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Did Ian Fleming ever give his views on bull fighting?

DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
edited April 2013 in Literary 007 Posts: 18,270
I'm researching about Raymond Benson's Doubleshot (2000) at the moment and I was wondering whether or not Ian Fleming had ever given his thoughts on the blood sport of bullfighting in Spain. I don't think that he ever did, mind, but I'd still be very iinterested to see if our literary Bond experts here on MI6 Community can come up with anything on this one. I have a feeling that Fleming would have been against it as he was anti-hunting in general, when it came to shooting and fox hunting. It's interesting that a bullfight does appear in the film version of OHMSS, though it does not feature in the original novel version by Fleming. I think that it might also be mentioned in the TMWTGG novel on Scaramanga's sexual predispositions if I remember correctly.

I'd really love to hear your views on this subject matter.
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Comments

  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    Where is it in Spain they have the bull-run event. Is it Pamplona ? First thing I thought of. I don't really like what they do over there, in the interest of 'sports entertainment', but it's been going on for centuries now as I understand. I haven't read either the Golden Gun or OHMSS novels, so can't offer an opinion on that. What I will add, it's something they could maybe include in a future release. What I mean is, an action piece with Bond chasing an adversary with charging bulls in the vicinity. That would be a rush
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    Interesting in the OHMSS film, Hunt takes pains to never show the bull to be in any danger. I don't know if that was realistic, but I think it might have been a very sanitized bull fight for film purposes.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,116
    Often the villains in Bond novels are seen insensitive about animal pain and prone to animal cruelty. Scaramanga kills a bird for fun, Milton Krest kills a rare fish specimen, Goldfinger lets Oddjob eat a cat. While Bond is hardly vegetarian, he seems to dislike and disapprove of unnecessary animal suffering.
  • timmertimmer
    edited March 2013 Posts: 4,622
    Yes,Fleming very often portrayed his villains as animal killers. This was a true testament to villainy in Fleming's world it seemed. Scaramanga by my count gunned down three innocent birds. He blew away Tiffy's two kling-klings at 3 1/2 Love Lane. Later as the climactic train showdown was heating up, he shot down a turkey buzzard passing overhead, just for the hell of it.
    And then there was The Robber in LALD gunning down a pelican that Bond had been admiring. The killing even warranted it's own chapter title, Death of a Pelican. Bond was rather put out by the senseless killing of the pelican.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    People are correct to say that Fleming (and by extension) Bond would probably be against the 'sport' but it is certainly the sort of cultural event that would make an excellent backdrop to a Bond location or set piece and I would be in favour of seeing it. It would have to be in print though as today's film audiences are far too squeamish to see it on the screen. I think having a henchman who is a matador would make for an original style of combat for the final fight. Or perhaps a sequence set in the villain's personal bullring where Bond is hunted like the bull for the villain's entertainment?

    On a point of order I'm no expert but the style of bullfighting depicted in OHMSS is the Portuguese not Spanish. I think this is similar to that of the south of France with the emphasis on dodging the bull rather than the classic, ritualistic pomp and circumstance of the Spanish which centres around the kill. But I may be wrong.

    In any event showing the killing of an animal on screen would be a big no no for EON and their 12 certificate. Bond can gun down as many men as you like or eat a nice steak (for which I presume an animal had to die?) but you can't show a creature being killed; unless its obviously 'evil' - snake, tarantula, rat. Don't know who makes these rules but that's the reality of the world we live in.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    People are correct to say that Fleming (and by extension) Bond would probably be against the 'sport' but it is certainly the sort of cultural event that would make an excellent backdrop to a Bond location or set piece and I would be in favour of seeing it. It would have to be in print though as today's film audiences are far too squeamish to see it on the screen. I think having a henchman who is a matador would make for an original style of combat for the final fight. Or perhaps a sequence set in the villain's personal bullring where Bond is hunted like the bull for the villain's entertainment?

    On a point of order I'm no expert but the style of bullfighting depicted in OHMSS is the Portuguese not Spanish. I think this is similar to that of the south of France with the emphasis on dodging the bull rather than the classic, ritualistic pomp and circumstance of the Spanish which centres around the kill. But I may be wrong.

    In any event showing the killing of an animal on screen would be a big no no for EON and their 12 certificate. Bond can gun down as many men as you like or eat a nice steak (for which I presume an animal had to die?) but you can't show a creature being killed; unless its obviously 'evil' - snake, tarantula, rat. Don't know who makes these rules but that's the reality of the world we live in.

    Interesting post. I'd be curious to find out more about Portuguese vs. Spanish bullfights.

    And your point about violence on film is spot on. Somehow nudity becomes the scapegoat but never violence.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    OK, just my 2 cents on the subject. There are bullfights only in very specific areas of Portugal, namely where OHMSS was filmed. The one depicted in the film is more like playing/training, not actually a bullfight. Still, Portuguese bullfight both on foot and on horse is almost entirely different from the Spanish one and there is no kill in the Portuguese one.
    Just as a side note I'm completely against any sort of bullfight and I'm proud to say it's not done in my region.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    Maybe Bond is forced by some villians to take part in a bull fight but doesn't actually kill the bull? Just have him escape instead.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,116
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    People are correct to say that Fleming (and by extension) Bond would probably be against the 'sport' but it is certainly the sort of cultural event that would make an excellent backdrop to a Bond location or set piece and I would be in favour of seeing it. It would have to be in print though as today's film audiences are far too squeamish to see it on the screen. I think having a henchman who is a matador would make for an original style of combat for the final fight. Or perhaps a sequence set in the villain's personal bullring where Bond is hunted like the bull for the villain's entertainment?

    On a point of order I'm no expert but the style of bullfighting depicted in OHMSS is the Portuguese not Spanish. I think this is similar to that of the south of France with the emphasis on dodging the bull rather than the classic, ritualistic pomp and circumstance of the Spanish which centres around the kill. But I may be wrong.

    In any event showing the killing of an animal on screen would be a big no no for EON and their 12 certificate. Bond can gun down as many men as you like or eat a nice steak (for which I presume an animal had to die?) but you can't show a creature being killed; unless its obviously 'evil' - snake, tarantula, rat. Don't know who makes these rules but that's the reality of the world we live in.

    Great observations and ideas here. A matadore henchman would be something very different. I could see a scene where the badguy revels in the killing of a bull in a corrida, while Bond finds this barbaric.
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    Interesting posts above about the OHMSS bullring. Yes, it being a Portugese style bull "fight" does explain what was going on in the background, while Bond, Draco and company, enjoyed their meal.
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,541
    In OHMSS we see "forcados". They don´t kill the bull, they just try to catch it with their arms and immobilize it on the sand.

    The most popular bullfighting is the Spanish corridas or faenas, where the bullfighter has to use the capote and the muleta. There are also picadores (on horses) and banderillas (only the weapons without any capote). At last, the bullfighter kills the bull with the sword.

    Really they are both very different and I don´t know if they can be named "sports" any of them...
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,116
    ggl007 wrote:
    In OHMSS we see "forcados". They don´t kill the bull, they just try to catch it with their arms and immobilize it on the sand.

    The most popular bullfighting is the Spanish corridas or faenas, where the bullfighter has to use the capote and the muleta. There are also picadores (on horses) and banderillas (only the weapons without any capote). At last, the bullfighter kills the bull with the sword.

    Really they are both very different and I don´t know if they can be named "sports" any of them...

    In a way, Spanish corrida is an extreme sport, the most extreme there is. A very cruel one, I have to say.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2013 Posts: 18,270
    This thread has generated some very interesting discussions that I've really enjoyed reading. There appears to be more to the topc of Ian Fleming and bull fighting that meets the eye. This is why I love MI6 so very much. I especially like the points about the differences between the bull fights in Portugal and Spain. This is all grist to the mill. I think that bull fighting was used in the spy film Caravan to Vaccares, loosely based on an Alastair Maclean novel and which starred Moonraker's Michael Lonsdale as a duke who killed a charging bull quite graphically at the end of the film. I saw this film on Channel 5 in early 2001. So bull fighting has been used before in spy films. I'd still like to see it used in an alternative way in a future James Bond film, though.

    P.S. Bull fighting also appeared in an episode of Columbo called 'A Matter of Honor' from the Fifth Season. It even starred Pedro Armendariz Jnr. as a detective of the Mexican police.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2013 Posts: 18,270
    You can watch the full film of Caravan to Vaccares (1974) on You Tube in the link below. The bull fighting action scene is very near the end.

  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,541
    Caravan to Vaccares is located and was filmed in France.

    What we can see at about 1:15 is an strange mix between the "Bombero Torero" Show (clowns and midgets "against" small bulls or "vaquillas") and a corrida of "Rejones" (only bullfighters on horses against the bulls). The dressing and the developmente is completely different to a real corrida de toros.

    Here is a link for a real corrida:
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2013 Posts: 18,270
    Thank you so much for your additional thoughts - you seem to be quite the expert on bull fighting and Spanish and Portugese culture in general, ggl007.

    Can anyone here think of any other spy films with bull fighting scenes or any films on bull fighting in general?

    I'd really love to hear more on this subject area!
  • BondWillReturnBondWillReturn
    edited April 2013 Posts: 816
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Thank you so much for your additional thoughts - you seem to be quite the expert on bull fighting and Spanish and Portugese culture in general, ggl007.

    Can anyone here think of any other spy films with bull fighting scenes or any films on bull fighting in general?

    I'd really love to hear more on this subject area!

    There's a scene in Once Upon A Time In Mexico where Johnny Depp rigs a bull fight so the bull kills the matador. There are also bull fighting scenes in The Matador (starring Pierce Brosnan) and a scene where bulls charge through the streets of Italy Spain in Knight and Day
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,541
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Thank you so much for your additional thoughts - you seem to be quite the expert on bull fighting and Spanish and Portugese culture in general, ggl007.

    Can anyone here think of any other spy films with bull fighting scenes or any films on bull fighting in general?

    I'd really love to hear more on this subject area!
    Thanks, not an expert just an Spanish aficionado.
    As BondWillReturn points, The Matador was a good one. In Knight and Day they mix the SanFermines (Pamplona) with Sevilla... =)) Just a thousand kilometres of distance...
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,116
    Thinking about it, a bullfighter would make a great henchman.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Yes, James Bond meets bull fighting is certainly fresh and exciting, plus the cunematic James Bond has never really been to Spain proper before. Maybe in the next Craig Bond installment?
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    I think the bullfighting backdrop was perfectly handled in the OHMSS film. You couldn't very well have Bond enjoying the slaughter of helpless bulls.
    Personally I find kill-the-bull style bullfighting barbaric and a form of animal cruelty. It would never fly in North America. But what we saw in OHMSS looked perfectly fine and to be a good show. Presumably the bulls got a nice bath afterwards and a good feed of grain or whatever they eat.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2013 Posts: 18,270
    Yes, I abhor all forms of barbarity practised on animals in the name of (blood) sport and I think that Ian Fleming and James Bond did too, well ahead of their time, to their credit.
  • Judi2013fan_MeetBondJudi2013fan_MeetBond Banned
    Posts: 57
    As a Christian I believe animals were put on this earth for Man and Ian Fleming was a Christian man I am sure he shares these views.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Judi2013fan_MeetBond wrote:
    Ian Fleming was a Christian man

    Where's your evidence for that?

    Just because he was brought up in an ostensibly Christian environment doesn't mean he was a 'believer'.

    I see no evidence in the Bond books nor in the numerous biographies of Fleming I have read that ever make a single mention of God or a profession of 'faith'.

    But I'm sure you can put me straight.
  • Judi2013fan_MeetBondJudi2013fan_MeetBond Banned
    Posts: 57
    Ice, there is plenty of Christian subtext if you just read the novels ;)

    I know your interenet is filled up a lot these days with your athiest propaganda but that doesn't mean your heroes are not of faith a la Fleming. Let's leave that off the boards shall we and keep it about Bond?
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,116
    Judi2013fan_MeetBond wrote:
    Ice, there is plenty of Christian subtext if you just read the novels ;)

    I know your interenet is filled up a lot these days with your athiest propaganda but that doesn't mean your heroes are not of faith a la Fleming. Let's leave that off the boards shall we and keep it about Bond?

    Such as? I would say that Blofeld is a Satan figure, but that's about it. Bond, when he thinks about God, the afterlife and so on (like in say Goldfinger) thinks about it in a rather mundane, even frivolous, way. When he talks about religion he seems to be more interested about its cultural significance (such as when he asks to Draco if Tracy is Catholic). I don't know if Fleming believed in God or not, but he did not strike me as very religious in his writing. His view on adultery (for instance) seemed much more liberal than most Christians.

    While I am atheist and I am all for finding Christian subtext in any piece of fiction if it is there, but you cannot use an ideological bias when you analyze literature. Anyway, back on topic, even if he was Christian, not all Christians, far from it, consider the life and well being of animals as sacred.
  • Judi2013fan_MeetBondJudi2013fan_MeetBond Banned
    edited April 2013 Posts: 57
    Ludovico wrote:
    Anyway, back on topic, even if he was Christian, not all Christians, far from it, consider the life and well being of animals as sacred.

    No kidding that was my point. Read it next time before spouting your anti-conservative athiest dogma?
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    @Judi2013fan_MeetBond nobody was offensive towards you so I suggest you don't take the discussion that way. This matter has nothing to do with religion and @Ludovico gave a very honest and balanced opinion.
  • Judi2013fan_MeetBondJudi2013fan_MeetBond Banned
    Posts: 57
    I am sorry Sandy. I take my faith VERY seriously and sometimes misperceive threats. It is all I have to keep me going sometimes.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Judi2013fan_MeetBond wrote:
    Ice, there is plenty of Christian subtext if you just read the novels ;)

    Feel free to enlighten me (with quotes of course). In 14 books the mentions of God and religion are countable on one hand. Fleming is hardly Graham Greene is he?

    And don't question my knowledge of the novels - I'm not one the cretins round here who is proud to state on a particular subject 'Well I've never read the books but....'
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