Who is more Fleming-esque? Moore v. Brosnan

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  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    And a CR with Brozzer and Tarnatino would have been a bigger disaster then DAD. Even worse - Fleming fans would have despised both forever for destroying a good story.

    It would have been up there with NSNA and CR67.


    You really think so? I don't remember there being that kind of uproar at the time. Tarantino may have made a few naff films but he's also made some great ones. He's definitely a cut above Tamahori. I'd be quite interested to have seen what it would have been like.
  • Posts: 12,837
    BAIN123 wrote:
    And a CR with Brozzer and Tarnatino would have been a bigger disaster then DAD. Even worse - Fleming fans would have despised both forever for destroying a good story.

    It would have been up there with NSNA and CR67.


    You really think so? I don't remember there being that kind of uproar at the time. Tarantino may have made a few naff films but he's also made some great ones. He's definitely a cut above Tamahori. I'd be quite interested to have seen what it would have been like.

    Plus, this was Tarantino's glory days. He'd just come of Kill Bill and had never really made a bad film then. The only film I didn't like directed by him was Death Proof (the weaker part of Grind House, I preferred Rogruigez's zombie film).
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I agree he's got that "fanboy" way about him like a certain Lee Tamahori did BUT he's also shown he can write very memorable, sometimes funny dialogue.

    Also, given the backlash DAD experienced I'd have thought there would have been a deliberate attempt by all involved to tone down the excess for the next film.

    I wouldn't trade the CR we have for anything however :D
  • Posts: 3,333
    I suppose Bain's point is that the masses have no taste when it comes to what's good and what's not. We only have to look at the modern successes of Transformers, Twilight and Hunger Games to see how "youngsters" are sold movies nowadays. I had a glance at BO Mojo and it's interesting to see that LTK was a flop in the US but a hit Worldwide (Unadjusted). That's the only problem with those figures, Bain, it mostly takes in what the US likes and not Worldwide tastes.

    It's true to say that the US was in love with Brosnan and didn't matter what kind of dreck was served up, the masses loved it - good or bad, but mostly bad for us old school (English) fans. If we were to use those charts as some sort of guide then we would have to say that it's a bit of a grey area, both serious and comical Bonds score very highly, depending on when and who was starring in them. Though actonsteve has a valid point, TB, FRWL and CR with their more serious Fleming tones nudge past the more goofy efforts as clear winners.

    Personally I'm glad Bond has gone darker and in a sense returned to his roots. Though I do miss the witty one-liners from the Connery days, I have no desire to return to the jocular Roger Moore Bonds or the vainglorious Brosnan era. The latter being the worse imho.
  • Posts: 228
    It takes two to tango, Fleming's style will always be incorporated into the films, whether its big or small, Fleming always has a impact on the films.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I suppose Bain's point is that the masses have no taste when it comes to what's good and what's not. We only have to look at the modern successes of Transformers, Twilight and Hunger Games to see how "youngsters" are sold movies nowadays. I had a glance at BO Mojo and it's interesting to see that LTK was a flop in the US but a hit Worldwide (Unadjusted). That's the only problem with those figures, Bain, it mostly takes in what the US likes and not Worldwide tastes.

    The thing is the US is (kind of) important when it comes to the world of film - particularly Bond. Its one of the biggest nations in the world, hence a lot of the BO will come from there. It helps if a Bond film is a hit in the States. As far as I know GF, TB and CR were. The books were big in the states too (everyone knows about JFK's fondness of FRWL).

    The films GF and TB, despite their more Fleming-tones, mark the point when gagetry started to become the focus. True they weren't as excessive as they would become in later films but still - they created the building blocks. They were, incidently, extremely popular. Its no coincidence the series started to become more OTT afterwards.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited May 2012 Posts: 6,304
    bondsum wrote:
    mostly bad for us old school (English) fans.
    Hey! I'm an old school fan, and I'm American.

    Bond films make about 2/3 of their box office overseas, and 1/3 in the US.

    What elevates Bond above typical action films is that it is not pitched solely at teenagers. He is an adult, and the sex and sadism, often in amazing locations, works.

    When the films strain too hard for the younger audience, we get Jaws and double-taking pigeons in MR, the Internet-anointed Denise Richards in TWINE, and the surfing in DAD.

    Bond should never surf, snowboard, or skateboard--all recipes for disaster.
  • Posts: 3,333
    BAIN123 wrote:
    The thing is the US is (kind of) important when it comes to the world of film - particularly Bond. Its one of the biggest nations in the world, hence a lot of the BO will come from there. It helps if a Bond film is a hit in the States. As far as I know GF, TB and CR were.

    I agree. We only have to look at the recent Tintin movie, a huge international success but considered a flop as it did poor box office in the US market. But this might begin to change as some of the more recent blockbusters are getting international releases ahead of the US dates, if only by a few days or maybe a week.

    Sorry, echo, I know there are a lot of old school American fans that love the 60's Bonds. No offence, my thread was aimed at the present US teen market that now makes up the majority of BO figures and not the more sophisticated adult ones that enjoy quality over brainless entertainment.
  • Posts: 228
    BAIN123 wrote:
    And a CR with Brozzer and Tarnatino would have been a bigger disaster then DAD. Even worse - Fleming fans would have despised both forever for destroying a good story.

    It would have been up there with NSNA and CR67.


    You really think so? I don't remember there being that kind of uproar at the time. Tarantino may have made a few naff films but he's also made some great ones. He's definitely a cut above Tamahori. I'd be quite interested to have seen what it would have been like.

    I totally agree, Tarantino would have made a interesting bond film, I hope hes given the chance to direct one in the future.
  • Posts: 624
    Holy crap this thread sure took off. :D

    It will take me a while to read all the replies.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Right off the bat, Brosnan is more Fleming esque than Moore, so easy to say, you come to the conclusion in seconds, but it's not as clear cut as that though. Moore certainly had his moments, but these two will never come near to Connery or Dalton in that they are (largely) James Bond charlatans and sometimes seem so far detached from the original character you wonder if it's really Bond you are watching whenever they are on screen on occasion

    No fan of Moore for sure but the credentials were there every so often in that he looked and acted feasibly as a Fleming intention, but these moments were so very few and far between, Brosnan, also no fan of him, but he had more of those moments and did better with it, so I went intially with him, but these two, along with Lazenby and Hitherto Daniel Craig, will always be in Connery or Daltons shadow when it comes to the real James Bond character or what Fleming intended

  • Posts: 4,762
    Oh dip, now you've gone and made me contemplate which of my two favorite Bond actors are more Fleming-esque! I picked Brosnan because he has the slight edge over Moore with me and because I do think he's a little more Fleming-esque. Take scenes like his discussion with Alec Trevelyan in the statue graveyard, the fight with Trevelyan at the end, escaping in the plane with the bombs in the PTS of TND, the killing of Dr. Kaufman, the fight in Lachasie's office, the killing of Elektra, and his confrontation with Chang in the hotel room in DAD. There's enough evidence here to say that Brosnan is super-Fleming-esque. But even Roger is super-Fleming-esque as well. Take scenes like when he's about to kill Rosie Carver, when he interrogates Andrea Anders, the fight with Sandor, the fight with Chang, the Locque car kick, the race for the bomb in OP, and any scene with Max Zorin in AVTAK. Really both of these candidates in mention are extremely Fleming-esque, and it's a shame that most people fail to recognize that. Let it be said, and I may be killed for this, but I couldn't care less if Bond was Fleming-esque in the movies or not. Some movies don't feature a heavily Fleming-esque Bond, and yet the series has lasted for 50 years, so it doesn't matter as much to me.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited May 2012 Posts: 8,217
    I think the reason the series has lasted so long is that it's able to go from heavy Fleming influence to almost non-existent Fleming influence, yet still maintaining an identity as Bond films. I find it remarkable.

    For me though, Brosnan was the more Flemingesque Bond. He was a bit too confident for me in areas, but scenes like the one in TND where he puts the silencer on his PPK while downing a bottle of vodka scream Fleming to me. It's a shame they didn't utilise Brosnan more in these areas because this was where he truly stood out from the rest, but there you go. I'm fairly sure he wanted it too.

    Moore, while I love the guy and some of his films are good, kind of lost that Fleming feel after TSWLM. For me, anyway. That's probably why his first three are my favourites. Only FYEO came close to this atmosphere after that.
  • I think Moore's performance in TMWTGG is very Fleming. Serious, more about the mission, even get physical for information with a female.
  • I think Moore's performance in TMWTGG is very Fleming. Serious, more about the mission, even get physical for information with a female.

    Agreed. Unfortunately the stupidity of the Goodnight character (far cry from the novel) and the midget antics ruin one of Moore's best efforts as the character. Still, this movie has always had a soft spot in my heart and I enjoy it a lot despite the obvious flaws.
  • I think Moore's performance in TMWTGG is very Fleming. Serious, more about the mission, even get physical for information with a female.

    Agreed. Unfortunately the stupidity of the Goodnight character (far cry from the novel) and the midget antics ruin one of Moore's best efforts as the character. Still, this movie has always had a soft spot in my heart and I enjoy it a lot despite the obvious flaws.

    Not to get off topic but I feel this sums up Roger Moore's Bond tenure. We enjoy the films, they have very entertaining elements, and there is some Fleming stuff roaming around in there, but the flaws of OTT parts lower its reputation.
  • Posts: 1,052
    Different people take different things from books, so much is in the readers imagination, personally I can see quite a lot Fleming in Moore and whilst the films don't really follow the novels, their are a lot of scenes throughout the films that draw from the books.

    I don't think the Brosnan era has much in relation to the books but i guess most of the material was used up by that point.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I think Moore's performance in TMWTGG is very Fleming. Serious, more about the mission, even get physical for information with a female.

    Aside from the scene with Andrea, I don't see any Fleming in Moore's performance. I see the comic excesses of later Moore films (grabbing the sumo's butt cheeks, "I sure am, boy!", etc.).

  • Posts: 5,634
    Well this is another dead end, should of known better 8-|

    Just to say, i was thinking back just then and maybe Moore is at his most Fleming esque in Octopussy, for all the overall stupid nonsense that went on back in '83, there was clear moments when Moore was almost Connery in his early years and Fleming would of been proud, but these moments were very few and far between, but when the time arised, he certainly almost did fit, and act the part, hands up, he was quite impressive, it's just that for all the few decent and great bits, and Fleming nods even, there's always a sitting tiger, a tarzan yell, a nonsense battle through Indian streets, a crocodile disguise etc, that gets in the way and almost renders whatever good work Moore does in the film as void or redundant, but the moments were there
  • Posts: 2,341
    Moore or Brosnan?
    I would have to say Brosnan. Moore is too light hearted and funny. Fleming's Bond was never funny. He had no sense of humor whatsoever. He was a brooding, moody MI6 assasin.
    About Fleming saying Bond was not a likable man, then hands down to Brosnan. I did not find him appealing at all.
  • Posts: 1,052
    I wouldn't say flemings Bond had no sense of humor, obvioulsy he didn't throw one liners around but he often displayed a humorous side during his inner musings on life etc.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Both are probably the least 'Flemingesque' but i would say Roger Moore just nicks it.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I love Roger and Pierce. More Flemingesque for me is Pierce.
  • Posts: 19,339
    There is a poll if you move up the page,you can vote for Pierce,4EverBonded...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Can't see to figure out how to vote ...
  • Posts: 19,339
    Just move up the page to the poll on the left hand side and click on 'Pierece' and your vote will be registered.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Got it! I couldn't see where to click, I didn't guess it would actually be his name.
    Thanks. :D
  • Posts: 135
    voted for Moore. I actually like PB more than RM but PB feels a bit too casual for Fleming-esque Bond.
  • as i said in a seperate post, Moore has the casual manner that Fleming's Bond has. I do not mean to suggest that he is the closest, but he certainly acts more like the literary Bond. If he had the darker, edgier elements and emotional depth of Craig or Dalton he would be the closest.
  • 002002
    edited January 2013 Posts: 581
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