Looking through John Logan's script for "Spectre"

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  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,347
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess.. maybe it's for another thread, but finding a villain's scheme that's interesting is a really tough call I think. Silva wanting to kill M is such a nice and simple way of getting the audience to feel the drama; I'd suggest that Camille's path of revenge on Maduro is probably more interesting and engaging than Greene's evil plot too.

    Medrano XD.

  • Posts: 15,479
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess.. maybe it's for another thread, but finding a villain's scheme that's interesting is a really tough call I think. Silva wanting to kill M is such a nice and simple way of getting the audience to feel the drama; I'd suggest that Camille's path of revenge on Maduro is probably more interesting and engaging than Greene's evil plot too.

    I always loved the plot of QOS. If it's good enough for Chinatown, Once Upon a Time in the West and Jean de Florette/Manon des Sources, it's good enough for a Bond villain.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 17,609
    It should be an interesting idea, but I find QoS makes it uninteresting and undramatic. Bond doesn't even undo his scheme: he just kills him and we have to presume someone else sorts it all out offscreen afterwards.

    In fact it always bugs me that Bond and Camille walk through that village which seems to be suffering from a drought: and they don't tell them there's a huge reservoir of water within walking distance! :D
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,907
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess.. maybe it's for another thread, but finding a villain's scheme that's interesting is a really tough call I think. Silva wanting to kill M is such a nice and simple way of getting the audience to feel the drama; I'd suggest that Camille's path of revenge on Maduro is probably more interesting and engaging than Greene's evil plot too.

    I always loved the plot of QOS. If it's good enough for Chinatown, Once Upon a Time in the West and Jean de Florette/Manon des Sources, it's good enough for a Bond villain.
    mtm wrote: »
    It should be an interesting idea, but I find QoS makes it uninteresting and undramatic. Bond doesn't even undo his scheme: he just kills him and we have to presume someone else sorts it all out offscreen afterwards.

    In fact it always bugs me that Bond and Camille walk through that village which seems to be suffering from a drought: and they don't tell them there's a huge reservoir of water within walking distance! :D

    Marc “I don’t like James Bond, but I love Casino Royale” is arguably the one to blame.
  • Posts: 9,927
    Yes I know the site above is in French but some images could interest you.

    About the snow chase, well, in previz they did indeed seriously considered the rumoured snowmobile chase

    Script-B24-17.jpg

    (image from http://www.commander007.net/2015/11/spectre-autres-scripts/ )

    shame that spectre didnt have the snowmobile chase
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Yes I know the site above is in French but some images could interest you.

    About the snow chase, well, in previz they did indeed seriously considered the rumoured snowmobile chase

    Script-B24-17.jpg

    (image from http://www.commander007.net/2015/11/spectre-autres-scripts/ )

    shame that spectre didnt have the snowmobile chase

    Yeah, it seems SP has countless missed opportunities. Whenever we look into it, we discover more.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited July 2020 Posts: 5,993
    Charlotte King was an element i was sad to see they ditched.

    We would've have finally had a proper femme-fatale in the Craig-era.
  • Posts: 8,012
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Yes I know the site above is in French but some images could interest you.

    About the snow chase, well, in previz they did indeed seriously considered the rumoured snowmobile chase

    Script-B24-17.jpg

    (image from http://www.commander007.net/2015/11/spectre-autres-scripts/ )

    shame that spectre didnt have the snowmobile chase

    Yes, would have been very cool!
    Good thing is, they never throw away these ideas, so its bound to turn up in a future Bond!
    (Example, the OP Acrostar jet was meant for MR!)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,609
    Ooh I need to read back through this thread. Never seen that skidoo visual before.
  • Posts: 15,479
    mtm wrote: »
    It should be an interesting idea, but I find QoS makes it uninteresting and undramatic. Bond doesn't even undo his scheme: he just kills him and we have to presume someone else sorts it all out offscreen afterwards.

    In fact it always bugs me that Bond and Camille walk through that village which seems to be suffering from a drought: and they don't tell them there's a huge reservoir of water within walking distance! :D

    Well, since it was through Greene that the scheme was to be made once Medrano took power, Bond with Camille pretty much destroyed Quantum's scheme there: Greene is dead, Medrano and his men are dead, the coup d'état did not happen. I do think it could have been developed more and better. The execution may have been lacking, but the plot itself was great.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 17,609
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It should be an interesting idea, but I find QoS makes it uninteresting and undramatic. Bond doesn't even undo his scheme: he just kills him and we have to presume someone else sorts it all out offscreen afterwards.

    In fact it always bugs me that Bond and Camille walk through that village which seems to be suffering from a drought: and they don't tell them there's a huge reservoir of water within walking distance! :D

    Well, since it was through Greene that the scheme was to be made once Medrano took power, Bond with Camille pretty much destroyed Quantum's scheme there: Greene is dead, Medrano and his men are dead, the coup d'état did not happen. I do think it could have been developed more and better. The execution may have been lacking, but the plot itself was great.

    I just think if you're going to make a plot about something, then in a Bond film you should explore that visually a bit. Goldfinger liked gold, so we get Fort Knox with bars stacked high. Water gets mentioned in QoS and apart from a brief glimpse at a reservoir it doesn't get explored at all: it may as well just be money. It's just an abstract commodity, not a theme. It's not interesting or dramatic.
    Give me personal stakes and a bit of drama any day.
  • Posts: 15,479
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It should be an interesting idea, but I find QoS makes it uninteresting and undramatic. Bond doesn't even undo his scheme: he just kills him and we have to presume someone else sorts it all out offscreen afterwards.

    In fact it always bugs me that Bond and Camille walk through that village which seems to be suffering from a drought: and they don't tell them there's a huge reservoir of water within walking distance! :D

    Well, since it was through Greene that the scheme was to be made once Medrano took power, Bond with Camille pretty much destroyed Quantum's scheme there: Greene is dead, Medrano and his men are dead, the coup d'état did not happen. I do think it could have been developed more and better. The execution may have been lacking, but the plot itself was great.

    I just think if you're going to make a plot about something, then in a Bond film you should explore that visually a bit. Goldfinger liked gold, so we get Fort Knox with bars stacked high. Water gets mentioned in QoS and apart from a brief glimpse at a reservoir it doesn't get explored at all: it may as well just be money. It's just an abstract commodity, not a theme.
    Give me personal stakes and a bit of drama any day.

    I agree it was not explored much visually, except as an absence (not unlike the other films I have mentioned, come to think of it.)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,609
    I finally read one of the P/W earlier drafts of this (the 2014/08/10 one), which I know isn't massively different from the final film, but still has some interesting stuff. Obviously the much-maligned third act isn't entirely working in that one either, but I thought it does have a much more apposite defeat for C, in that he's hoist by own petard by having the surveillance system he covets so much turned on him in front of a crowd: that's a perfect ending for him and works really well. It's a shame they couldn't keep that, but I guess one of the baddies had to die, and if Blofeld wasn't going to (and Bond killing him on the bridge in this one does feel very off) then he had to. This third act also has some nice bits of shooty action for Bond too.

    I also liked the stuff with Moneypenny being suspended but then really working undercover for M, although there's a very odd plot strand where 'Blofeld' is worried about some document or other which would prove his identity as Oberhauser- why would he care? It's a bit fudged as to whether he's supposed to be reputable or not, and to be honest I think the film version where he's just an underground super-criminal is better and cleaner. I liked his backstory with the foreign legion thing; that felt like a Fleming thing, but the aspect where he's suffering from some kind of wasting disease feels a bit unnecessary. And in this one the foster brother thing feels even more underheated, only really doing anything at all in the final confrontation on Westminster Bridge. It feels even more like, if they wanted to do it then they should have built the whole film around it, which this just isn't.
    Q being kidnapped I'm not sure is really needed, even if the reveal of Spectre's name on his bathroom mirror is a nice one; meanwhile Madeline being taken from the crater base by 'Blofeld', straight to the old MI6 building is so much cleaner I wonder why they ever deleted it. Nice Goldfinger ref in the PTS with Bond peeling off his commando suit to reveal a nice suit and tie under, but probably better without; and Bond's gadget watch is activated by turning the bezel to 0-0-7: that's good old fun.
    Oh also, nice gag in the car chase phone call where 'Penny asks Bond what he's doing and he replies "about 90". Why isn't that in the final film?

    I really enjoyed the gag where Madeline is confused that Bond travels everywhere with a dinner suit but he's puzzled that she finds it strange as if it's a totally naturally thing to do.

    Is the other P&W draft worth reading too?
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 769
    mtm wrote: »
    I finally read one of the P/W earlier drafts of this (the 2014/08/10 one), which I know isn't massively different from the final film, but still has some interesting stuff. Obviously the much-maligned third act isn't entirely working in that one either, but I thought it does have a much more apposite defeat for C, in that he's hoist by own petard by having the surveillance system he covets so much turned on him in front of a crowd: that's a perfect ending for him and works really well. It's a shame they couldn't keep that, but I guess one of the baddies had to die, and if Blofeld wasn't going to (and Bond killing him on the bridge in this one does feel very off) then he had to. This third act also has some nice bits of shooty action for Bond too.

    I also liked the stuff with Moneypenny being suspended but then really working undercover for M, although there's a very odd plot strand where 'Blofeld' is worried about some document or other which would prove his identity as Oberhauser- why would he care? It's a bit fudged as to whether he's supposed to be reputable or not, and to be honest I think the film version where he's just an underground super-criminal is better and cleaner. I liked his backstory with the foreign legion thing; that felt like a Fleming thing, but the aspect where he's suffering from some kind of wasting disease feels a bit unnecessary. And in this one the foster brother thing feels even more underheated, only really doing anything at all in the final confrontation on Westminster Bridge. It feels even more like, if they wanted to do it then they should have built the whole film around it, which this just isn't.
    Q being kidnapped I'm not sure is really needed, even if the reveal of Spectre's name on his bathroom mirror is a nice one; meanwhile Madeline being taken from the crater base by 'Blofeld', straight to the old MI6 building is so much cleaner I wonder why they ever deleted it. Nice Goldfinger ref in the PTS with Bond peeling off his commando suit to reveal a nice suit and tie under, but probably better without; and Bond's gadget watch is activated by turning the bezel to 0-0-7: that's good old fun.
    Oh also, nice gag in the car chase phone call where 'Penny asks Bond what he's doing and he replies "about 90". Why isn't that in the final film?

    I really enjoyed the gag where Madeline is confused that Bond travels everywhere with a dinner suit but he's puzzled that she finds it strange as if it's a totally naturally thing to do.

    Is the other P&W draft worth reading too?

    How many different scripts are out there? I thought it was Logan's draft and then P&W's update?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 14 Posts: 17,609
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually thought it made sense linking Silva to SPECTRE. I understood he was more or less freelancing for them anyway. It is unlikely Silva would have been able to operate without their knowledge and consent. And it made more sense to have his henchmen motivated by something else than his own personal vendetta.

    The more I think about it, the more I reckon they should have played it up (yes, I am replying to a nine year-old post here! :D ). The plan in Spectre is to basically take over the intelligence service and shunt it out of the way, and it's easy to see what happened in Skyfall as part one of that plan: he attacks MI6 and its boss and discredits both with the list of blown agents. That puts MI6 under pressure leading to C creating his CNS.
    I think they should have lead less with Blofeld behind absolutely everything -with photos of Greene and Le Chiffre and all that- and maybe foregrounded Silva a bit more; maybe drawn a more direct line between Silva and DenchM's suspicions of Sciarra. Have Bond find evidence of Sciarra meeting Silva or something, in much the same way we see him radicalising the bombers in Mexico. Silva's grievance with M was obviously real, but Spectre could have found him and fanned the flames.
    I think if you wanted to retrofit Blofeld as being 'behind it all' then just limiting him to being behind Silva would have been easier to swallow, having links to Quantum is fine, but making out that it was all a masterplan doesn't really add up.

    I do find Spectre sort of fascinating; there's so much in there I like and the ideas are all good, they just don't quite join up.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,734
    I can't remember which script it was a friend sent me, but I always remember being stunned when I read the original final line was "we have all the time in the world"
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,609
    Oh wow, that must be the other version I didn’t read. That’s a surprising note to go for as it’s positive for some of the audience and a bit of a downer for those who know.
    Interesting that it did pop up the very next time we see them in that car though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,464
    If I had to cut out just one line in the film, just one, if would be Madeline’s “I love you”. I can buy the two being attracted to each other and such, but trying to throw in the L word in the context of what came before just doesn’t play.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,609
    I watched it last night, must admit I didn't mind that.
    I'd cut the line where she says she's leaving Bond at Hildebrand; it's just not needed. Jave her just decide to stay behind, that's fine.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,951
    I remember a girlfriend saying "I love you" prematurely, to which I replied, "Thanks." Didn't go down well at all, but the point is it's common for people to declare that following amazing sex and/or sense of security.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited March 16 Posts: 748
    I guess it doesn't help that the chemistry between them isn't the strongest, in my opinion of course. It improves somewhat in the next film, but in general, I don't find their romance much fun. It's all quite staid, and just going through the motions for me.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,609
    Everyone says that but I don’t really get it, I think they work fine as a couple.
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