Did Ian Fleming ever give his views on bull fighting?

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  • Posts: 15,117
    Ice, there is plenty of Christian subtext if you just read the novels ;)

    Feel free to enlighten me (with quotes of course). In 14 books the mentions of God and religion are countable on one hand. Fleming is hardly Graham Greene is he?

    And don't question my knowledge of the novels - I'm not one the cretins round here who is proud to state on a particular subject 'Well I've never read the books but....'

    It would be interesting to start a thread with this topic. God and Christianity in the Bond novels, I mean.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited April 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Ludovico wrote:
    Ice, there is plenty of Christian subtext if you just read the novels ;)

    Feel free to enlighten me (with quotes of course). In 14 books the mentions of God and religion are countable on one hand. Fleming is hardly Graham Greene is he?

    And don't question my knowledge of the novels - I'm not one the cretins round here who is proud to state on a particular subject 'Well I've never read the books but....'

    It would be interesting to start a thread with this topic. God and Christianity in the Bond novels, I mean.

    It would have a short life, I'd wager.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote:
    Ice, there is plenty of Christian subtext if you just read the novels ;)



    Feel free to enlighten me (with quotes of course). In 14 books the mentions of God and religion are countable on one hand. Fleming is hardly Graham Greene is he?

    And don't question my knowledge of the novels - I'm not one the cretins round here who is proud to state on a particular subject 'Well I've never read the books but....'

    It would be interesting to start a thread with this topic. God and Christianity in the Bond novels, I mean.

    It would have a short life, I'd wager.

    On this forum? Most definitely - still it exists...
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited April 2013 Posts: 13,355
    This is the one: http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6613/god-and-ian-fleming

    I'm sorry to see this thread go so far away from the intended topic, I'll see if I can steer it back on course.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
  • Posts: 15,117
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    Well, we already have one in the form of Domingo Espada in Doubleshot - it would make an excellent contemporary James Bond film.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    No I don't think so. I think it's rather like being a king fu master or ballerina in that its almost like being a monk. You have to go away from your family and live and breathe the art of bullfighting every day. It's not something you can just pick up and put down wily nily.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    No I don't think so. I think it's rather like being a king fu master or ballerina in that its almost like being a monk. You have to go away from your family and live and breathe the art of bullfighting every day. It's not something you can just pick up and put down wily nily.

    There goes my idea... I was already imagining an action sequence with picadors trying to get to Bond, then one guy running after him with a sword. Oh well.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    No I don't think so. I think it's rather like being a king fu master or ballerina in that its almost like being a monk. You have to go away from your family and live and breathe the art of bullfighting every day. It's not something you can just pick up and put down wily nily.

    There goes my idea... I was already imagining an action sequence with picadors trying to get to Bond, then one guy running after him with a sword. Oh well.

    I don't see anything wrong with that. The villain throwing Bond in at the deep end or hunting Bond like the bull could work. And of course because its Bond he would be able to turn his hand pretty successfully to any aspect of bullfighting. Only possible in a book though as the whole thing is too contentious these days for EON to touch.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Well, we've already had the human hunting in Octopussy at least and they originally wanted an elephant hunt like the one in Octopussy in TMWTGG - Harry Saltzman even had the elephant shoes ordered - typical of "mad Harry".
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Harry Saltzman even had the elephant shoes ordered - typical of "mad Harry".

    Classic - no wonder the guy went bankrupt. Wasnt it something like 100 pairs? Cubby must've gone mental!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Harry Saltzman even had the elephant shoes ordered - typical of "mad Harry".

    Classic - no wonder the guy went bankrupt. Wasnt it something like 100 pairs? Cubby must've gone mental!

    Yes, something like that. It's like the other one where he said imagine a crocodile got into bed beside Bond. Cubby said "well, what happens next?" Harry said, "I don't know" but he thought it was a good snake pit idea!

  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    No I don't think so. I think it's rather like being a king fu master or ballerina in that its almost like being a monk. You have to go away from your family and live and breathe the art of bullfighting every day. It's not something you can just pick up and put down wily nily.

    There goes my idea... I was already imagining an action sequence with picadors trying to get to Bond, then one guy running after him with a sword. Oh well.

    I don't see anything wrong with that. The villain throwing Bond in at the deep end or hunting Bond like the bull could work. And of course because its Bond he would be able to turn his hand pretty successfully to any aspect of bullfighting. Only possible in a book though as the whole thing is too contentious these days for EON to touch.

    Maybe it could work, if the villain has his own private arena (in Michael Connely's black ice the villain, a drug baron, has one, wonder if he took this from real life cases). He might have hired a disgraced bullfighter with sociopath tendencies. Maybe it is too contentious for EON to touch, but it could make for a great scene.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    Traditionally it was a hobby from what I know. Nowadays I don't think so. In Portuguese bullfighting the forcados (as seen in OHMSS) are all amateurs (besides being crazy).
  • Posts: 15,117
    Sandy wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:

    I know, I started it.

    back on topic (sort of): a bullfighter villain, as a henchman or a mastermind, would that work? Obviously he would be practicing it as a hobby. Which leads to another question: can bullfighting be a hobby?

    Traditionally it was a hobby from what I know. Nowadays I don't think so. In Portuguese bullfighting the forcados (as seen in OHMSS) are all amateurs (besides being crazy).

    Maybe in Portuguese bullfighting, but real matadores must be professional. And committed, given the bad reputation and the controversy the ''sport'' has now.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 4,622
    I see no evidence in the Bond books nor in the numerous biographies of Fleming I have read that ever make a single mention of God or a profession of 'faith'.

    But I'm sure you can put me straight.
    Fleming was not a Christian, at least not a declared person of faith, but he was definitely familiar with Christian themes and did play with them in his books. His musings regarding the Christian vice "accidie" is very stark. It's a vice that St. Thomas Acquinas warns about and expands upon at length. In fact its the one "vice" that Bond was absolutely, unequivocably opposed to. He (Bond/Fleming) wasn't as concerned about some of the others.
    The most brazen Christian reference I think is in DN, where Bond/Fleming openly muses about the disposition of souls. Bond is certain that Quarrel and No would not go to the same place. Fleming clearly believed in a final dispostion of souls.
    Fleming was an educated man who dabbled with Christian themes, which is not uncommon in literature. There are other references in the books, more oblique, but one does have to be familiar with the themes in order to recognize them.
    I think that Bond's personal moto, "I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time," although a Flemingism, is quite consistent with gospel teaching, and is sage advice for anyone to follow. ie, our task here on earth is to live each day, to use our talents for the greater good, and not spend undo time navel-gazing over the futility of it all, fearing to act etc, which is the accidie that Fleming was so opposed to.
    Fleming was an interesting man. There is much of interest to be gleaned from his scribblings, including his occasional theological musings.

  • Posts: 57
    I've always thought fleming was a Christian. Timmer you've just proved that.
  • Posts: 4,622
    I've always thought fleming was a Christian. Timmer you've just proved that.
    Well maybe but I don't think he was. He was rather Christian literate to some extent, but that's it and may have have shared Christian beliefsto some degree, which hardly makes him unique (so does Mick Jagger if you are familiar with some of his song lyrics) but I don't think Fleming ever professed a faith.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Thought I would revive this one again as I find the juxtaposition of Fleming, bullfighting and Christianity to be quite breathtaking to read.
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