Tennyson - the key to understanding Skyfall? (contains spoilers)

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Comments

  • Tuulia wrote:
    Tuulia, for writing in a second language your English is excellent. No worries there.

    We can all read a lot of sexual things into Bardem's character. I have never thought the two words "sexual minority" is controversial, but that is just my perspective.

    Thanks. :)
    And a lot of sexual things, yes, but "gay" is, IMO, far too limiting, that's all.

    Tuulia,

    I just wanted to say that as impressed as I was by the wisdom of your words I'm even more impressed now that I know that English is your second language! You write with more eloquence (and better grammar and spelling!) than many of the posters here for whom English is their first language.

    Seeing SF a second time enabled me to see the detail and subtlety to certain scenes much more clearly. But even on first viewing a lot of the things that you say are quite clear. Severine invites Bond to be with her and is waiting for him in a nightgown and with two glasses for champagne. So she was clearly "into" Bond and wanting to be with him. And the idea that Bond didn't care when she was killed - now that's just ridiculous. When Silva asks for Bond's reaction he's clearly at a loss for words, and then covers up by turning his face away and making the quip about the "waste of good scotch" (with a disgusted tone of voice). To actually have him say how disgusted he was would have a) been insulting to the intelligence of the viewers (IMHO) and b) completely defeat the purpose of Silva doing *anything* to get under Bond's skin but having Bond not give him that satisfaction.

    Which brings me to the idea of Silva being gay. I just don't see it. Bond implies that Severine was in a relationship with Silva at some point. Silva kisses her and says that her "lovers are here" (both Bond and Silva). So he clearly had a relationship with Severine. Okay, so what about him hitting on Bond? If he was truly interested in Bond than when Bond said "What makes you think that this is my first time?" that should have really turned him on and led him to continue along the avenue of hitting on Bond. But instead he quickly gets up from his chair and then starts a different line of attack. So it was clearly just something that he was doing to try to rattle Bond - and when it didn't then it was time to try something else.

    Sometimes I wonder if people watched a different Skyfall than I did, or perhaps they spent more time texting and not enough time watching what was clearly up there on the screen.

    Back to Tennyson - one of the things that I loved about the old Bond films is the glimpses they gave into a "classy" world. The inclusion of the poem and the art gallery was a nice nod to that IMHO - and it added to the Britishness of SF.

  • RC7RC7
    edited December 2012 Posts: 10,512

    Which brings me to the idea of Silva being gay. I just don't see it. Bond implies that Severine was in a relationship with Silva at some point. Silva kisses her and says that her "lovers are here" (both Bond and Silva). So he clearly had a relationship with Severine. Okay, so what about him hitting on Bond? If he was truly interested in Bond than when Bond said "What makes you think that this is my first time?" that should have really turned him on and led him to continue along the avenue of hitting on Bond. But instead he quickly gets up from his chair and then starts a different line of attack. So it was clearly just something that he was doing to try to rattle Bond - and when it didn't then it was time to try something else.

    Sometimes I wonder if people watched a different Skyfall than I did, or perhaps they spent more time texting and not enough time watching what was clearly up there on the screen.

    There was a sexual ambiguity about Silva, I think some people construed this as 'gay' rather than something more subtle.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 2,081
    thelordflasheart - thank you so much, I'm afraid I'm blushing here. That was a lovely compliment and even more so coming from you.

    I agree with what you're saying above about Severine, Silva and Bond. I'm actually convinced that some people watched a different Skyfall, or weren't paying much attention to various stuff that was clearly in the movie either visually or verbally or both.

    Using poetry would probably rarely work seamlessly and beautifully in most movies, nevermind "action" or "adventure" or "spy" movies*, but it did perfectly in Skyfall.

    *(I understand that genre classification can be a useful tool, but I dislike it due to its often limiting or misleading nature - in movies as well as music and books.)
  • Posts: 533


    Regrettably, I can't take credit for this level of analysis, but I found these two reviews. They are quite deep, but i like the thrust of their analysis. Have the hit on something? or are talking pretentious bollocks?


    Pretentious crap.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DRush76 wrote:

    Regrettably, I can't take credit for this level of analysis, but I found these two reviews. They are quite deep, but i like the thrust of their analysis. Have the hit on something? or are talking pretentious bollocks?


    Pretentious crap.

    Says you. Again, if all people are going to do is whine or be negative about something, why come into the thread in the first place if you have absolutely nothing to add?
  • Troy wrote:
    Malory's (does that name ring a bell from the movie?) Le Morte d'Arthur, the story of how Arthur is betrayed by a woman, mortally wounded in action and disappears presumed dead in the lake.

    Another interesting point is that Malory used pre-existing legends, texts and their characters as the biases for almost all of Le Morte d'Arthur. However, he did create one completely new knight of the round table - Sir Gareth.

    Again, this cannot possibly be a concordance.

  • Posts: 533


    Says you. Again, if all people are going to do is whine or be negative about something, why come into the thread in the first place if you have absolutely nothing to add?


    Because I can. If you don't like what I have to say about "SKYFALL" . . . too bad. There is no law that I have to agree with everyone else.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Troy wrote:
    Malory's (does that name ring a bell from the movie?) Le Morte d'Arthur, the story of how Arthur is betrayed by a woman, mortally wounded in action and disappears presumed dead in the lake.

    Another interesting point is that Malory used pre-existing legends, texts and their characters as the biases for almost all of Le Morte d'Arthur. However, he did create one completely new knight of the round table - Sir Gareth.

    Again, this cannot possibly be a concordance.

    Yes, I did think of Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur when I first heard Mallory's name, although I have never actually read that work. I think it fits nicely with Skyfall and I do not think it is a coincidence.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DRush76 wrote:

    Says you. Again, if all people are going to do is whine or be negative about something, why come into the thread in the first place if you have absolutely nothing to add?


    Because I can. If you don't like what I have to say about "SKYFALL" . . . too bad. There is no law that I have to agree with everyone else.

    I am not so pathetic that I would mope if someone doesn't like it. Your opinion is your opinion. I just find it ludicrous to come into a thread just to be negative. That would be like buying tickets to a concert featuring a band you hate just so you can go there and complain in the crowd during the performance. You have nothing to add (as you don't like this symbolism stuff), and yet you continue to post in threads like this that you come to knowing you won't like what you find. It just makes no sense, that's all.
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 3
    Just to try to turn the discussion in a different direction, I was musing today on Bond's encounter with Q in front of "The Fighting Temeraire" at the Old Tate. Q does not have much with which to outfit 007, who comments "It's not exactly Christmas--". Upholding the traditional values M and Bond share involves self-sacrifice and getting on with the job with the tools one has. I am reminded of a story told me by a Commander in the British Navy who had served alongside American forces peacekeeping in the Third Balkan War: 1991-2001. Amusingly to him, the U.S. forces had every kind of bullet-proof gear available, while the Commander comfortably walked the patrol with a rifle and a knife. "Skyfall", too, shows Bond at his most resourceful and murderous --the look on Daniel Craig's face as he makes the CAT 320D L excavator climb over the Volkwagens to get to Patrice is one of total fury. Returning to the theme of the quote from "Ulysses", "what we are, we are" --can be --enough. Those fond of Victorian poetry will remember, too, Henley's "Invictus", which I quote here:

    Out of the night that covers me,
    Black as the pit from pole to pole,
    I thank whatever gods may be
    For my unconquerable soul.

    In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

    Beyond this place of wrath and tears
    Looms but the Horror of the shade,
    And yet the menace of the years
    Finds and shall find me unafraid.

    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll.
    I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul.

    A worthy anthem for 007!

    Lark



  • Posts: 3
    P.S. Does the theme of austerity resonate with any other viewers of "Skyfall"?
  • Posts: 11,425
    I didn't pick up any austerity vibes specifically although SF does feel like the first Bond movie to deal with Britain's post imperial decline. It's an odd change of direction for the series which has spent 50 years successfully ignoring reality and pretending that Britain remains a world power.
  • I hadn't thought about a new age of austerity when watching SF. I think that that would be difficult to incorporate to be honest - we're used to seeing Bond in glamorous locations on the company's dime, after all.

    I seem to recall some TV show or movie that talked about how horrible all the budget cuts to whatever agency that was featured were - but then they proceeded to have very expensive cars (all wrecked), lots of cutting edge tech, and traveling to exotic locations and staying in great hotels. Best to leave that kind of commentary out of it.
  • Posts: 1
    Isn't Portugal England's oldest ally? Is Mendes a portugese name? So many layers to this film it makes the old Roger Moore ones look very silly. Still have admiration for Sir Sean's Bond though.

    I do agree that there was sexism in Bond's treatment of women in Skyfall but he is also borderline alcoholic, a pill popper and probably has very few emotions at all; no doubt qualifications to be "licenced to kill"
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    South wrote:
    Isn't Portugal England's oldest ally? Is Mendes a portugese name? So many layers to this film it makes the old Roger Moore ones look very silly. Still have admiration for Sir Sean's Bond though.

    I do agree that there was sexism in Bond's treatment of women in Skyfall but he is also borderline alcoholic, a pill popper and probably has very few emotions at all; no doubt qualifications to be "licenced to kill"

    Welcome @South, you can present yourself in here: http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/13/new-members-introduce-yourself/p30#Item_896
    As for the first question, Portugal and England hold the oldest still-standing alliance in the world (Anglo-Portuguese Alliance) since 1386.
    Second question: yes, Mendes is a portuguese name and Sam is himself half-portuguese.
    Moore's films are what they are, still fun to watch. I do agree that they don't have the complexity of films like SF and some are just plain embarrassing. There is always sexism in Bond but I didn't feel that there was that much in SF (I'm a woman), I think some people didn't fully understand what they were watching. Bond is a complex character and he is by no means perfect, he is a perfect anti-hero!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Just wanted to say: some great posts by @Tuulia, @theLord, @4Ever, @Lark and @OBrady. thanks guys, these were all fascinating posts. It's a pity I know so little of Britains cultural heritage. But then again, I'm no Brit..
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    Tuulia wrote:
    I've finally gotten to read some of the earlier threads, and wanted to thank Troy for posting the analysis above, a great find. I'll need to read again and think it through. I'm not familiar with Malory, the Gareth story/Sir Gareth and all that... need to do some reading... All very educational. :)

    One detail I couldn't agree with:


    "Further, Bond is revealed to have a birth mother with a Spanish maiden name, suggesting a further ahem, bond with Silva."


    Silva is supposed to be of Portuguese origin, tho, right? And besides, how is Delacroix a Spanish name, anyway?

    That detail completely escaped me when I first read this @Tuulia! Delacroix spanish =)) someone missed French lessons.

    Yes, Silva was supposed to be Azorean, as confirmed by Mendes to a Portuguese TV (according to my mother) but that wasn't important for the character so his nationality was not referred to in the film.
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    Sandy wrote:
    ---
    Second question: yes, Mendes is a portuguese name and Sam is himself half-portuguese.

    Not half, more like, um, a quarter or some such thing? (Or then I've just been reading misinformation.)
    Just wanted to say: some great posts by @Tuulia, @theLord, @4Ever, @Lark and @OBrady. thanks guys, these were all fascinating posts. It's a pity I know so little of Britains cultural heritage. But then again, I'm no Brit..

    Thanks. :)

    And I know so little, too, and am no Brit, either, but I'm trying to learn at least bits and pieces... a Tennyson poem here, a Turner painting there... ;)

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2013 Posts: 28,694
    We covered Tennyson this week in my British literature class, and he was just brilliant. We studied his extensive "In Memoriam", his elegy to his best friend Arthur Henry Hallam who died suddenly and very young in Vienna, leaving Tennyson empty and cold. The poem was written over the period that he was recovering from his pain, and you really see all the denial, emptiness, confusion about whether there is a higher purpose for us all beyond this life, and his eventual acceptance with Arthur's death and a foundation of solace he is able to settle into. I see a big fascination with time in Tennyson's work that is present in Ulysses, and a commentary about how we can move on as we age with our baggage. Arthur's death haunts him and he struggles to overcome his doubts in God, a criticism of science and nature as well as his own fears of moving forward. I see a lot of these emotions in the lines taken from Ulysses, with "though much is taken, much abides", and "made weak by time and fate" but "strong in will" to be able to continue on with our lives past our sorrows and challenges that we are met with in this life.

    I highly recommend reading/studying Tennyson to anyone even slightly interested. He is compelling to analyze and his prose is just eloquent, and truly has stood the test of time.
  • A thought from an American. Loved the film and the threads here (just downloaded the film on Ipad).

    Had a question. I'm not sure of English protocol, and if I give offense, I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

    It seems that everyone else is interpreting the film to be about England's post imperial decline. There's food for thought in that, but for me M's character represented an allegory for the Queen. It makes me think of the film as a symbol of hope and endurance, not decline.

    I guess the Bond escapade during the Olympics got me thinking about it, but if I were British and had a Queen, I would want her to be like M.

    Standing the test of time, making the hard decisions, and continuing on in the face of adversity. She shows that even though she asks much of those who serve her, she expects no less of herself.

    Which leads me to think of Mallory's character in light of Prince Charles. Regarded as a lightweight by those who don't know him well, but stands the test of fire when given.

    Having now read the Tennyson poem in it's entirety, this also makes me think of the film as a statement about the inevitability of mortality, no matter how royal the head.

    Anyway, I think Craig's interpretation of the Bond character has taken what was previously entertaining; and elevated it to the level of art. It exemplifies what makes Britain great.

    Maybe it's our lack of royalty here that compels us to look across the water for inspiration, but know that English fortitude still matters. Strive on!

    Curious if anyone else sees it this way. Anyway, best wishes.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Great analysis, @ColonialLeo; that is one fine first post. The great thing about Tennyson is that he was so eloquent and compelling that his work can stand for so many things all at the same time. Thanks to work like Ulysses that tackle several every day issues from mortality, aging and time to the challenges we face in moments of overwhelming hardship, Skyfall can be seen in many different lights, heightening the discourse about it for many years to come.
  • Thanks 0B.

    I guess, looking from outside, it's easier for me to see that the British spirit was there before the empire.

    I mean King Alfred, Queen Elizabeth 1, Newton, Wren, Watt, Faraday.....

    For them, like now, greatness was not assured.

    Empires pass through fate. Yours of coal, ours of petroleum.

    But if the soul remains, then that which matters most cannot be killed.

    Oh well, that's deep enough for one day.

    Take care.
  • Greetings from the States. While watching Skyfall, I was cognizant of the fact that it clearly exemplifies British pride, as well as pride in the hero who is 007. I was especially moved during the Tennyson scene. So much so that I Googled the poem and found myself at this forum. Excellent analysis, and linking Bond to King Arthur is absolutely brilliant.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    jbibro wrote:
    linking Bond to King Arthur is absolutely brilliant.

    I concur! And welcome!
  • Posts: 1
    My three favourite things about Skyfall:
    1. The DB
    2. M's apartment
    3. The hauntingly beautiful and yet heartbreakingly melancholic driving scene heading towards Skyfall, the end of all things as we knew it, the rebirth of Bond and M16.
  • Posts: 1,994
    DRush76 says: Because I can. If you don't like what I have to say about "SKYFALL" . . . too bad. There is no law that I have to agree with everyone else.

    You, sir, are very right. But, for the sake of conversation, I would certainly appreciate a fuller explanation of your thoughts and of course your suggestions regarding content that wouldn't regard as "pretentious crap."

  • Posts: 54
    Some thought-provoking analysis here, much of which I agree with... certainly the Arthurian themes and the relevance of Tennyson/Turner. As Fleming enjoyed his own Bond-as-St-George metaphor and highlighted the decline of the British as he perceived it throughout the books, I think he would have appreciated the film.

    Although the "pretentious crap" comment might get a few backs up, it occurs to me that Mendes has achieved such a fine balance in the film, that viewers who don't pick up on these themes can easily ignore them and just sit back and enjoy Skyfall as an action film.

    ...Or they can choose not to enjoy it at all...
  • I kind of felt parts of Skyfall were written to cover the possibility of another real-life terrorist attack on London during the Olympics, in which case Dench's Tennyson speech would bring the house down, along with Bond standing guard over London at the end.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I kind of felt parts of Skyfall were written to cover the possibility of another real-life terrorist attack on London during the Olympics, in which case Dench's Tennyson speech would bring the house down, along with Bond standing guard over London at the end.

    Interesting idea there. I always feared that there would be an atrocity attempted at the London Olympics in 2012 but thankfully it never came to pass.
  • Posts: 54
    Dragonpol wrote:
    I kind of felt parts of Skyfall were written to cover the possibility of another real-life terrorist attack on London during the Olympics, in which case Dench's Tennyson speech would bring the house down, along with Bond standing guard over London at the end.

    Interesting idea there. I always feared that there would be an atrocity attempted at the London Olympics in 2012 but thankfully it never came to pass.

    Lots of hard work was done over the period by both services (as you can imagine) so spare a thought to appreciate them!
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