes it a unique Bond film. So my thinking was, go all out in making this the darkest Bond film yet.

    Licence To Kill is a good example. A unique and very different sort of Bond film, that went all out to do exactly what it aimed for.

    I don't think LTK really followed it's hard edge through to the end. It should have been a ending that had Bond contemplating on his uncertain future. Instead we got a chipper Leiter (even though he'd been maimed by a Shark and had his new wife murdered) and that bloody winking Fish.

    I think the tone in NTTD is pretty spot on. Yes, the Cuba scene is more jovial but it's not completely out of place.

    Personally i think CR and QoS are pretty dark in tone, and follow it thorough to the end.

    Yeah, I think LTK is a good example of balancing darkness and light in a Bond film. I'm not exactly saying I wanted NTTD to be entirely dark. But it seems it takes certain skills for a director to balance darkness and light in a Bond film. Because in GE, we got Boris, but it didn't affect the film's dark tone. Now in NTTD, we got Valdo and it didn't work like it did in GE. QoS also had Elvis, yet it worked.
  • I can sort of understand why LTK had a much lighter ending than what people were hoping. The film is riddled to the brim with dark moments (more so than some of Craig’s films); to end the film on a bleak note would’ve been a bad move imo. Could’ve done without the winking fish though.
  • edited January 25 Posts: 1,550
    I can sort of understand why LTK had a much lighter ending than what people were hoping. The film is riddled to the brim with dark moments (more so than some of Craig’s films); to end the film on a bleak note would’ve been a bad move imo. Could’ve done without the winking fish though.

    The ending was necessary because nobody wanted LTK 2. Bond returns to being 007 to have more adventures.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 25 Posts: 2,235
    I can sort of understand why LTK had a much lighter ending than what people were hoping. The film is riddled to the brim with dark moments (more so than some of Craig’s films); to end the film on a bleak note would’ve been a bad move imo. Could’ve done without the winking fish though.

    Yeah. I agree. It's John Glen's love for animals, though. He couldn't help it.
  • echo wrote: »
    I loved NTTD. Excellently acted, written, directed, paced. Love the song.

    I would not be unhappy with more of that in the future.

    Bond died. Okay, let's move on in another timeline.

    Likewise. NTTD is a great film with a bold ending. Took balls to do that.
  • Posts: 93
    CrabKey wrote: »
    For me, the Craig series has never been able to live up to CR. I attribute a lot of that to the fact that Fleming material made up the bulk of the plot rather creating original stories with a bit of a Fleming thrown in here and there.

    Though Connery is still my number one Bond, CR and OHMSS occupy the top spot in my list of Bond films.
    Agree 100%.

    But also, I don’t see any wriggle room left in the character fwiw. Craig really did kill him off. We need a new hero, for Britain ;)

  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,299
    LTK was a bold move for the franchise, and while it has its moments, it has the production values of a weekly, television crime drama.
  • talos7 wrote: »
    LTK was a bold move for the franchise, and while it has its moments, it has the production values of a weekly, television crime drama.

    True, but the “TV like quality” of LTK doesn’t really bother me as much as it used too. I’m too invested in the story, characters, and action to notice these days.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,299
    talos7 wrote: »
    LTK was a bold move for the franchise, and while it has its moments, it has the production values of a weekly, television crime drama.

    True, but the “TV like quality” of LTK doesn’t really bother me as much as it used too. I’m too invested in the story, characters, and action to notice these days.

    I wish that I could say the same…
  • Posts: 1,550
    talos7 wrote: »
    LTK was a bold move for the franchise, and while it has its moments, it has the production values of a weekly, television crime drama.

    People say this but GE is the one with a TV director.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 26 Posts: 2,235
    talos7 wrote: »
    LTK was a bold move for the franchise, and while it has its moments, it has the production values of a weekly, television crime drama.

    True, but the “TV like quality” of LTK doesn’t really bother me as much as it used too. I’m too invested in the story, characters, and action to notice these days.

    True. I noticed that before. But these days, Aesthetics doesn't worry me much when it comes to LTK, because the story is so intense. It has some of the best action sequences in the franchise. I worry whenever the villain is on screen. Great characters on screen. Yes, it might feel like a Telemundo show at times, but it's a good Bond film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,371
    I'm a bit surprised -- not shocked, just surprised -- to read some complaints about the look of the film. LTK is a child of its time. It looks like a 1989 film, not like '80s TV stuff. I've had my share of the latter, and that looked a lot worse, to be honest.

    LTK could have put more effort into its aesthetics, but the budget most likely didn't allow it. Still, I have never felt any disappointment with this film's look.
  • edited January 26 Posts: 1,550
    I think it was intended to be more realistic and "modern".

    No more Bond walking through the desert in a tuxedo.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,235
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm a bit surprised -- not shocked, just surprised -- to read some complaints about the look of the film. LTK is a child of its time. It looks like a 1989 film, not like '80s TV stuff. I've had my share of the latter, and that looked a lot worse, to be honest.

    LTK could have put more effort into its aesthetics, but the budget most likely didn't allow it. Still, I have never felt any disappointment with this film's look.

    Totally agree.
  • Posts: 4,471
    I wouldn't call LTK the most polished Bond film in terms of filmmaking (stuff like the slow motion run Felix and the DEA agents do feels a bit weird, and you get the occasional moment like Pam appearing to Dario as an 'angel' which feels like it was a gag or visual pun cut down a bit). It definitely has a very 80s quality to it, but I'm not sure if I'd go as far to say nowadays that it has a tv movie feel. It's very cinematic in places, especially the final chase.
  • Posts: 7,678
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm a bit surprised -- not shocked, just surprised -- to read some complaints about the look of the film. LTK is a child of its time. It looks like a 1989 film, not like '80s TV stuff. I've had my share of the latter, and that looked a lot worse, to be honest.

    LTK could have put more effort into its aesthetics, but the budget most likely didn't allow it. Still, I have never felt any disappointment with this film's look.

    +1
    And it doesn't take away from the fact it has a solid story, great characters and top notch action, and of course, a fantastic Bond 😁
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