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"Fleming's Bond conveyed a character "so alone and in constant jeopardy", under-equipped in soft shoes and nothing but a "ladies' gun" to defend himself."
I felt like Bond had that attitude in CR, not so much in Qos or SF
I thought the novel started out strong but quickly became a tribute novel. Technically there was nothing wrong with the writing - about the same level as Christopher Wood, but the story was too much of a mish mash to be taken seriously.
I thought SF was, and Bond 24 will be the same, little more than an amalgam of current Hollywood action movies run through the script algorithms, with names fixed to make it a Bond movie
I believe, without any doubt, that a person has the right to like or dislike a movie for whatever reason, but there has been a lot said about SF which generally people have taken at face value without any real attention to scholarship and any real independent thought about it. I disagree about the Flemingesque quality of SF. I can support my interpretations with facts. For example on another site, some one claimed that one of the Flemingesque elements was Bond was firing at the shooting range in the "new Mi6" was taken from the original chapter of Moonraker. Please, like SF if you must, but that is a heap of codswallop.
Books I've read of his that I enjoy are Birdsong, Charlotte Grey, On Green Dolphin Street and The Girl at the Lion d'Or. Unless you're into real character driven dramas, you may not like them. Birdsong has some fighting in WW1 though. He writes very well and has an eye for detail. For example in OGDS, he made New York come alive which is why I thought that he'd do a good job on Devil May Care.
"I thought the novel started out strong but quickly became a tribute novel. Technically there was nothing wrong with the writing - about the same level as Christopher Wood..."
His writing in his other books is far superior.
How do you do those "@..." quotes?
I'm sorry, but that's a poor attempt at justifying that scene 'because it was in the sixties, therefore it was all fun and games'.
How about the fact Honey Ryder and Tiffany Case were both gang-raped when they were children. Any outrage there or does that not count either as it was so long ago?
Either you're outraged about all forms of exploitation or you're fine with it irrespective of the context.
I read a post from a member last week, who's name I forget so apologies, who made reference to the Jimmy Saville scandal and that had the truth there been uncovered before SF had been released then the shower scene would have been dropped. What an utter load of nonsense. I found it quite repugnant to even mention Saville and to try and compare his actions to Bond.
I'm sorry, @WillyGalore, but you appear to be going over very old ground that has already been covered by many feminists and periodicals in the Sixties. They too shared your outrage at the sexist escapades of 007. If you think for one minute that Bond was given an easy ride because it was the Sixties then you clearly need to do some heavy research into how the Bond movies were perceived by academics in that period. I stand by my comment that I believe that scene to be innocent and Pat Fearing didn't need much coaxing. If I recall correctly, Bond responds that he will remain silent for a price after the traction table incident? Fearing then joins Bond in the steam room after putting up a little resistance, where she then undresses herself and Bond undresses himself. Oooh-ah, that's heavy stuff and if I was a feminist I'd be outraged. And yet he doesn't grab her and strip her, nor does he attack her, therefore I'm not offended. Besides, this is all ancient history and the time for being offended by Thunderball has been and gone. SkyFall is a recent movie set within a completely different political landscape so you can't compare the 2 movies anymore than you can judge it against A Clockwork Orange or Straw Dogs.
Also, who are you to decide whether you're either outraged by all forms of exploitation or you're fine with it irrespective of the context?
I won't comment on the Jimmy Saville case as I find it highly inappropriate and has no barring on the scenes we are discussing.
I think you misunderstand me. I have absolutely no problem with what happens on screen. I take it for exactly what it is: pure fiction.
I am perfectly accepting that Bond is a misogynist, he has been ever since Fleming put pen to paper, and quite frankly he's not always a very nice person. It's one of the traits which make him an interesting character and why we love to read about him in books or watch him on screen. He is the fantasy to which we would all aspire to if we could.
What I get annoyed about are people who are offended by a particular action on the one hand whilst trying to justify a similar action on the other, which is precisely what you have done my friend. Every time I have offered up examples, you have batted them away with the same excuse "ah yes, but...."
He very often wore steel-capped shoes. Just ask Willy Krebs and Tee Hee.
Perhaps. But how do you know?
Severine must have been a full-blooded woman as well, because she put up no resistance whatsoever to Bond's advances. Quite the contrary, actually.
Misogynist? Bond hates women? I'd like to see you prove that one.
Bond and Severine had not much interaction before the sex scene and doesn't even mock blackmail her, just strolls into the shower with her back turned, not even asking! I mean, she sat the table for dinner not a shag, (though the latter might be in the offing). And of course, yes, Severine being a recent sex worker. And the daftness of Bond stowing away on her yaght when of course it's not very covert is it, just heading out there to meet the villain without even a gun on him.
Yes that's a fair point. Misogynist is quite harsh. I think womaniser would probably be more appropriate.
Yes, quite. People throw this word around willy nilly without having any idea what it actually means. In truth Bond is a raving anti-misogynist.
And as @bondsum discussed so eloquently, comparisons to Bond's seduction of the very willing non-slave Patricia Fearing and his encounter with Severine are absurd in the extreme. Like comparing giant pumpkins with grapeseed - my own more dramatic take on the "apples and oranges" expression.
There is nothing to discuss re Pat Fearing.
But the appropriateness of Bond's seduction move on Severine is a fair discussion I think, simply because she was still very much a slave - owned controlled, bought and paid for by the murderous Silva, who bought her from the Triads.
When such a woman offers herself is she really truly offering herself freely?
That could only be a question to which the individual concerned answers.
I don't agree that Bond is a misogynist. That's a label that's been pinned to the character by the likes of Paul Johnson with his "Sex, Snobbery and Sadism" review and various avid anti-Bond and an anti-Fleming types such as Anthony Boucher and his ilk.
And yet you can't see the difference between Severine and the other Bond girls scarred by rape. The difference is that his involvement with these damaged women gives Bond the opportunity to help and save both Honey Rider, Tiffany Case and Pussy Galore. SkyFall's Bond not only fails to rescue the damaged and fragile Severine after having his wicked way with her, but he immediately forgets about her the minute he's back on English soil. I'm merely pointing out to you the differences in Fleming's approach and Sam Mendes'. They're entirely different when dealing with vulnerable and wounded women and how Bond comes to their rescue. The example that you've given with regards to non-slave Patricia Fearing are not like-for-like so have no relevance.
PS. Thanks, @Timmer for your input and correcting the "gang-rape" comment. You at least understand what I'm driving at here.
There are many Bond women who have been killed and are not referenced to for the rest of the movie, it's not SF that is unique in this.
And I'd love to hear your suggestions for how Bond was meant to protect Severine at that point when it was pretty clear he had no chance in saving her, being outnumbered.
It was death by black widow, not scorpion.
I get the feeling some people are overly more upset that Bond didn't cry or mourne after Severine bit the dust. Sorry but Severine was collateral damage in the middle of a huge mission, these things happen. it has before and will continue to happen. Bond had a lot more things to worry about in an increasingly short amount of time. Bond's appeal is that he's interesting moreso than him being liked.
And as I said, one it's just a movie and if people don't like what happened fair enough but it doesn't mean it was wrong or Bond was morally corrupt at the time. 2 consenting adults had sex emphasis on consenting, it's what people do. Welcome to life on Earth.
Thank you @doubleoego. You made my point far better than I was trying to ;-)
No problem, my friend.
Btw, yes, it's just a movie, but you know... It's frustrating when they be could exploring different types of women. I care about this franchise and I want to be able to say that I'm proud of everything they do.
P.S.: Misogyny is also about objectification of women. Just so you know...
That pretty much sums it up to me.
But damsel in distress are a classic archetypes and Fleming used them very well. Why can't they show up in Bond movies? If done right of course. Just like femmes fatales, they have their place in fiction. Superwomen in contemporary fiction are often nothing more than male fantasies anyway, more mensuration with guns (or knives, or swords) than proper characters.
Honey's rape was mentioned in the movie. Although they changed the method she used to kill her rapist (scorpion in the book, black widow spider in the movie). For Tiffany Case and Pussy Galore, that was left aside for the movies.