Why people like Snowden, Manning and Assange are dangerous

Comments

• forgotmyusername

  August 2013 Posts: 2,782

  There are no secrets in the world anymore, the Chinese have a tec army of hackers working 24/7 to uncover state secrets in the rest of the world. Whatever these chaps have brought to our attention has probably been under the nose of Russian and British governments for years.
  
  Assange is an egotist and does it for the benefit for his own image...and of course he's a rapist as well, I feel sorry or the woman who he assaulted and has been forgotten for the sake of 'knowing the truth'.
  
  Snowden I have a lot of time for, even now this thread has been vetted by some US bot because I typed in the word Snowden....scary stuff. With food, water, oil and land running out a new world order is coming and we need to be controlled, we are the walking dead.
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  Please read this link: http://world.time.com/2013/08/05/russia-faults-in-first-test-of-anti-gay-propaganda-law-but-future-remains-bleak/
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  Anyone........following the news a bit....about Snowden...etc.?
• Dragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com

  August 2013 edited August 2013 Posts: 18,264

  I personally hate Julian Assange intensely. He should be returned to his country of origin forthwith to face the sexual assault allegations in a court of law. Don't believe in the smokescreen that this is an attempt to silence him by the authorities. That's First Class BS in my book.
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  August 2013 Posts: 8,247

  My dear Gustav_Graves, be aware that the world is not as black-and-white as you so wish it to be. Yes, both Snowden and Assange have been supported by Russia and sure enough Russia does this to annoy the US. It does however not mean they're not fighting a good fight. Have Snowden or Assange ever been anti-gay? More likely they're pro-gay. But if they said this, especially Snowden, where could he go to? He might be extradited on a whim. And don't forget that the US still hold people in custody in Cuba without ANY form of process. They created a loophole in their own laws just to break all the humanitarian rules there are.
  
  Don't go blaming Russian anti-gay laws on Snowden or Assange. They have nothing to do with it.
  
  On Assange's alleged rape allegations: Swedish law is extremely strict. Just touching someone in a sexual context can be seen as rape there. Yes, I think he should stand trial (remember he's not convicted at all, we don't know if it's true!) but it should be done in such a way that he gets a fair trial. Same goes for his extradition to the US. But somehow I have the feeling it's going to be really hard to give him a fair trial there.
  
  And again, same goes for Snowden. I think he too should stand trial, but there are quite a few problems with that. American judges are seldomly impartial and politicians have always tried to influence them. The fact that Snowden's actions showed that the US are breaking international laws will not be counted in his favour.
  
  So what you're basically are saying is that these two should hang because they're not helping in a fight you personally find more important. I think that you might feel very ashamed in the future when you find that whilst you were fighting the one fight, the other got lost. Snowden and Assange have, in an odd way, been fighting for democracy. That is imo very important. Gay rights will only be safe in a democracy.
  
  And then on your trust of Western Intelligence: you read the story of the family where the father was looking for backpacks on the internet and the mother checking for pressure cookers? They had a SWAT team in their house because of that.
• SPECTREnr1

  August 2013 Posts: 6

  Kris van der Veen better can fight the silly opinions in our own country about gays than try to change it in other countries. I guess you noticed the heated discussions about gays being treated poorly at our football clubs and such.
  
  I.m.o Your d66 point of view about geo politics isn't right. It's not about democracy, but "special interest" (a.k.a. making money). Intelligence is used for that.
  
  A Russian dissident died in our Dutch jail, very suspicious! We need Russian gas, you get the picture?
  
  
  
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  August 2013 Posts: 8,247

  SPECTREnr1 wrote:

  Kris van der Veen better can fight the silly opinions in our own country about gays than try to change it in other countries. I guess you noticed the heated discussions about gays being treated poorly at our football clubs and such.
  
  I.m.o Your d66 point of view about geo politics isn't right. It's not about democracy, but "special interest" (a.k.a. making money). Intelligence is used for that.
  
  A Russian dissident died in our Dutch jail, very suspicious! We need Russian gas, you get the picture?
  
  

  My dear SPECTREnr1, you under estimate the deadly power of bureaucracy.
  
• SirHenryLeeChaChing

  August 2013 Posts: 3,494

  Dragonpol wrote:

  I personally hate Julian Assange intensely. He should be returned to his country of origin forthwith to face the sexual assault allegations in a court of law. Don't believe in the smokescreen that this is an attempt to silence him by the authorities. That's First Class BS in my book.

  
  I have to agree, the man is truly a criminal in this respect.
  
  Snowden? I actually respect him for thumbing his nose at our intelligence apparatus by showing how little they regard a citizen's right to privacy. I don't have an issue with investigating suspicious characters of foreign or domestic origin, but a good law abiding citizen ought to have the right to know what's being done in the interest of public safety and an explanation for otherwise intruding in areas where they don't belong. There needs to be a clear line drawn between national security and informational privacy. They still treat us like ignoramuses in the face of clear evidence to the contrary such as UFO sightings by massive amounts of people at the same time, offer excuses no one in their right mind would believe, and have policies designed to to ridicule those who would. We're only as free as they want us to be, and our rights are violated or otherwise curtailed on a regular basis. Granted a democracy is preferable to a dictatorship, but there are always strings attached.
  
  Otherwise, not being gay, I have no dog in this fight and no comment.
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 edited August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

  Dragonpol wrote:

  I personally hate Julian Assange intensely. He should be returned to his country of origin forthwith to face the sexual assault allegations in a court of law. Don't believe in the smokescreen that this is an attempt to silence him by the authorities. That's First Class BS in my book.

  
  I have to agree, the man is truly a criminal in this respect.
  
  Snowden? I actually respect him for thumbing his nose at our intelligence apparatus by showing how little they regard a citizen's right to privacy. I don't have an issue with investigating suspicious characters of foreign or domestic origin, but a good law abiding citizen ought to have the right to know what's being done in the interest of public safety and an explanation for otherwise intruding in areas where they don't belong. There needs to be a clear line drawn between national security and informational privacy. They still treat us like ignoramuses in the face of clear evidence to the contrary such as UFO sightings by massive amounts of people at the same time, offer excuses no one in their right mind would believe, and have policies designed to to ridicule those who would. We're only as free as they want us to be, and our rights are violated or otherwise curtailed on a regular basis. Granted a democracy is preferable to a dictatorship, but there are always strings attached.
  
  Otherwise, not being gay, I have no dog in this fight and no comment.

  
  There's one huge difference though between intelligence agencies in the 'old west' (United States, Europe, Canada, Australia, New-Zealand) and the more ruthless secret services operating nowadays in countries like China and Russia.
  
  Watch the German movie 'Das Leben Der Anderen' ('The Live Of Others'). A must-see if you ask me, especially since this discussion is about intelligence services affecting our freedom, our privacy, thus our democracy.
  
  
  The story is about the ruthless East-German sister agency from the KGB, the StaSi. A guy like Snowden, like Assange should watch this movie for a change, then asking themselves if today the CIA, the NSA, the AIVD or MI6 can truly be compared with the East-German StaSi. Well guys, I do know the answer to that.
  
  Do the secret services from the 'old west' invade our privacies, if compared with the East-German StaSi? But off course. Is that something new? Off course not. By jolly, do you really believe we 'westerners' are more sweeter than the average KGB- or FSB-agent? By no means. The only thing that is happening right now is the fact that guys like Manning, Snowden and Assange bring something important to our attention. That is that freedom is not something of certainty....and that it already invades our privacy.
  
  But apart from invading our privacy, do they really invade our freedom? Off course not. And that's the difference between MI6, NSA and CIA on one hand and the KGB (Belarus), FSB (Russia) and Zhong Chan Er Bu (China) on the other hand.
  
  Because the very movie I just mentioned above, is completely forbidden in the 'great' People's Republic Of China. And the death of Aleksandr Litvinenko (was seeking asylum, thus freedom, in the UK) because of Polonium is most certainly a case of getting this 'Russian traitor' out of Mother Russia's harmsway.
  
  And THAT is exactly the thing men like Snowden and Assange must refer to as well. Because all the demonstrations I see on the streets now, blaiming president Obama for all these PRISM-scandals........well really guys.......that's overblown and in my opinion ludicrous!!
  
  The FACT that in this so called 'Old West' we CAN actually demonstrate in freedom is completely forgotten, most importantly by Snowden and Assange! It shows us how our OWN western inventions of freedom, like social media (Facebook, Twitter) and journalism (CNN, Fox News) are exactly destroying the very same kind of freedom!! And guys like Snowden are only enhancing and accelerating the 'decay of real freedom'. Snowden himself doesn't see it this way, because he is too busy with himself and his own narcistic 'vision of freedom'.
  
  Because in the end Snowden gets asylum in a country were demonstrating is completely prohibited (Russia) and where Russian citizens are being chased after by the FSB if they 'defect' to another western country (Aleksandr Litvinenko). And no, this is not 1963, this is 2013 we are talking about. So let us 'westerners' get a grip on ourselves man! We are destroying our own 'western cultural and social cohesion' by letting ourselves become our own little dictators on Facebook and Twitter. Thus destroying our real freedom in the near future and letting countries like Russia and China walk all over the 'old west'. And if we do not act quickly, Russia and China are in to win this 'Second Cold War'.
  
  So my tip to Snowden? Have the guts and balls to demonstrate against Russia too. You are NOW their citizen for one year. Let's see which countries on this planet the real prosecutors are!
• Troy

  August 2013 Posts: 342

  Ah, the perils of watching too much Fox News
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  Troy wrote:

  Ah, the perils of watching too much Fox News

  
  Hahaha, no, by no means. Allthough a channel like Fox News gives you some insight in how we treat or own freedom. Isn't it :-)?
• SirHenryLeeChaChing

  August 2013 Posts: 3,494

  @Gustav- honestly, I'm only concerned with what my government is doing and how it affects me, and not in policing the rest of the world's intelligence communities for the same reasons you are looking at it. Perhaps it's isolationist, but then I do feel we have many people here in need and plenty of pressing domestic issues where our time and money is better spent, rather than spending money on military ventures in places we are neither needed nor wanted.
• 4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars

  August 2013 Posts: 12,480

  It is interesting, though. I'm American so my concerns are mainly there. I try to keep a global perspective in general, though. And now I am living nearer to the east coast of Russia than previously. So I do think about Russia a little more, and definitely China and N. Korea; I am within easy striking distance of them.
• Dragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com

  August 2013 Posts: 18,264

  4EverBonded wrote:

  It is interesting, though. I'm American so my concerns are mainly there. I try to keep a global perspective in general, though. And now I am living nearer to the east coast of Russia than previously. So I do think about Russia a little more, and definitely China and N. Korea; I am within easy striking distance of them.

  
  I think after the hammering that the Japanese gave the Russians in the 1905 Russo-Japanese War you'll be safe enough there, @4EverBonded!
  
• 4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars

  August 2013 Posts: 12,480

  China and N. Korea concern me more, actually.
  Because Hokkaido is so close to Russia, I am sure we (U.S. and Japan) have listening posts throughout. Would only stand to reason.
  
  I agree with GustavGraves, by the way, that there is a huge difference between democracy, even with its faults and privacy issues, and countries that are not democratic.
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  @SirHenryLeeChaChing: Moreover, if you think strictly as an isolationist and solely want to stay focussed on pressing domestic problems, one starts realizing very soon that the current geopolitical climate -Russia, China on the rise as superpowers- actually makes it much harder to tackle all these domestic problems. Thus, making strict isolationism almost nearly impossible. Especially countries like Netherlands, Switzerland and even USA once realized this, as they had to give up their strict politics of neutralism during the 20th century.
• boldfinger

  August 2013 Posts: 5,767

  It´s true that the more private info on the citizens the government has the easier it could mutate into something totalitarian.
  But it´s true also that through platforms like facebook and through using cell phones a majority of those citizens is anyhow offering their privacy up to anyone who wants it, not just their own government, but foreign governments as well, and anyone else interested and equipped with some technical toys.
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  August 2013 Posts: 8,247

  @Gustav what I find fascinating is that you manage to claim Snowden doesn't understand your point of view because he's too obsessed ith himself/his own point of view. Not only isn't that 'hard evidence'or a fair argument, it also proves you're doing exactly the same: promoting your views regardless of sustained arguments.
  
  You remember why so many Dutch Jews were put on transport to concentration camps? Because the Dutch democratic government had collected all this information. When the Nazi's came, they just had to open the files.
  
  You tell me then that there's no thread like that anymore, and I'll tell you that such forces can get to power in a democratic way. Russia is a 'democratic' country these days anyway. But propaganda does a lot.
  
  Then you're claiming especially the US is doing well and NSA's programmes are there to protect the people. This is the same country where blacks still often get higher centenses for the same crime, where gay marriage is only allowed in parts of the country and gays in other parties btter not tell anyone they're gay, for they may not be state-prosecuted, but they will be 'prosecuted'by their neighbours.
  
  p.s. the CIA don't spy at home, that's the FBI's job, and neither does MI6, they leave it to MI5.
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 edited August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  CommanderRoss wrote:

  @Gustav what I find fascinating is that you manage to claim Snowden doesn't understand your point of view because he's too obsessed ith himself/his own point of view. Not only isn't that 'hard evidence' or a fair argument, it also proves you're doing exactly the same: promoting your views regardless of sustained arguments.

  
  I think it's a perfect fair argument to be honest. Am I using WikiLeaks? Am I leaking top secret stuff that should protect nations.....on social media? I think not. Moreover, if you compare my platform -the MI6 forums- with Snowden's platform -strongly enhanced by Russian sympathizers-, you'll see a bit of a difference no?
  
  It's not so much about promoting views in a free and transparent way. It's more about the difficult-to-see causes on a larger, long-term scale. I only wish to point that out. That's a different opinion yes. But am I doing the 'Manning-way' or the 'Assange-way'? Endangering domestic security by actually leaking top secret stuff? I don't think so. What I write here is by no means dangerous to long-term freedom, transparency and democracy.
  
  The biggest danger however is perhaps the fact that he isn't realizing what his vision of transparency and freedom is causing to the transparency and freedom on a larger scale, a supranational scale. That frightens me.
  
  By the way, did you read this article today about Bradley Manning? It only confirms what I was fearing:
  

  Politico wrote:

  Link to the article 'Bradley Manning Apoligizes': http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/bradley-manning-apologizes-95555.html. I hope this makes things clear a bit.

  
  Bradley Manning was a very uncertain, psychologically unstable person. Thus endangering the security of a whole nation. Those are the 'idealists' who can be dangerous when they practise their ideals the easy, less effective way and not the hard, more effective way.
  
  Now you should ask yourself if Bradley Manning will be sentenced to death, like it was done in the recent history within the Soviet Union. Your answer will be 'No'. Manning doesn't need to fear for his life. And most likely his testimony will severely lower the 90 year sentence that he is prosecuted for.
  
  Now if I compare Bradley Manning's poorly executed freedom/transparency actions with those of a true asylumseeker like Alexandr Litvinenko who was even fearing his OWN freedom outside Russia, one can conclude one important thing here:
  
  Russia is even willing to chase their own citizens to death by poisoning them. Bradley Manning does not need to fear that kind of dictatorial antique SMERSH-like prosecution. That's the difference between 'freedom' Manning is talking about and the 'freedom' Litvinenko was seeking.
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  August 2013 Posts: 8,247

  You're absolutely right of course. Who cares if he's locked away for 90 years eh? he might even end up living longer then that, so it's not even a life sentence!
  
  You keep on claiming Manning endangered the security of the US? Tell me, how many people died as a result of his actions? And by the way, how did we leearn the US were committing war crimes in Iraq and Afganisthan?
  
  Getting back to that big picture of yours: how many local Iraqis should be tortured to death to safe a Russian gay person?
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  CommanderRoss wrote:

  You're absolutely right of course. Who cares if he's locked away for 90 years eh? he might even end up living longer then that, so it's not even a life sentence!
  
  You keep on claiming Manning endangered the security of the US? Tell me, how many people died as a result of his actions? And by the way, how did we leearn the US were committing war crimes in Iraq and Afganisthan?
  
  Getting back to that big picture of yours: how many local Iraqis should be tortured to death to safe a Russian gay person?

  
  It's a bigger picture obviously. Manning will most likely not be locked up for 90 years. But since when are we actually questionning or own secret services man??? I think we are plain naive and also arrogant enough to think guys like Manning, Snowden and Assange are our true western saviors.
  
  Have you actually SEEN 'Skyfall'? A movie that perfectly tackles this theme. We need secret services to actually keep our western freedom, democracy and transparency. By jolly, saying that we don't need them means we're denying our entire western past. It means I'm attacking my own prosperity, because believe me.....the Dutch Secret Service knows what eavesdropping/bugging/tracking. Actually, recently our Dutch Foreign Minister admitted that there are bugs in evere office or committee room in the European Parliament!
  
  Diplomats and ambassadors know this. And this will always be a part of foreign politics.....andddd foreign economics. A guy like Manning now realizes what he did. Sadly, Assange doesn't. He thinks leaking more cables and top secret documents is the key to more democracy and freedom. Bullocks. It destroys them!
  
  Regarding freedom.....I'm not the person to put things in black and white, because I know this discussion is as grey and shadowy as it can be. But if you think that sentencing someone to a life in well-equipped prisons is as bad as sentencing someone to death......you need to put an eyeglass on all aspects of freedom. Because if someone dies much more than his/her freedom is taken away. It also takes away your soul and your life! Something you still have once you are in prison for life.
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  To put it in very simple words: Both USA and Russia can be dangerous for freedom, democracy and transparency, but I wanna bet Russia is more dangerous than the USA is right now. That's the point I want to make.
• SaintMark

  August 2013 Posts: 7,653

  Gustav_Graves wrote:

  To put it in very simple words: Both USA and Russia can be dangerous for freedom, democracy and transparency, but I wanna bet Russia is more dangerous than the USA is right now. That's the point I want to make.

  
  I disagree with you as that Russia shows itself currently to be a dangerous ally while the US has been listening in on its allies, allowed their Bankingsystem to be deregulised with all known consequences, the Drones program was outed otherwise we would never have known how outragious the actions taken were. Who needs friends with allies like this.
  
  I disagree that the three you keep mentioning are a danger for democracy and freedom, they pointed out in their various ways that a lot of unsaviour behaviour goes on that people should know about. And WE should know about it.
  
  As for the Dutch goverment, if it got out that the current goverment does not have a clue or and original idea to tackle the crisis it would cost them votes. But as always they rely on outdated ideas and cost our society more and more money. SO anything that is secret about them should be outed as soon as possible. Perhaps people would rise up against them.
  
  
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  August 2013 edited August 2013 Posts: 8,247

  @Gustav I never said that we didn't need intelligence services. I also never claimed that what Manning and Assange are doing is a good thing. All I'm saying is that if you want to fight for gay rights, you have to fight for gay rights, and you should not complain about other people fighting their fights. The fight for more transparancy has nothing to do with gay rights, except for the fact that on top level diplomacy everything is tradable for anything. But as civillian you should never get the two confused, for that's the purpose of such politics.
  
  I'm all for more transparancy, and I think the case the US are making against Manning will only harm them, instead of making them trustworthy. But even though I could keep on talking about this for hours (I work in the field of Information Management with our own Government) I won't. It's too complex and it would bore the hell out of many people. When I've written it all down, if I ever want to, i'll let you know.
  
  edit august 19th. And just to show you how 'friendly' Western services are:
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23750289
  
  Don't forget that these services are run by people, and though I do agree they generally do good work, they should also be kept in check.
• WillyGalore

  August 2013 Posts: 6,396

  Whilst not directly related to the topic in question, this current story doing the rounds is pretty shocking.
  
  As a Brit myself, I am really quite uncomfortable with how the British authorities have conducted themselves in this instance:
  
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23761918
• chrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm

  August 2013 Posts: 17,789

  Governments have laws in place to make sure that should they initiate or allow an illegal activity or event, they have impunity and/or plausible deniability. They can break the law lawfully. Whistleblowers, however, may not.
• Gustav_Graves

  August 2013 Posts: 11,119

  News today reported that Manning will be sentenced to prison for the duration of 35 years: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/bradley-manning-sentencing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
  
  It's more or less what I expected. I heard figures like '90 years', '60 years' or even 'prison for life'/ Nothing like that has happened. 35 years is perfect, considering his own psycological circumstances. But for Manning this will feel like a severe punishment. As he should be.....
• Matt_Helm

  August 2013 Posts: 908

  Gustav_Graves wrote:

  News today reported that Manning will be sentenced to prison for the duration of 35 years: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/bradley-manning-sentencing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
  
  It's more or less what I expected. I heard figures like '90 years', '60 years' or even 'prison for life'/ Nothing like that has happened. 35 years is perfect, considering his own psycological circumstances. But for Manning this will feel like a severe punishment. As he should be.....

  
  Could you please stop commenting on things you obviously lack the depth of Intellect and Knowledge to do so. I refrained posting on this thread untill now (mainly because I think this is probably the wrong Place to discuss such a sensitive matter and I'm getting enough flack already for my opinions). But the self-righteousness and ignorance you are diplaying is simply unbearable. After all this Manning only wanted crimes to be known (or how else would you call the intentional killing of civilists out of a heli "just for Fun"). It is not that he applied to spy for Russia or whomever. No one disputes that we need Intelligence Agencys (at least I don't) but nowadays their sole reason d'etre seems to spy on their OWN PEOPLE , to fail and to cover up those failures. You probably doubt,but whenever something happens (take for example 9.11, London or Boston bombings ...) we learn afterwards that they had had all the Information needed to prevent them, but were simply to dumb (or even worse) to recognize it. Hell,the russians even called to inform them about the elder of the two Boston guys and they weren't able to something and all guys like you are doing is standing by and applaude them for breaking the law and worse. It is simply annoying (if not worse)!!!
• DarthDimi Behind you!Moderator

  August 2013 Posts: 24,161

  Matt_Helm wrote:

  Could you please stop commenting on things you obviously lack the depth of Intellect and Knowledge to do so. I refrained posting on this thread untill now (mainly because I think this is probably the wrong Place to discuss such a sensitive matter and I'm getting enough flack already for my opinions). But the self-righteousness and ignorance you are diplaying is simply unbearable.

  
  @Matt_Helm, "I'm getting enough flack already for my opinions" makes sense if you read your post. @Gustav_Graves does his saying without getting personal to anyone here on the forum. Then you drop by to accuse him of being dumb and uninformed, self-righteously moralistic and uneducated. Do you merely expect Gustav_Graves to respond to you in equal terms or do you really want him to, that's what I'm wondering. Why don't you start by saying "I disagree and here's why" and then proceed to your more or less impersonal statements, instead of spending the first half of your post being very condescending and provocative towards another member.
  
• WillyGalore

  August 2013 Posts: 6,396

  I fear you're just wasting your breath @DarthDimi