Batman

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  • Posts: 3,333
    And yet Batman 89 had co-creator Bob Kane as creative consultant!!
  • If he killed originally but that was changed, isn't it the writers that changed that who didn't understand the character?
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 1,107
    Keaton's Batman:

    *Killed people (sometimes with a sadistic sile)
    *Let a woman he didn't even know into the batcave (thanks Alfred)
    *Took off his mask for literally no reason, exposing his identity
    *Comes up against guys with guns directly (duh!)
    *Endangered civilians with a plane he flew through Gotham with bullets firing at the Joker or sorry, Jack Nicholson doing a Joker impression. My bad, it's been a while.
    *He actually kills Joker, which Batman wouldn't do, even if he killed his parents.

    This kind of stuff is why I will never think Keaton is was or ever will be Batman in any shape or form.

    That no killing rule is really stupid. Come on, if you kill Joker, you're gonna save thousands of lifes.Actually in the comics Batman has killed... Especially in the early comics and the ones from the 80's depicting an older, angrier Bruce. In my mind this movie is genius because it shows us the super bitter, angry Batman. It shows an older Batman that failed to save the city he loves, and has become the very thing he fought against... It shows an emotionally unstable and psychologically unsound person lost in the world they created.Guy who dress as a giant bat is not normal that is what I like about Burton movies. Batman has a 70+ year history and that "rule" was first specified in Batman Year One (1987). So that means in majority of his existence Batman did not have that "rule". Regardless of the direction with Batman at the time he did kill a number of times in the silver age. It's called interpretations. In case you didn't know, there is so much more to Batman outside of the novels from the Frank Miller continuity.....

    Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty !
    Do you read the comics? Detective Comics 673, Batman forced Chill to commit suicide. Detective Comics 814 Batman blew up a building, knocked a goon off a large building and ran over a bunch of people. Batman/Doc Savage, Batman admitted his bullet most likely killed someone that was shot to death. Legends of TDK 84 Batman shot a villain with a handgun. Those are only a few examples of Batman killing in recent interpretations. Obviously you don't know as much as you think you know.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited December 2012 Posts: 13,978
    I'm not a Batman fan, not one of the comics in my collection is a Batman comic, though I have seen the films...

    1. Batman (1989)
    2. Batman Returns
    ----
    The rest.

    But at the end of the day...
    The Shadow > Batman

    B-)
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 4,813
    Batman killing people in the Burton movies does feel unfamiliar and wrong but I think they got away with it because in the original comics from the 40's Batman murdured the living shit out of people.
    I personally didn't mind Keaton killing a few of the bad guys. Joker killing his parents was just plain incorrect though.

    I read somewhere that Burton's Batman was not totally sane and imagined in his head that whoever he was fighting killed his parents. It's quite a stretch, but if you watch the movie with that in the back of your mind, it does work.
    If it's true though, they certainly didn't do a good job conveying it

    *btw I LOVE the shot of Batman smiling in that youtube clip above!!!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    If he killed originally but that was changed, isn't it the writers that changed that who didn't understand the character?

    Not if the original writer didn't know what the hell the character was about. Just because you created a character doesn't mean that everything the character did has to be the same in every continuation. Look at Bond. He has changed across various tellings. It just so happens that Fleming understood the character, while I think Finger and Kane didn't have that great a hold on what the hell they wanted to portray. It makes no sense at all for Bruce/Batman to kill when his own parents were taken from him with guns. Batman wouldn't be the magnificent symbol of justice he is today without Frank Miller's 80s work on top of the brilliant graphic novels and story lines put out by Denny O' Neill, Jeph Loeb, Paul Dini and Nolan. People that interpreted the character in a way that didn't contradict who he was and what he had been through.
  • Dalton12 wrote:
    Keaton's Batman:

    *Killed people (sometimes with a sadistic sile)
    *Let a woman he didn't even know into the batcave (thanks Alfred)
    *Took off his mask for literally no reason, exposing his identity
    *Comes up against guys with guns directly (duh!)
    *Endangered civilians with a plane he flew through Gotham with bullets firing at the Joker or sorry, Jack Nicholson doing a Joker impression. My bad, it's been a while.
    *He actually kills Joker, which Batman wouldn't do, even if he killed his parents.

    This kind of stuff is why I will never think Keaton is was or ever will be Batman in any shape or form.

    That no killing rule is really stupid. Come on, if you kill Joker, you're gonna save thousands of lifes.Actually in the comics Batman has killed... Especially in the early comics and the ones from the 80's depicting an older, angrier Bruce. In my mind this movie is genius because it shows us the super bitter, angry Batman. It shows an older Batman that failed to save the city he loves, and has become the very thing he fought against... It shows an emotionally unstable and psychologically unsound person lost in the world they created.Guy who dress as a giant bat is not normal that is what I like about Burton movies. Batman has a 70+ year history and that "rule" was first specified in Batman Year One (1987). So that means in majority of his existence Batman did not have that "rule". Regardless of the direction with Batman at the time he did kill a number of times in the silver age. It's called interpretations. In case you didn't know, there is so much more to Batman outside of the novels from the Frank Miller continuity.....

    Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty !
    Do you read the comics? Detective Comics 673, Batman forced Chill to commit suicide. Detective Comics 814 Batman blew up a building, knocked a goon off a large building and ran over a bunch of people. Batman/Doc Savage, Batman admitted his bullet most likely killed someone that was shot to death. Legends of TDK 84 Batman shot a villain with a handgun. Those are only a few examples of Batman killing in recent interpretations. Obviously you don't know as much as you think you know.

    I totally agree with dalton12 I see you are reading alot of comics dalton12.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    *btw I LOVE the shot of Batman smiling in that youtube clip above!!!

    Man, that was just so wrong.
    I love it too.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I'm not a Batman fan, not one of the comics in my collection is a Batman comic, though I have seen the films...

    1. Batman (1989)
    2. Batman Returns
    ----
    The rest.

    But at the end of the day...
    The Shadow > Batman

    B-)

    Very nicely put and to be honest the Dark knight did a lot of nicking of his story lines in the beginning of his comic life. And Nolan actualy borrowed so much from the last movie in his Batman Begins it can easily be said.................. THE SHADOW KNOWS

    I fully agree with your list on the movies.

    BUT

    I have quite a few Batman comics, even the Miller ones, but must admit that I like the older Batman comics before Miller quite a lot. One of my favorites is called "Night of the Hunter" which is the best Batman comic yet imho.



  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    And didn't he kill Liam Neeson at the end of Batman Begins?

    Not really. Batman says it himself, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." If anyone gets that kill it's Gordon. He's the one that blew up the railway bridge causing the death of Ra's Al Ghul.
  • Posts: 7,653
    a very funny review of TDKR

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Not really. Batman says it himself, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."
    That was an awesome moment.
  • The best scenes from 1989 batman :


  • Posts: 1,107
    And another thing.... what happened to Batman's rule when he shot Talia's driver to death in the end of The Dark Knight Rises with machine guns? He could've shot the tires flat, beat them to a pulp and save the day. And because of that it caused Talia Al Ghul to die as well. He also killed a number members of the LOS (as well as the prisoner he refused to murder) when he intentionally burned the house down. In the court of law that would be considered as murder. Almost killed cops as well.Maybe why I kinda like Batman Forever. It was drowned in cheese, but Kilmer was a deep Batman. He wanted not to kill and to not let Dick Grayson kill because he knows the dark place that killing takes you. He knows through experience that it is not the answer to one's quest for vengeance. Batman's arc in Returns suggests he has started to realize this.
  • Keaton's Batman was based on the Golden Age Batman, who did in fact kill.The Nolan trilogy is still HIGHLY overrated. Batman used to kill when he first started being batman he even used guns in the comics..
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 75


    wow i loved this scene.
  • Posts: 4,762
    Why are people so against Batman killing? I didn't even know he was against killing until I saw the Nolan films (although to be fair I haven't read the comics). And didn't he kill Liam Neeson at the end of Batman Begins?

    This brings up something intresting about the whole killing thing. Actually it says that in the comics he killed people for a while.

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-batman-always-wins/

    I have the first few original comics, including the original debut, first-ever Batman comic, and in these early ones he actually does murder people. During his first encounter with a thug, on a rooftop, he grabs the man and throws him off the roof, where the man hits the ground in a bloody mess. In the following comic, the second-ever, he chucks a bank robber off of the bank roof, where he falls several stories to his death. Yeah, Batman's roots were in murder, folks.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited December 2012 Posts: 28,694
    Just goes to show how contradictory Finger/Kane were with their own character. We have a man who lost his parents as a boy to a gun, and he spends his adult life bringing justice to the streets with the very same weapon that took what he loved away, making him no better than scum like Joe Chill. That's like being a claustrophobic detective who will only take a case if the victim is killed in a cramped alleyway or low roofed house. It contradicts everything the person is. It is thanks to men like Denny O' Neil, Frank Miller (then, not now), Jeph Loeb, Nolan/Goyer and Paul Dini who formed Batman into a character that made sense and was true to his ideals he held higher than anything.
  • Posts: 1,107
    Just goes to show how contradictory Finger/Kane were with their own character. We have a man who lost his parents as a boy to a gun, and he spends his adult life bringing justice to the streets with the very same weapon that took what he loved away, making him no better than scum like Joe Chill. That's like being a claustrophobic detective who will only take a case if the victim is killed in a cramped alleyway or low roofed house. It contradicts everything the person is. It is thanks to men like Denny O' Neil, Frank Miller (then, not now), Jeph Loeb, Nolan/Goyer and Paul Dini who formed Batman into a character that made sense and was true to his ideals he held higher than anything.

    Even in Nolan movies Batman Did kill for example Harvey Dent he pushed him to his death. it don't matter if he just shoved him and he tripped over his own shoes, Batman pushed him is what started the chain reaction to him dying. that would be like if pushed someone by a swiming pool and they stumbled and cracked there head and knocked themselves out...no deadly but say as they got knocked out they fell in the pool and drown...then i would have murdered someone. kind in the way Batman murdered dent.
    He would killed bane when he damaged his mask and he pushed Talia to her death and when he destroys that temple in Begins there were alot of people in there and he let them burn.
    Batman got some interesting logics he doesn't have to save Ras Al Ghul if it wasnt for Ras Al Ghul and his trainig he would maybe not be batman but he had to save the Joker? Batman says that he will never kill a person but does it every movie.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dalton12 wrote:
    Just goes to show how contradictory Finger/Kane were with their own character. We have a man who lost his parents as a boy to a gun, and he spends his adult life bringing justice to the streets with the very same weapon that took what he loved away, making him no better than scum like Joe Chill. That's like being a claustrophobic detective who will only take a case if the victim is killed in a cramped alleyway or low roofed house. It contradicts everything the person is. It is thanks to men like Denny O' Neil, Frank Miller (then, not now), Jeph Loeb, Nolan/Goyer and Paul Dini who formed Batman into a character that made sense and was true to his ideals he held higher than anything.

    Even in Nolan movies Batman Did kill for example Harvey Dent he pushed him to his death. it don't matter if he just shoved him and he tripped over his own shoes, Batman pushed him is what started the chain reaction to him dying. that would be like if pushed someone by a swiming pool and they stumbled and cracked there head and knocked themselves out...no deadly but say as they got knocked out they fell in the pool and drown...then i would have murdered someone. kind in the way Batman murdered dent.
    He would killed bane when he damaged his mask and he pushed Talia to her death and when he destroys that temple in Begins there were alot of people in there and he let them burn.
    Batman got some interesting logics he doesn't have to save Ras Al Ghul if it wasnt for Ras Al Ghul and his trainig he would maybe not be batman but he had to save the Joker? Batman says that he will never kill a person but does it every movie.

    I don't follow your logic.
  • Dalton12 wrote:
    Just goes to show how contradictory Finger/Kane were with their own character. We have a man who lost his parents as a boy to a gun, and he spends his adult life bringing justice to the streets with the very same weapon that took what he loved away, making him no better than scum like Joe Chill. That's like being a claustrophobic detective who will only take a case if the victim is killed in a cramped alleyway or low roofed house. It contradicts everything the person is. It is thanks to men like Denny O' Neil, Frank Miller (then, not now), Jeph Loeb, Nolan/Goyer and Paul Dini who formed Batman into a character that made sense and was true to his ideals he held higher than anything.

    Even in Nolan movies Batman Did kill for example Harvey Dent he pushed him to his death. it don't matter if he just shoved him and he tripped over his own shoes, Batman pushed him is what started the chain reaction to him dying. that would be like if pushed someone by a swiming pool and they stumbled and cracked there head and knocked themselves out...no deadly but say as they got knocked out they fell in the pool and drown...then i would have murdered someone. kind in the way Batman murdered dent.
    He would killed bane when he damaged his mask and he pushed Talia to her death and when he destroys that temple in Begins there were alot of people in there and he let them burn.
    Batman got some interesting logics he doesn't have to save Ras Al Ghul if it wasnt for Ras Al Ghul and his trainig he would maybe not be batman but he had to save the Joker? Batman says that he will never kill a person but does it every movie.

    I don't follow your logic.

    I don't follow your logic smart ass.
  • Posts: 1,107
    I would like to say he didn't break his rule, but he actually did. He didn't save Ras, which is fair enough, he saved a young boy by killing Dent, unintentionally (though he may have died from infection eventually anyway), both are questionable. What most people are forgetting is that in the first movie, when Bruce claims to not be an executioner, lets one man live (a thief) by causing an explosion, killing most of Ras Al Gul's men, and also killing the guy pretending to be Ras. The building exploded because of Bruce, we saw people die, so he technically broke his rule before putting on the mask.

    All that being said and done, if i was in his shoes, i wouldn't have changed anything he did, and deem them ok.
  • he fact that he didn't kill Ra by his own hands and saying he didn't kill him is a stupid excuse...Batman wanted him dead...he is a killer in BB too, he is responsible for his death cause he could have saved him easily and he knew he was going to die and its what he wanted. He is an avenger and a killer.

    If Batman is morally responsible for Ra's death because he could have saved him but didn't, he would also have been morally responsible for all the deaths that Ra's would go on to cause; after all, he could have saved them by letting Ra's die--but he didn't.

    The reason I like Batman more than other superheroes is that he never kills his enemies. He only knocks them unconscious. However, in the movie series, he is the reason behind the death of Ra's Al Ghul and Harvey Dent(apparently). He does mention his no guns policy to Catwoman once, but it doesn't change the fact that he indeed murdered some of his enemies. Batman says- Guns are evil, and then you show him roaming in 'The Bat' filled with weapons even Tony Stark would think twice before using.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    moore45 wrote:
    Dalton12 wrote:
    Just goes to show how contradictory Finger/Kane were with their own character. We have a man who lost his parents as a boy to a gun, and he spends his adult life bringing justice to the streets with the very same weapon that took what he loved away, making him no better than scum like Joe Chill. That's like being a claustrophobic detective who will only take a case if the victim is killed in a cramped alleyway or low roofed house. It contradicts everything the person is. It is thanks to men like Denny O' Neil, Frank Miller (then, not now), Jeph Loeb, Nolan/Goyer and Paul Dini who formed Batman into a character that made sense and was true to his ideals he held higher than anything.

    Even in Nolan movies Batman Did kill for example Harvey Dent he pushed him to his death. it don't matter if he just shoved him and he tripped over his own shoes, Batman pushed him is what started the chain reaction to him dying. that would be like if pushed someone by a swiming pool and they stumbled and cracked there head and knocked themselves out...no deadly but say as they got knocked out they fell in the pool and drown...then i would have murdered someone. kind in the way Batman murdered dent.
    He would killed bane when he damaged his mask and he pushed Talia to her death and when he destroys that temple in Begins there were alot of people in there and he let them burn.
    Batman got some interesting logics he doesn't have to save Ras Al Ghul if it wasnt for Ras Al Ghul and his trainig he would maybe not be batman but he had to save the Joker? Batman says that he will never kill a person but does it every movie.

    I don't follow your logic.

    I don't follow your logic smart ass.
    Watch your mouth and show some respect, child.

    007bond762 wrote:
    he fact that he didn't kill Ra by his own hands and saying he didn't kill him is a stupid excuse...Batman wanted him dead...he is a killer in BB too, he is responsible for his death cause he could have saved him easily and he knew he was going to die and its what he wanted. He is an avenger and a killer.

    If Batman is morally responsible for Ra's death because he could have saved him but didn't, he would also have been morally responsible for all the deaths that Ra's would go on to cause; after all, he could have saved them by letting Ra's die--but he didn't.

    The reason I like Batman more than other superheroes is that he never kills his enemies. He only knocks them unconscious. However, in the movie series, he is the reason behind the death of Ra's Al Ghul and Harvey Dent(apparently). He does mention his no guns policy to Catwoman once, but it doesn't change the fact that he indeed murdered some of his enemies. Batman says- Guns are evil, and then you show him roaming in 'The Bat' filled with weapons even Tony Stark would think twice before using.

    That's what I don't get. If you have the chance to save someone but don't you are completely responsible and in effect you have killed them? That makes no sense. Batman is in a monorail car going fast to a fiery death. Do you really think he is going to risk his hide AGAIN after saving the city again and again to help the man who burned down his home and threatened his life? Batman only had so much time to escape down to seconds, and he got out of there. That in no way makes him responsible for Ras's death. Same with Harvey. Batman tackled him, but it was by chance that Harvey didn't find a foothold or something to grab on, and he died. Batman managed to save Gordon's son, and that was the important thing, like saving Gotham over saving Ras (who put himself in that situation) was. I never view that as Batman killing. Ras would have happily died for a cause, just like Dent was a monster now and had nothing to live for after Rachel's death which he places on Dent and Batman. They would have done anything, killed anyone they needed to kill to satisfy their revenge, so it is better that they were stopped, no matter the circumstances. Joker wasn't the biggest problem here. He had his fun with the mob and murdering officials, but at the end of the day his biggest master plan was crafting Dent into the monster he becomes. Give a man a gun, wind him up and watch him go, in a way. He took a man who had become so ideal to the public and so symbolic of change, then made him like every criminal on the streets. That is the most dangerous plot and why Batman left to stop him. Catching Dent before he did what he aimed to do and out himself as a killer to Gotham was more important than Batman taking Joker in himself. He left that to the SWAT team, and went after Dent.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 4,813
    Excluding The Burton movies, I have no problem with any of the deaths that were caused by Bruce. Batman does have a code to 'not kill' but sometimes there isn't a choice. Also, there's a big difference between '1st degree murder' and '2nd degree murder'
    Take the scene from Batman Begins for example: Bruce blows up the whole place, killing Ra's al Ghul's double and countless others. But it wasn't 'because he didn't want to kill the thief' as I've heard the average joe claim; it was because of what the League of Shadows intended to do. He needed to act. I found what Bruce did very necessary.

    I think we can all agree that 1st Degree murder is what Batman avoids without question
    moore45 wrote:
    I don't follow your logic.
    I don't follow your logic smart ass.

    82959698.gif

  • Posts: 7,653
    there's a big difference between '1st degree murder' and '2nd degree murder'

    They have one thing in common that is the phrase "murder".

  • edited December 2012 Posts: 4,813
    SaintMark wrote:
    there's a big difference between '1st degree murder' and '2nd degree murder'
    They have one thing in common that is the phrase "murder".
    Well if you quote one lousy line then of course it looks good in your favor! Did you read the whole thing? [-( I think I'm making a pretty valid point- if anyone agrees, chime in
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited December 2012 Posts: 28,694
    SaintMark wrote:
    there's a big difference between '1st degree murder' and '2nd degree murder'
    They have one thing in common that is the phrase "murder".
    Well if you quote one lousy line then of course it looks good in your favor! Did you read the whole thing? [-( I think I'm making a pretty valid point- if anyone agrees, chime in

    I agree, @Master_Dahark, mostly because we both share a love of the same kind of Batman. As you said, there are times where there is no other way to go than kill. But Burton's Batman killed anyone, even random thugs that were no threat, and he enjoys it strangely. Nolan's Batman only takes serious action against dangers to Gotham. But I don't think Batman killed Ras or Dent, as I explained above. Same with Talia. Batman used the Bat to send minor explosives near the truck to stop its path so that the reactor could be stop, but Talia didn't stop until she ran over a barrier and killed herself in the crash (somehow Gordon lived). It is then that she dies for her cause as she was prepared to do all along (like her father) by destroying the reactor, leaving Batman to fly it out. He didn't drive her off the road, SHE did. He didn't put Ras in the subway and blow up the monorail supports, Ras got on the monorail himself and Batman had no hand in his death. Just because you don't save someone doesn't mean you are responsible for their death. And as I said, why would Bruce save him? Ras was evil, had set fire to his house and threatened Gotham's being. It makes no sense for Batman to save him. Same with setting fire to the monastery. Bruce caused the fire, but the other ninjas were stupid enough not to stay and instead fought. Their deaths are their own fault, not directly Bruce's.

    One scene that does bug me is in Batman Begins where Batman comes to save Rachel at Arkham. In the fight he grabs the arm of a gunman and as he points the man's arm down the ground a bullet sounds off and hits one man in the foot. Though it may be accidental, it just sticks out as something I don't think Batman would do (scuffle with armed men before disarming them in such a closed space).
  • Posts: 4,762
    I really do not have a problem with Batman being an occasional killer, because I have stated before, this is what Bob Kane envisioned from the get-go anyway. In the early comics, as I have mentioned previously, Batman throws mindless hoods off of buildings to their deaths, strangles an Indian henchman with a rope, shoots a Vampire to death, leaves a villain to perish in the flames of his own labratory accident, and even carries a holster for a pistol on a few occasions. I thought it was nice touch to see Tim Burton bring back the original roots; he didn't over-do it, I mean Batman still operated by an honorable code. Also, I really don't understand how it is disputed that Batman "killed" The Joker at the end of Batman 1989. The way I see it, he was just trying to stop the Joker from making it up to the helicopter long enough for him to be able to apprehend him, but gravity took its toll, as luck would have it. Still though, even if the intent was for Batman to murder The Joker, it was pretty epic the way he did it with that enraged scowl on his face as he pulled out the Batcable and roped Joker's legs to the gargoyle. Only Keaton could pull off something that cool!
  • Posts: 1,107
    00Beast wrote:
    I really do not have a problem with Batman being an occasional killer, because I have stated before, this is what Bob Kane envisioned from the get-go anyway. In the early comics, as I have mentioned previously, Batman throws mindless hoods off of buildings to their deaths, strangles an Indian henchman with a rope, shoots a Vampire to death, leaves a villain to perish in the flames of his own labratory accident, and even carries a holster for a pistol on a few occasions. I thought it was nice touch to see Tim Burton bring back the original roots; he didn't over-do it, I mean Batman still operated by an honorable code. Also, I really don't understand how it is disputed that Batman "killed" The Joker at the end of Batman 1989. The way I see it, he was just trying to stop the Joker from making it up to the helicopter long enough for him to be able to apprehend him, but gravity took its toll, as luck would have it. Still though, even if the intent was for Batman to murder The Joker, it was pretty epic the way he did it with that enraged scowl on his face as he pulled out the Batcable and roped Joker's legs to the gargoyle. Only Keaton could pull off something that cool!

    I agree good post.Joker he tried to prevent him from getting away and he died in the process, but I guess it's how you look at it. Theres no doubt about it he was looking for revenge against the Joker though.









    As much as I love the Dark Knight trilogy, this is still a classic. I'm also seeing where much of the inspiration for Batman: The Animated Series came from.
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