Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 1,773
    Licence to Kill: People talking



    Goldeneye People talking


  • Posts: 4,920
    Might just be me, but I think the GE clip looks noticeably better (it’s less stagey, makes better use of camera angles/movement, and the lighting is much more accomplished). Both are good scenes though.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,594
    I actually thought that was the point Deke was making until I looked back in the thread: yes, that GE scene is notably more dynamic (as you say, actual camera movement, use of depth of field, close-ups etc.) and the lighting is much more atmospheric and less flat. I don't think either are bad though.
  • edited March 25 Posts: 1,773
    Sure, GE have shadows but they could have shot it in my living room and it wouldn't have made any difference.

    In LTK you have wider shots, you feel the space, the characters.

  • edited March 25 Posts: 4,920
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play at times. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place, as good as the design is). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.
  • Posts: 1,773
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.
  • edited March 25 Posts: 4,920
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)
  • Posts: 1,773
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)

    Don't worry, I think the same about you too. ;)
  • edited March 25 Posts: 4,920
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)

    Don't worry, I think the same about you too. ;)

    I think we just disagree on which we prefer, which is fine and that's the nature of a discussion :) But the only reason I'm saying I don't think you know much about film language is what you wrote about 'the screen being very large' (which is a strange way of describing a wide angle anyway and inaccurate) and how that means you don't 'need close ups' (close ups are simply a shot choice like any other, and how they're used and edited into the film is a more often a creative choice rather than a practical one).

    It's not me trying to be too snarky - not everyone works in filmmaking or thinks about this stuff often even if they're film fans. But like I said agree to disagree.
  • Posts: 1,773
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)

    Don't worry, I think the same about you too. ;)

    I think we just disagree on which we prefer, which is fine and that's the nature of a discussion :) But the only reason I'm saying I don't think you know much about film language is what you wrote about 'the screen being very large' (which is a strange way of describing a wide angle anyway and inaccurate) and how that means you don't 'need close ups' (close ups are simply a shot choice like any other, and how they're used and edited into the film is a more often a creative choice rather than a practical one).

    It's not me trying to be too snarky - not everyone works in filmmaking or thinks about this stuff often even if they're film fans. But like I said agree to disagree.

    Sure, close ups exist and people use them. It's a choice as much as "flat lighting".

  • edited March 25 Posts: 4,920
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)

    Don't worry, I think the same about you too. ;)

    I think we just disagree on which we prefer, which is fine and that's the nature of a discussion :) But the only reason I'm saying I don't think you know much about film language is what you wrote about 'the screen being very large' (which is a strange way of describing a wide angle anyway and inaccurate) and how that means you don't 'need close ups' (close ups are simply a shot choice like any other, and how they're used and edited into the film is a more often a creative choice rather than a practical one).

    It's not me trying to be too snarky - not everyone works in filmmaking or thinks about this stuff often even if they're film fans. But like I said agree to disagree.

    Sure, close ups exist and people use them. It's a choice as much as "flat lighting".

    Well yes, everything's a choice, even if the flat lighting or close ups are for more practical than creative reasons. Or indeed vice versa. What we're discussing is which one sets the tone and tells the story visually more effectively, and to some extent which is more visually appealing (not necessarily which is prettier). Personally I find GE much more atmospheric in that way and better shot.
  • edited March 25 Posts: 1,773
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)

    Don't worry, I think the same about you too. ;)

    I think we just disagree on which we prefer, which is fine and that's the nature of a discussion :) But the only reason I'm saying I don't think you know much about film language is what you wrote about 'the screen being very large' (which is a strange way of describing a wide angle anyway and inaccurate) and how that means you don't 'need close ups' (close ups are simply a shot choice like any other, and how they're used and edited into the film is a more often a creative choice rather than a practical one).

    It's not me trying to be too snarky - not everyone works in filmmaking or thinks about this stuff often even if they're film fans. But like I said agree to disagree.

    Sure, close ups exist and people use them. It's a choice as much as "flat lighting".

    Well yes, everything's a choice, even if the flat lighting or close ups are for more practical than creative reasons. What we're discussing is which one sets the tone and tells the story visually more effectively, and to some extent which is more visually appealing (not necessarily which is prettier). Personally I find GE much more atmospheric in that way and better shot.

    Yeah, that's my point too. We see the space and we see the characters. The scene breathes.

  • edited March 25 Posts: 4,920
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    But space or wider angles aren't inherently cinematic... in fact in LTK's case I'd argue it gives a very 'stagey' impression (more like we're watching a play. We also get more of a sense that this is a set and not an actual place). It's actually more common with older TV movies or Soap Operas, which I think is why the claim is made that LTK can come off as cheaper looking.

    Oh, they are. When the screen is very large, you don't need so many close-ups. It's true that there are trends and styles and it is not a rule set in stone but neither is it that it is more cinematic for having more shadows.

    Hmm... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of this then. I don't get the sense you know much about film language :)

    Don't worry, I think the same about you too. ;)

    I think we just disagree on which we prefer, which is fine and that's the nature of a discussion :) But the only reason I'm saying I don't think you know much about film language is what you wrote about 'the screen being very large' (which is a strange way of describing a wide angle anyway and inaccurate) and how that means you don't 'need close ups' (close ups are simply a shot choice like any other, and how they're used and edited into the film is a more often a creative choice rather than a practical one).

    It's not me trying to be too snarky - not everyone works in filmmaking or thinks about this stuff often even if they're film fans. But like I said agree to disagree.

    Sure, close ups exist and people use them. It's a choice as much as "flat lighting".

    Well yes, everything's a choice, even if the flat lighting or close ups are for more practical than creative reasons. What we're discussing is which one sets the tone and tells the story visually more effectively, and to some extent which is more visually appealing (not necessarily which is prettier). Personally I find GE much more atmospheric in that way and better shot.

    Yeah, that's my point too. We see the space and we see the characters. The scene breathes.

    Well then, I suppose we'll see how many people prefer the GE or LTK scene if they want to continue the conversation.

    If that's how you feel about the scene that's fine. Ultimately we can only go from how we feel watching films, and we all have our preferences. Again, I like the LTK one, but for me personally it can feel a bit stagey, which doesn't quite accentuate the tension of the scene, even if we see more of the space and it 'breathes'. I don't think it tells the story as effectively as it could. I'm more engrossed in the GE scene in large part due to the atmospheric visuals and the fact that it feels more real to me (the fact that's it's darker/has tighter shots is, in my opinion, much better for the mood). But we're all different.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,594
    The GE one is more atmospheric and cinematic for my money.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,459
    Alec Mills lights the scenes as if they’re still in the 1960s on a shoe string budget with no time for set ups. Way too many hot lights on the set and actors, and at a time when film exposure had become more sensitive that you don’t need such heavy lighting. Contrast that to how Jan de Bont lit this scene:

  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    edited March 27 Posts: 62
    The GE scene is better shot but it makes more
    sense to be. Valentin exists in a dirty dive bar dealing with dodgy crackpot arms-dealers whereas Sanchez's office is part of an opulent casino, and is later shown to host events.

    It makes zero sense to darken the atmos at Che Franz but perfect sense at Val's.

    GE's scene gets the nod for me, but for a more superficial reason: Bond's hair.

    Gel is not your friend, Timbo, and the party has gone on too long at the back.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,778
    The GE scene is better shot but it makes more
    sense to be. Valentin exists in a dirty dive bar dealing with dodgy crackpot arms-dealers whereas Sanchez's office is part of an opulent casino, and is later shown to host events.

    It makes zero sense to darken the atmos at Che Franz but perfect sense at Val's.

    Yep.
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