Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 1,948
    Heyman and Pascal now officially the producers....................why would they not want to work with Cauron?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 25 Posts: 8,778
    delfloria wrote: »
    Heyman and Pascal now officially the producers....................why would they not want to work with Cauron?

    This make Cuaron all the more likely to happen.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited March 25 Posts: 14,111
    If only he were simply agitated. He's completely off the reservation in that scene, nothing about him there tallies up with how Bond is shown elsewhere in NTTD or the other Craig films. His speech, mannerisms... it's as if we are watching a different character entirely.

    Craig was already checked out.
    If only he were simply agitated. He's completely off the reservation in that scene, nothing about him there tallies up with how Bond is shown elsewhere in NTTD or the other Craig films. His speech, mannerisms... it's as if we are watching a different character entirely.

    Completely accurate. Never before has a Bond actor broke character that much to where they feel as if they’re playing someone else entirely. Even Roger Moore didn’t do that.

    Exactly.



    It really is the most unintentionally bizarre scenes in all of Bond. I'm wincing just watching it, it's really that bad. "Die, Blofeld, Die" sounds so awful.
  • Posts: 6,811
    I put it up there with the parasailing-the-tsunami scene, or the yo-momma line, as the most cringeworthy scenes in the history of Bond. But the film is full of it. The scene at M's office stands out as another hideously written piece. NTTD has a brilliant opening scene, beautifully shot and choreographed, but that's about it, IMO. But hey, I'm hoping for new, better writers for the next one.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,734
    The Blofeld scene in NTTD, is one of the examples were NTTD just didn't feel right to me on first viewing. Everything about that scene and the M scene felt wrong to me.

    I love Daniel as Bond, but his performance was more like Benoit Blanc than Bond at times. Some of his line deliveries were odd to say the least, it's like he was trying to hard to be funny. Which is partly the writing and partly his acting choice, most of these occur in the London scenes.

    "happy birthday by the way"
    "You can imagine why I've come back to play"
    "That's not gooooood"
  • Posts: 6,811
    Awful writing, awful acting. Love Craig, but he was at his worse in his last outing.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,897
    Mallory wrote: »
    As per the book:[/i]
    007HallY wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    His performance in NTTD was very erratic; at times it was spot on , while at other times it was as if he was in a different film and portraying a different character.

    I agree. I thought he was great in the pre-credit sequence, then, after the title song was whispered, and he called M "darling", well. . .

    The scene with Blofeld was ridiculous. Who was he supposed to be playing there?

    I actually found Bond calling M darling quite funny! It’s the sort of power move that Bond would play, petty as it is.

    Bond and M's relationship is another element of NTTD I am not too keen on. It's a repeat of the first half of Spectre, which I dont like either, in that Bond doesnt really respect Mallory's M, and is quite a dick towards him - overly hostile and showing no respect for their position. It's quite a contrast to the events of Skyfall and how it is set up for them. Bond and M may have respectfully disagreed with each other previously but they were never outright hostile to each other.

    Right, the hostility in Spectre is silly, and in NTTD it just gets old. I like how they come around to each other but I want to get back to Bond respecting M in a way that's respectful of his authority and almost like a father figure.

    I blame that on MGW, BB, Purvis and Wade. It seemed to be their main trademark in their pairing. Hopefully, that will change with the new producers.
  • edited March 26 Posts: 693
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    The Blofeld scene in NTTD, is one of the examples were NTTD just didn't feel right to me on first viewing. Everything about that scene and the M scene felt wrong to me.

    I love Daniel as Bond, but his performance was more like Benoit Blanc than Bond at times. Some of his line deliveries were odd to say the least, it's like he was trying to hard to be funny. Which is partly the writing and partly his acting choice, most of these occur in the London scenes.

    "happy birthday by the way"
    "You can imagine why I've come back to play"
    "That's not gooooood"
    Yeah, I have to admit the hand gesturing felt very Benoit Blanc. It's like I'm watching Knives Out.

    My personal feelings with NTTD is that there were fresh elements (Nomi, Paloma, Cuba), being dragged down by leftovers from the Mendes movies (Blofeld, Madeleine, etc), so it ends up being kind of a mixed bag for me, and that scene is definitely of part of that. I guess now we don't have to worry about those elements with a clean slate.
  • Was getting through NTTD before having to stop and yeah the interview isn't good.

    Craig's "But then it all went wroooonnngg, didn't it," is on par with Brosnan's worst in TWINE. There's also the bit where he goes "If YOU tell ME." Even though Bond's trying to drum up confidence I think Craig does take it a little too far.
  • I always see a lot of people dismiss Brosnan’s performance in TWINE and I always wonder if we’re watching the same movie. If that’s their opinion then who am I to argue against it but I’ve never found any issue with Pierce in that film - it arguably features some of his best moments as Bond.
  • I always see a lot of people dismiss Brosnan’s performance in TWINE and I always wonder if we’re watching the same movie. If that’s their opinion then who am I to argue against it but I’ve never found any issue with Pierce in that film - it arguably features some of his best moments as Bond.

    It's not bad but there are some lines that are delivered in an awkward way. A bit like the pain face. Brosnan's obviously trying to act out pain there but it's still funny. The one that jumps out most prominently is the "Huh!" when Renard repeats Elektra's motto. There's also the "knew about my shhhoulder, exactly where to huurrrt me." It's exactly like Craig here, over-dramatically dragging out words, crazy hand gestures and the whole lot.

    I'm relatively OK with the rest of the performance.
  • edited March 26 Posts: 2,466
    I always see a lot of people dismiss Brosnan’s performance in TWINE and I always wonder if we’re watching the same movie. If that’s their opinion then who am I to argue against it but I’ve never found any issue with Pierce in that film - it arguably features some of his best moments as Bond.

    It's not bad but there are some lines that are delivered in an awkward way. A bit like the pain face. Brosnan's obviously trying to act out pain there but it's still funny. The one that jumps out most prominently is the "Huh!" when Renard repeats Elektra's motto. There's also the "knew about my shhhoulder, exactly where to huurrrt me." It's exactly like Craig here, over-dramatically dragging out words, crazy hand gestures and the whole lot.

    I'm relatively OK with the rest of the performance.

    I respect your opinion but I’ve personally never found any issue with it. As for the pain face - I’ve never been bothered by it. I’d probably be making that same face too if I had to endure what he goes through in these films 😆. If I had to criticize Pierce, it’d probably be for his portrayal’s love of necrophilia - I’m not sure whose idea that was but two films of it is enough thank you very much.

    Still for my money, the single most embarrassing moment from any Bond actor is Connery’s “torture” sequence in Thunderball; which was really just him dry humping a table with the footage sped up. Moore grabbing the asscheeks of a sumo wrestler in TMWTGG comes a close second.
  • Posts: 2,168
    As much as the Blofeld die scene bothers me, so does Craig's nose. The acting, the writing, and even his appearance all feel strangely out of sync. Rather than projecting strength, he comes across as impotent and begging. It's very uncharacteristic of a Bond.
  • Posts: 631
    CrabKey wrote: »
    As much as the Blofeld die scene bothers me, so does Craig's nose. The acting, the writing, and even his appearance all feel strangely out of sync. Rather than projecting strength, he comes across as impotent and begging. It's very uncharacteristic of a Bond.

    Exactly! That's the point of the scene. Despite Blofeld being in prison — he has the power here. Bond needs information from Blofeld on who attacked the Spectre party, information Bond thinks he can only get from Blofeld. Now this is mistaken as Dr. Swann also knows it, but in Bond's ego he doesn't think to ask her!

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,778
    It's just dawned on me that we're probably never going to go another 4 year period without a Bond film being released ever again, or not for a long time. Whatever happens in 30 years Bond 26 will be consider very special in the franchise because we had a complete wipe of the staff, and also because all the uncertainty and the insane build up and feverish anticipation to see whether Amazon could pull this thing off. We are watching history happen before our eyes.
  • Posts: 8,012
    I always see a lot of people dismiss Brosnan’s performance in TWINE and I always wonder if we’re watching the same movie. If that’s their opinion then who am I to argue against it but I’ve never found any issue with Pierce in that film - it arguably features some of his best moments as Bond.

    It's not bad but there are some lines that are delivered in an awkward way. A bit like the pain face. Brosnan's obviously trying to act out pain there but it's still funny. The one that jumps out most prominently is the "Huh!" when Renard repeats Elektra's motto. There's also the "knew about my shhhoulder, exactly where to huurrrt me." It's exactly like Craig here, over-dramatically dragging out words, crazy hand gestures and the whole lot.

    I'm relatively OK with the rest of the performance.

    Agreed,apart from the last line!! and You're forgetting the line "one last screw!" which is delivered like he's back in that restaurant choking scene in 'Mrs Doubtfire'😂
    My new irritant for Brossa, which I only copped lately, is that annoying smacking of his lips before he speaks! I can't not notice it now! Anyway, off topic!
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,354
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.
  • edited March 28 Posts: 6,811
    It's just dawned on me that we're probably never going to go another 4 year period without a Bond film being released ever again, or not for a long time. Whatever happens in 30 years Bond 26 will be consider very special in the franchise because we had a complete wipe of the staff, and also because all the uncertainty and the insane build up and feverish anticipation to see whether Amazon could pull this thing off. We are watching history happen before our eyes.

    I must say, your posts have been filled with hope as of late, ... and I like it. Thanks for that. Cheers
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    Yes, I have been having the same experience, my friend. I'd say, most of the concerns about Bond's role in the world and need for change, were home bred, and somewhat of an insecure panic in reaction to a media driven changing world.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,259
    Wow! Didn't realise so many don't like the Bond/Blofeld scene!

    I rather like it and don't find it jarring at all. I love the back and forth between them. The only fault i find with it is that silly contraption that Blofeld arrives in..!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,594
    Wow! Didn't realise so many don't like the Bond/Blofeld scene!

    I rather like it and don't find it jarring at all. I love the back and forth between them. The only fault i find with it is that silly contraption that Blofeld arrives in..!

    Yeah I genuinely find it baffling. Usually when I don't share the dislike of something I can at least see where it's stemming from, but this scene seems no different from those around it to me.
  • Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited March 28 Posts: 4,259
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'
  • Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.
  • Posts: 631
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.
  • BMB007 wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.

    In your opinion. Personally I found Craig’s era overall to be too depressing and too nihilistic - as evidenced by the decision to kill the character off. That’s not to say they’re “Bad” movies - but I’m just ready for a lighter take and it appears others are as well.
  • Posts: 631
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.

    In your opinion. Personally I found Craig’s era overall to be too depressing and too nihilistic - as evidenced by the decision to kill the character off. That’s not to say they’re “Bad” movies - but I’m just ready for a lighter take and it appears others are as well.

    That's not what nihilism means. Nihilism is, broadly, a belief in meaninglessness of life. There are no absolute values or worth. No Bond film is nihilistic because the foundation of the character is fighting for something. Bond's death in "No Time to Die" is the literal opposite of nihilism. He believes in love so much he gives his life for Dr. Swann.
  • edited March 29 Posts: 2,466
    BMB007 wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.

    In your opinion. Personally I found Craig’s era overall to be too depressing and too nihilistic - as evidenced by the decision to kill the character off. That’s not to say they’re “Bad” movies - but I’m just ready for a lighter take and it appears others are as well.

    That's not what nihilism means. Nihilism is, broadly, a belief in meaninglessness of life. There are no absolute values or worth. No Bond film is nihilistic because the foundation of the character is fighting for something. Bond's death in "No Time to Die" is the literal opposite of nihilism. He believes in love so much he gives his life for Dr. Swann.

    Broadly speaking Nihilism is the belief in the meaningless of life. But you left out that it also means the rejection of inherent truths and values as well as the rejection of conventional Moral behavior. Taking that into account - the character of Bond is the textbook definition of Nihilist; living for the moment - drinking and gambling - frequent casual sex - frequent killing. He’s always been portrayed as such but the Craig era really emphasizes those points in the stories they were trying to tell so much to where it’s marked by it. It’s why Silva, Blofeld, and Saffin are presented as mirror images of Bond - so that the filmmakers can comment on the Nihilistic subtext of the character and how far he could fall without his loyalty to Queen/County. Furthermore when the decision was made to kill off Bond - EON/the filmmakers actively rejected the one inherent truth/value that had defined the series since its inception - that James Bond never dies no matter what the villains put him through. You might disagree with that reading but that lines up with what Nihilism is defined as. So I think it’s a perfectly valid term to describe Craig’s tenure.

    Plus I’m not sure if you either ignored what I said earlier or may have missed it in your quest for a “gotcha” moment - but I said that because these films are marked by their Nihilistic tone - doesn’t mean they’re bad movies. It just means I want something lighter in tone. There shouldn’t any controversial or upsetting about that.
  • Posts: 631
    BMB007 wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.

    In your opinion. Personally I found Craig’s era overall to be too depressing and too nihilistic - as evidenced by the decision to kill the character off. That’s not to say they’re “Bad” movies - but I’m just ready for a lighter take and it appears others are as well.

    That's not what nihilism means. Nihilism is, broadly, a belief in meaninglessness of life. There are no absolute values or worth. No Bond film is nihilistic because the foundation of the character is fighting for something. Bond's death in "No Time to Die" is the literal opposite of nihilism. He believes in love so much he gives his life for Dr. Swann.

    Broadly speaking Nihilism is the belief in the meaningless of life. But you left out that it also means the rejection of inherent truths and values as well as the rejection of conventional Moral behavior. Taking that into account - the character of Bond is the textbook definition of Nihilist; living for the moment - drinking and gambling - frequent casual sex - frequent killing. He’s always been portrayed as such but the Craig era really emphasizes those points in the stories they were trying to tell so much to where it’s marked by it. It’s why Silva, Blofeld, and Saffin are presented as mirror images of Bond - so that the filmmakers can comment on the Nihilistic subtext of the character and how far he could fall without his loyalty to Queen/County. Furthermore when the decision was made to kill off Bond - EON/the filmmakers actively rejected the one inherent truth/value that had defined the series since its inception - that James Bond never dies no matter what the villains put him through. You might disagree with that reading but that lines up with what Nihilism is defined as. So I think it’s a perfectly valid term to describe Craig’s tenure.

    Plus I’m not sure if you either ignored what I said earlier or may have missed it in your quest for a “gotcha” moment - but I said that because these films are marked by their Nihilistic tone - doesn’t mean they’re bad movies. It just means I want something lighter in tone. There shouldn’t any controversial or upsetting about that.

    Focusing just on the Craig films — the foundational moment of the character is heartbreak because he thought he found something but then it wasn't true, so that sent him spiraling until he realized that isn't the way to live. If anything, the arc of the character textually rejects nihilism.

    Even if we extend it to the Fleming novel, the contradiction of the character — he does this dark job but he hates it — is the opposite of nihilism.

    I'm not looking for a "gotcha". You made a claim that was based on inaccuracies and misreadings. If you want lighter movies, just say you want lighter movies. That's fine!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,594
    BMB007 wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.

    In your opinion. Personally I found Craig’s era overall to be too depressing and too nihilistic - as evidenced by the decision to kill the character off. That’s not to say they’re “Bad” movies - but I’m just ready for a lighter take and it appears others are as well.

    That's not what nihilism means. Nihilism is, broadly, a belief in meaninglessness of life. There are no absolute values or worth. No Bond film is nihilistic because the foundation of the character is fighting for something. Bond's death in "No Time to Die" is the literal opposite of nihilism. He believes in love so much he gives his life for Dr. Swann.

    Broadly speaking Nihilism is the belief in the meaningless of life. But you left out that it also means the rejection of inherent truths and values as well as the rejection of conventional Moral behavior. Taking that into account - the character of Bond is the textbook definition of Nihilist; living for the moment - drinking and gambling - frequent casual sex - frequent killing. He’s always been portrayed as such but the Craig era really emphasizes those points in the stories they were trying to tell so much to where it’s marked by it. It’s why Silva, Blofeld, and Saffin are presented as mirror images of Bond - so that the filmmakers can comment on the Nihilistic subtext of the character and how far he could fall without his loyalty to Queen/County. Furthermore when the decision was made to kill off Bond - EON/the filmmakers actively rejected the one inherent truth/value that had defined the series since its inception - that James Bond never dies no matter what the villains put him through. You might disagree with that reading but that lines up with what Nihilism is defined as. So I think it’s a perfectly valid term to describe Craig’s tenure.

    Plus I’m not sure if you either ignored what I said earlier or may have missed it in your quest for a “gotcha” moment - but I said that because these films are marked by their Nihilistic tone - doesn’t mean they’re bad movies. It just means I want something lighter in tone. There shouldn’t any controversial or upsetting about that.

    Focusing just on the Craig films — the foundational moment of the character is heartbreak because he thought he found something but then it wasn't true, so that sent him spiraling until he realized that isn't the way to live. If anything, the arc of the character textually rejects nihilism.

    Even if we extend it to the Fleming novel, the contradiction of the character — he does this dark job but he hates it — is the opposite of nihilism.

    I'm not looking for a "gotcha". You made a claim that was based on inaccuracies and misreadings. If you want lighter movies, just say you want lighter movies. That's fine!

    Great post!
  • edited March 29 Posts: 2,466
    BMB007 wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    I was talking to some work colleagues yesterday regarding the future of Bond. All of them are women in their 30’s - 50’s.
    I was shocked when they (3 of them) all said they’d be happy to see the Bond of old.
    Womanising, bedding multiple women, giving a quip when he’s killed someone and being cool.
    I really didn’t expect such comments, I asked about the womanising and having multiple women, and they said, but that’s part of Bond.
    They aren’t offended by it.
    They did say they enjoyed the big bright clothes and makeup from the 60’s 70’s and 80’s Bond films. So I hope they don’t want a period film for Bond 26, but it was a real eye opener as to how non-fans see Bond.

    I’m not surprised to see people clamoring for the return of “Classic Bond.” Maybe it’s just a natural reaction after how dark things skewed during Craig’s tenure or a reaction to much subversive Craig’s era was overall - but I do think it’s time to bring back some of the whimsical fun that made the earlier films so special.

    But what do you mean by 'Classic Bond...?' FRWL? YOLT? Both pretty different to each other as OHMSS and DAF are. A return to Brosnan type Bond films..?

    For me Casino Royale 06 is 'classic Bond'

    CR is a classic - as if Skyfall. But largely I meant a return to Bond films that were fun first and foremost - not dark and nihilistic.

    No Bond film is nihilistic.

    In your opinion. Personally I found Craig’s era overall to be too depressing and too nihilistic - as evidenced by the decision to kill the character off. That’s not to say they’re “Bad” movies - but I’m just ready for a lighter take and it appears others are as well.

    That's not what nihilism means. Nihilism is, broadly, a belief in meaninglessness of life. There are no absolute values or worth. No Bond film is nihilistic because the foundation of the character is fighting for something. Bond's death in "No Time to Die" is the literal opposite of nihilism. He believes in love so much he gives his life for Dr. Swann.

    Broadly speaking Nihilism is the belief in the meaningless of life. But you left out that it also means the rejection of inherent truths and values as well as the rejection of conventional Moral behavior. Taking that into account - the character of Bond is the textbook definition of Nihilist; living for the moment - drinking and gambling - frequent casual sex - frequent killing. He’s always been portrayed as such but the Craig era really emphasizes those points in the stories they were trying to tell so much to where it’s marked by it. It’s why Silva, Blofeld, and Saffin are presented as mirror images of Bond - so that the filmmakers can comment on the Nihilistic subtext of the character and how far he could fall without his loyalty to Queen/County. Furthermore when the decision was made to kill off Bond - EON/the filmmakers actively rejected the one inherent truth/value that had defined the series since its inception - that James Bond never dies no matter what the villains put him through. You might disagree with that reading but that lines up with what Nihilism is defined as. So I think it’s a perfectly valid term to describe Craig’s tenure.

    Plus I’m not sure if you either ignored what I said earlier or may have missed it in your quest for a “gotcha” moment - but I said that because these films are marked by their Nihilistic tone - doesn’t mean they’re bad movies. It just means I want something lighter in tone. There shouldn’t any controversial or upsetting about that.

    Focusing just on the Craig films — the foundational moment of the character is heartbreak because he thought he found something but then it wasn't true, so that sent him spiraling until he realized that isn't the way to live. If anything, the arc of the character textually rejects nihilism.

    You just actively admitted that for a vast majority of the Craig era the character embraces Nihilism up until the very end - he’s actively nihilistic before he meets Vesper so her death isn’t the foundation for his nihilistic views - so you proved my point. That fundamentally the character of Bond is a Nihilist and the Craig films really hammered home this point. Largely speaking, I don’t care about the arc of Bond finally rejecting nihilism - I care about the filmmakers ignoring the fact that Bond is supposed to be a mythical archetype - and choosing to put the character through the most Nihilistic of circumstances in the films just to come across as darker and more mature. So when I say Craig’s tenure is dark and nihilistic, it’s very much accurate. Rejecting Bond’s “Invulnerability” in favor of killing him off is an actively “Nihilistic” statement on part of the filmmakers.
    BMB007 wrote: »
    Even if we extend it to the Fleming novel, the contradiction of the character — he does this dark job but he hates it — is the opposite of nihilism.

    Last I checked doing something you hate has nothing to do with the concepts of nihilism. Everyone hates their job but they still do it. Does that make them Nihilists? No because everyone for the most part still accepts conventional moral behavior unlike Nihilists. I’d say the fact that Bond DOES engage in his dark job is pretty exemplary of his Nihilistic outlook on life. He doesn’t like killing - but does it anyways because he’s good at it. The whole point behind the character of Bond is that he’s every bit as bad at the people he’s facing - he just happens to work on the side called “good!” There’s elements of existentialism to him as well, but largely speaking he’s very much Nihilistic - that’s why he has the vices he has.
    BMB007 wrote: »
    I'm not looking for a "gotcha". You made a claim that was based on inaccuracies and misreadings. If you want lighter movies, just say you want lighter movies. That's fine!

    No you definitely were looking for a “gotcha” moment - if you weren’t you wouldn’t have felt the need to correct me on the use of Nihilism - which was used pretty accurately I’d say. If you want to claim my arguments are inaccurate or misreading then fine - you can keep thinking that. I’ve provided plenty of reason for why I think those films are rather nihilistic - and if you want to keep ignoring my points while saying I’m wrong then feel free - you’re not really doing a great job at proving me wrong.

    On a larger note, I’ve noticed a lot of push-back against any attempts to criticize Craig’s tenure by fans of his era - most of which is done with a sort of “smugness” to imply that the people criticizing those films don’t know what they’re talking about. I can understand being annoyed at hearing your favorite films criticized - but the Craig era is 4 years behind us. If some folks are unable to accept that some people had issues with the films then they’re truly lost - as it paints them as people who are unable to accept that other people have differing opinions than they do - and ultimately kind of makes them look like jerks in the end when they have to resort to acting smug to get their point across.

    And thank you making me hate saying/typing “Nihilism” now.
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