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Exactly @haserot, this is not an exact science. And even exact sciences are subjective and are many times (most really) a question of "gut feeling". And it has nothing to do with musical education to like a certain music/musician or not, that is what I was trying to show him because I think deep inside he feels like he's opinion is more valid because he "knows more", as if only those without formal classical background could like Arnold.
Generally speaking do I like Newman's work more than Arnold's? Yes. Do I find Newman a more complete composer than Arnold? Yes. Was I impressed by what we heard from Newman's Skyfall soundtrack? Not really! I'll reserve my final thoughts for after I listen to the whole soundtrack but right now Arnold stands as the second best composer of the series (only behind Barry) and his work in the last two films (mostly in CR) is up to par with some of Barry's work. City of Lovers stands firmly on my top 3 Bond tracks ever.
I suggest you be a man and not be intimidated be some intellectual comments.
i think what he is getting at, is if you think "so and so sucks" then fine - if you can back up your opinion with a "why i think he sucks" then fine... but when someone needs to constantly stuff their history and credentials down your throat as if to say "This is why I am right." then that gets really old really fast - because at the end of the day, it all still boils down to personal taste...... it's not being 'intimidated by intellectual comments'...
i personally have no problem with @seroxx 's opinion of Arnold, and i personally don't have an issue with his summary of Arnold's musical background and/or his supposed lack of talent.... that's his opinion, based on knowledge that he has learned from all his years of work - and that is fine......... but me, a simple little caveman over here - i can only make my decision based on what i hear.. and i know i don't have the degrees to back up my opinions on music - but to me, Arnold is just fine... and at the end of the day - to myself, thats the only opinion that matters..
Thank you Anon for calling me snobbish; I feel honored because both Ian Fleming and his James Bond are snobs, so I can't imagine better company ;-);
I didn't know, this is mostly populated by teens here, I thought it's mixed. I also don't really see the point in "i like", "i don't like", "what's the best/worst" because who cares about endless counting of what one likes or not? How about "what is it exactly" and "why is it" and "why I like it exactly"?
Now, for everybody who can read notes, plays piano and adores DA, I will post a short manual "Compose like DA and have fun!" soon :-) .
Yes, City of lovers and another 2 Vesper/Solange - related tracks are really beautiful stuff, I agree. There is a lot of inspired stuff in QOS as well, which I also enjoyed a lot.
I apologize to anybody who feels offended with any knowledge, I could say "Ignorance is bliss" here, but i won't because it's not correct. Most of my musically educated colleges would have a similar issue with DA but nobody would post here because they're not such Bond Fans or for any other reason. I needed 10 years to finally write this somewhere and I did it, although unsure if this is a right place. As it seems, it probably isn't, but voila, it's here now.
I will take away my part-CV, this is not a topic about me and it was a personal answer to Sandy who asked me about where I came from.
Topic's name is "The music of David Arnold" so I wrote about his music to the people that might be interested. That's all.
Thank you for reading! :-)
good for you..
knowledge doesn't offend - neither does learning something new.... but to have one's intelligence feel offended by someone constantly smacking you in the face with their "knowledge" - well then, thats a horse of a different color..
Hear, hear. Stargate and some parts of CR also ranks up there, IMO.
Hope he will return for Bond 23.
you mean Skyfall??? 8-}
lol
NO listen to your subconcious it knows best. :D
To me, Arnold composing for a Bond film is like Mike Meyers acting in a comedy. Some stuff he does is great, other stuff is total garbage. Because of that he works best when someone has the balls to stand up to him and say "Sorry, Mike, but that's not funny. It might be an interesting challenge for you but it isn't fun for the audience to watch."
With Arnold, he has the ability to compose some great tracks but to me he has only once produced a good Bond soundtrack - for CR. His soundtrack having many cues based on both the title song and City of Lovers ("Vesper's theme") give the soundtrack and the film an independent identity and recognizable personality. The fact the music carries on from the title song means that all through the film you know that you're watching CR and not another Arnold-scored Bond film, in much the same way that Barry's tracks all sounded like they belonged to each individual film. While some tracks in CR may sound like "filler" to some I think that they work well when watching the film, and there are some nice melodies. A huge improvement over the scattered soundtracks that Arnold had done previously and light-years away from his techno-and-Bond-theme (four times in the first half hour!) score to TND.
I thought that QoS was a disappointment - some great tracks, some of his best melodies and themes, but it didn't have the cohesiveness that CR did. I think that if Arnold was working with someone else he could produce great soundtracks. Arnold comes up with the music, then someone else figures out which pieces to use, which themes to repeat, and then stitches them into a cohesive film and audio experience.
Of course, the obvious thought is why pay someone to babysit/tutor Arnold when there are several composers who could do the job on their own?
I was preparing a long and acid answer to your comment but I don't think you are worth it. I'll just say the following:
1-Being called a snob shouldn't make you feel honoured unless you have serious defects of character;
2-No one here was offended by knowledge but no one likes someone who brags. You seem to be saying "Behold my superior knowledge of music and knee before me!"
3-You think not agreeing with your opinion indicates musical ignorance. Sorry to disappoint you but you're wrong, it's just a matter of taste.
4-I think there was a "slightly" disagreeable innuendo directed at me (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't know if it was because you felt a menace in me or what. I was trying to be nice with you but you were quite low. I don't adore Arnold in case you didn't notice, I just don't think he has done some good things. So please, show off your "superior knowledge" and do us the favour of writing that little manual you promised! That is, of course, if you can.
You may be interested to know that while I had the knowledge to transcribe my compositions into sheet music, I never handed my band mates a single piece of paper. Like Mozart, every part was first heard and written in my head. They were damn fine musicians as good or better than I was in terms of playing ability and to lord my knowledge over them would have been both pointless and insulting. I showed them what I wanted and if they had a more creative idea, I welcomed it. So with all due respect, I submit this in the spirit of reconciliation and understanding.
The only time I disliked Arnold's efforts were when he used too much techno rythms in Die Another Day, but even there, some of his stuff was pretty good.
@Sandy : it was not pointed at you. Thank you for being nice. My posts were not pointed at you or you alone, why are you taking them personally? Why do you feel so offended? Also, if you read what you wrote like
"no one likes someone who brags"
you'll notice that you write in the name of other people which I don't feel to be correct way, because it's what you feel, not everybody else. I don't think everybody feels that I brag. I for myself don't. Maybe it's the language thing - English is not my native language.
"...but I don't think you are worth it"
is really not nice at all. I don't talk to anybody in this forum like this. I don't understand where is this coming from.
"You think not agreeing with your opinion indicates musical ignorance."
That's completely untrue. First, it's not about my opinion, but technical terms. Second, you misunderstood what I wanted to say: it's really easier to write thousand times "it's crap" - no one reacts to that because that's obviously a most common language here, isn't it? But if I put some technical terms for something, I am supposed-to-be "snobbish".
By the way, I don't use "crap", it has no technical meaning for anything in any scientific discussion, does it ? But if someone wants to write "crap" I am not attacking that person for it.
"Sorry to disappoint you but you're wrong, it's just a matter of taste."
Sorry to dissapoint your dissapointment, but I disagree about that. Isn't democracy a nice thing? I am sorry and you are sorry.
"because you felt a menace in me"
I don't understand what you mean.
@Sandy & @SirHenryLeeChaChing
My own writing about snobbery is of course a joke and an answer @haserot's notice that I am snobbish. I am of course not a snob and also have no practical wish to defend myself against haserot's assumptions because that's impossible. He has a right on his opinion as I have on mine.
I don't consider having a "superior music knowledge" but there are in fact Music Colleges in every city in Europe. They are high educational facilities like any other universities, where people study music in most versatile ways, like other people studying medicine somewhere else. People who get their degrees there are capable to describe David Arnold's composition processes by their names. What's wrong with that? Again, I didn't mean to irritate anybody and cause a giant discussion about me. What's going on here?
I can not write a music theory manuals here (try wikipedia, please), but some of the stuff I wrote someone will understand, someone will not. It's impossible to formulate it differently without writing a small book here, therefore I apologize for not doing that.
@Sandy, yes the short DA fun-manual is coming, i just have to have a time to make a right concept for it. It will consider most often used harmonic technique of DA for all of his action cues since he took over.
@whoever
I am sorry for saying so but I disagree with a lot of people about a "taste" argument. If it only would be a matter of "taste", I suppose there would be no artistic colleges and universities where one can learn about "taste" and learn and form "taste". For my experience skill and talent are influencing and creating "taste".
As far I understand, this is a forum for Bond fans and a topic about DA's scores. Could we please write about that each in his own way, what we already do anyway and without attacking people for writing something in their own way? It would be nice, but if you like to attack, nobody can forbid you to do so.
Greets to everyone
I am quite a fan of Arnold´s music, and at the end of the day, I absolutely agree with you there, the only thing that matters is do I enjoy the music or not. As I said, I think John Powell for instance knows tons of theory more than David Arnold, but I find his music boring. As by the way I find those of Barry´s scores boring that have no action cues in them, even though I acknowledge Barry´s prowess. I wouldn´t at all say that I concur with everything @seroxx is saying, but the guy at least knows rather well how to say things, and that enriches any debate forum.[/quote]
I´m not sure what the sense of that might be. Music is not only composition but also performance and production. If you disagree go ahead and try to copy AC/DC.
The guy is not getting attacked for saying Arnold is crap, it's because he states his as a fact based on the fact that he's a professional musician.
@seroxx
Why, let's see:
I was the only person here at the time saying I had studied music and that I played the piano. If it wasn't directed at me you have a strange way of making general comments in a particular way.
So, I begin writting a rather violent response but erase it a start from scratch because I didn't think you were worth such rage and I'm not being nice? Perhaps I should have written in afterall!
There you go again!
Let me just say this for the last time. There a only a handfull of people in this forum who actually understood your technical analysis of David Arnold's music, for the rest you could be speaking Swahili that it would make no difference. In my view that served only one purpose, to show your opinion (and I stress this word) is more valid than that of the others. When I talk to people who are not in my area I don't use jargon, I try to explain things in a different way so that everyone can understand. It's the old science communication rule of thumb "Explain it in a way your grandmother would understand". So I challenge you to put your original comment in a way everybody here can understand so that everybody is actually able to discuss this matter with you.
I can't explain it simplier. That's why all those terms exist, for centuries. Ask mathematics professor to explain it without numbers and symbols.
You seem to not understand my joke about "compose like DA and have fun with it" - kit.
You think I wrote that to insult you. That was never my intention. I will post it for fun for whoever wants to experiment with it, not to insult people.
I think that's a good idea because someone who can play but didn't have opportunity to learn about mediants can have fun with it and make his/her own James Bond -like score in the style of DA at home. Without electronics, just substantial, on the piano. It has nothing to with you except the fact that you can play as well. I actually think it's great if someone was lucky in his life to learn to play an instrument.
On the end, I don't like your attitude towards me and I think it's enough from my part, it excceedes my personal "taste" to communicate. I would really like to help the situation but you have some problem with something I don't know what it is. Maybe it's the matter of your professional choices in life but I am not allowed to assume anything, I am not a psychologist. I seem to step somewhere where it hurt a lot. If I really did, I apologize.
The last thing I would like to state is that no one can act like a lawyer of 15000 people on this site including you. It doesn't make sense, it's internet.
Greets, Sandy, and have a nice day.
I like to read non-professional comments about Bond-music as well very much, especially if they don't say just "crap" :-)
Peace.
I'm not a theacher here. I don't do it for free and this is a discussion forum here, not a school.
Nevertheless, brilliant tv score!
I would have to agree that the electronic element got a little bit out of hand with 'Die Another Day' but then again that whole movie to me was a cartoon, the 'Batman and Robin' of the franchise.
Of course 'African Rundown' is an instant classic from CR, as well as 'Aston Montenegro', 'I'm The Money' and 'City of Lovers'. The Vesper theme is also particularly poignant by itself.
I personally liked the score for Quantum of Solace more than Casino Royale, because musically it was a little more developed and a little more complex. You had to listen to it several times to see where little quotes of the main theme came in, and it was less obvious than his previous efforts. Maybe that's a little too much work to do when you're watching the movie, but as a soundtrack I quite appreciated the depth it has.
Stand out tracks on that soundtrack for me were 'It's Time To Get Out', 'The Palio', and 'Oil Fields'.
Also Arnold stated in an interview that it was the one score which he didn't develop to the actual film from the get go, but had to develop thematically and in isolation at the request of the director Marc Forster, so maybe that's why it sounds a bit different.
http://www.cultbox.co.uk/blog/9204-sherlock-composer-david-arnold-discusses-his-influences-at-the-bfi
What interests me about the CR soundtrack is how often you hear something that reminds you of a previous Bond theme: SWLM, All Time High, the 007 theme. The soundtrack sounds new, but also familiar. You get a little of that in "Skyfall," but not enough.
Hopefully the producers will get back to the putting title song on the soundtrack, and using its melody more prominently in the film. As an instrumental Skyfall is nice, but used only once in the album is not enough.
'Surrender', 'The World is Not Enough' (and the unused song 'Only Myself to Blame', reprising the Elektra-material in the score), and especially 'No Good about Goodbye', developed for Shirley Bassey from a six-note motif in the Quantum of Solace score. Those are all bloody great songs which rival John Barry's efforts in that department.